10 man or 20 man Legion Tactical

[TheWarmaster]

I'm playing around with lists for my Sons of Horus army.
I can't decide whether to run 2x 20 man tac squads, or 4x 10 man tac squads.
What're your thoughts?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I think 2 ×10 and 1x 20 would also be an option. Just depends on how you plan to load them out. Taking 10 man squads opens up taking rhinos.

[LameBeard]

1x10, 2x15

Seriously though, we could have fun with this all day.  Generally I admire those with the patience to build big squads, and the slight discount and the way buffs might be applied (like apothecaries) become better on big squads. But sometimes all you are doing is leaving a juicy target for some AP3 monster.

Will you have anything else with “line”?How big a list are you building? Any good legion synergy?

[MARK0SIAN]

For me it would depend on if you’re giving the 10 man squads rhinos. If you are then I’d say at least 2 X 10 man squads in rhinos would be good with either a single 20 man squad or two more 10 man squads in rhinos.

If you’re planning to footslog them I’d go for 20 man squads. The 20 man squads I’ve used have been much better than when I’ve run 2 x 10 man squads without rhinos. 

[suxdavide]

I'd rather diversify the choices.

In my WB I'm planning to run 1x20 Tac and 1x20 Despoilers ( in order to maximize the benefit around the dark channeling upgrade) but in general I'm not fond on spamming the same unit (2x is a crime, 4x...)

[Xenith]

It's such a shame that we don't get point discounts with tactical marines, otherwise 20 man every day. I'd be in the 1x20 2x10 camp also. 10 men feels like too few in this edition, they'll die if anything looks their way, but the 20 man blob becomes something your opponent has to deal with so might take heat from the 10 man units. If you go 20, get some chain bayonets in there also. 

[Lord Krungharr]

If you have a Kharybdis w 20 Tacticals, that would open up some other options....and keep them safe for a major dakka opportunity at some point.  Get them places too.  

[arnesh88]

More than 1 blob of marines will likely lead to frustrating and difficult moving on tables with a decent amount of terrain. They'll clog up lanes if you're not careful, slowing most of your army. Even if you place faster units like tanks in front of them, some of them will likely get wrecked causing more bottlenecks.

[The Scorpion]

On 10/8/2022 at 9:53 PM, TheWarmaster said:

I'm playing around with lists for my Sons of Horus army.
I can't decide whether to run 2x 20 man tac squads, or 4x 10 man tac squads.
What're your thoughts?

4×10 is perhaps redundant.

 

I'd run 3x10 with Rhinos

[Noserenda]

What do you want to do with them? 

If they are there purely as scoring slot fillers keep them small and flexible.

If you are investing in Apothecaries, Centurions and other buffs you are better off going for 15 most of the time but 20 can work depending on how dense your terrain setups are :) 

[TheWarmaster]

So, for those asking, I've got a 5,000pt list I'm playing with.. 

SoH -Black Reaving 

Horus + 10 Justaerin in a Spartan 

Maloghurst + 5 Cataphractii in a Proteus

Master of Signals + 5 Cataphractii in a Proteus

2x3 Javelins

2x Contemptor Dreads

2x20 man Tactical squads with Chain Bayonets

Legion Falchion Super Heavy

Edited October 23, 2022 by TheWarmaster

[Gorgoff]

8 hours ago, TheWarmaster said:

So, for those asking, I've got a 5,000pt list I'm playing with.. 

SoH -Black Reaving 

Horus + 10 Justaerin in a Spartan 

Maloghurst + 5 Cataphractii in a Proteus

Master of Signals + 5 Cataphractii in a Proteus

2x3 Javelins

2x Contemptor Dreads

2x20 man Tactical squads with Chain Bayonets

Legion Falchion Super Heavy

Three line units in a 5000 points game? 

[SlickSamos]

 

9 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Three line units in a 5000 points game? 

Wouldn't it be four if Horus and Maloghurst's squads are Retinue? 

 

But in this case presented above 2x10 Tacticals in Rhinos and one larger one (say 15 man) for the back field seems like a better idea than 2x20 as the list is mechanised.

 

One thing not discussed has been Rhino Tactical Squads vs Rhino Despoiler Squads. Perhaps as Sons of Horus they could be the better option given that their legion special rules are now more to do with CC than short ranged fire fights?

[Gorgoff]

On 10/24/2022 at 4:23 PM, SlickSamos said:

 

Wouldn't it be four if Horus and Maloghurst's squads are Retinue? 

 

Horus isn't line and neither are Justarians.

Mals unit I already counted in. That's three line in 5k which is way to few line units. The enemy just needs to blast them and wins every mission wirh objectives. 

On 10/24/2022 at 4:23 PM, SlickSamos said:

But in this case presented above 2x10 Tacticals in Rhinos and one larger one (say 15 man) for the back field seems like a better idea than 2x20 as the list is mechanised.

 

One thing not discussed has been Rhino Tactical Squads vs Rhino Despoiler Squads. Perhaps as Sons of Horus they could be the better option given that their legion special rules are now more to do with CC than short ranged fire fights?

Since you can't charge disembarking from a Rhino Despoilers make not so much sense. 

[SlickSamos]

2 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Horus isn't line and neither are Justarians.

Justaerians may be taken as retinue where one model may take a banner for a couple of points making them line.  So four... 

 

2 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Since you can't charge disembarking from a Rhino Despoilers make not so much sense. 

I agree they aren't amazing but I think they are better than you give credit for.

 

They can still fire with pistols (Tacs with 20 Bolter shots deal 2.2 wounds vs meq, Despoilers with 8 Bolt Pistols and 2 Plasma Pistols deal 1.7 wounds).

Obvs that if the Tactical Sergeant takes a Combi-Plasma then their effectiveness goes way up to an average of 3.0 wounds, but then if the Despoiler Sergeant also takes a Plasma then their average hits 2.0. 

 

So for holding an objective Tacticals are better but for taking an objective Despoilers seem better if equiped for anti MEQ (the 2 Power Mauls in the squad will deal 2.5 wounds on the charge, not accounting for the chainswords and sergeant's weapon). 

[Gorgoff]

Ten despoilers will certainly die on their way to an objective the enemy holds. I don't see them being very useful in a 5000 points game.

 

Those two death stars must do the heavy lifting and if their transports get destroyed early on its gonna be a hard walk. 

[The Scorpion]

On 10/23/2022 at 10:35 PM, TheWarmaster said:

So, for those asking, I've got a 5,000pt list I'm playing with.. 

SoH -Black Reaving 

Horus + 10 Justaerin in a Spartan 

Maloghurst + 5 Cataphractii in a Proteus

Master of Signals + 5 Cataphractii in a Proteus

2x3 Javelins

2x Contemptor Dreads

2x20 man Tactical squads with Chain Bayonets

Legion Falchion Super Heavy

If your Justaerin and recular Cataphractii aren't outflanking, and you aren't fielding Reavers, why not switch to Pride of the Legion?

 

Justaerin and termies become Line, and you can do away with the tactical troop tax and the Master of Signals.

Your only FA slot can still be used for Javelins.

 

Rites of War have a theme. If you wanna play with terminators as your anchor, I see no point in taking a RoW that isn't geared towards them.

Edited October 26, 2022 by The Scorpion

[SkimaskMohawk]

5000 points is large enough where you can blast enemy scoring units/contest objectives, and maybe juice secondary kill points. 

 

Look at the ops list. A falchion, a Horus death star, contemptors, 6 javelins, spartan, Land Raider, more terminators; it just needs to kill stuff in the correct order. 

[The Scorpion]

Deathstars are a waste of points imho.

I did the math for a Lorgar deathstar with Kor Phaeron. (given how Kor has rules that interact with lorgar hinting that they are meant to be fielded together)

 

Just the 2 characters, plus a Spartan filled with regular termies comes at nearly 2000pts or something like that.

Now imagine Horus + Abaddon + legion specific Justaerin on a Spartan.

 

Not worth it. Not in my opinion anyways. You will destroy whatever you send them at, but that is 3VP at most, 4VP if captured from the cold dead hands of a squad with the enemy warlord.

Meanwhile, the brick costs you half the army or more.

Edited October 27, 2022 by The Scorpion

[Gorgoff]

56 minutes ago, The Scorpion said:

Deathstars are a waste of points imho.

I did the math for a Lorgar deathstar with Kor Phaeron. (given how Kor has rules that interact with lorgar hinting that they are meant to be fielded together)

 

Just the 2 characters, plus a Spartan filled with regular termies comes at nearly 2000pts or something like that.

Now imagine Horus + Abaddon + legion specific Justaerin on a Spartan.

 

Not worth it. Not in my opinion anyways. You will destroy whatever you send them at, but that is 3VP at most, 4VP if captured from the cold dead hands a squad with the enemy warlord.

Meanwhile, the brick costs you half the army or more.

You get a "Please delete this unit" Squad way cheaper as well, so not a fan either.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Death stars have merit based on the strategy and the ratio of points available/spent.

 

They're particularly good in kill point and low objective missions, and for forcing a large commitment from your opponent. A primarch is kind of a win condition for both players, so it behoves you to bodyguard and play the wound allocation game. 

 

For 5000, having ~1500 in one unit is hardly a deal breaker. Then you look at the amount of missions with kill points and the primaries and you realize that only shatter strike punishes having a few big units. The rest really don't; Dominion has the objectives close together for easy chain contests with the Justaerin brick, war of lies averages 1vp per objective and has kill points as a primary, onslaught is perfect for them, ride of carnage is perfect for them, blood feud is perfect for them.

 

That lorgar example is probably not one where the ratio works. Its also not really the best way to use him since you're missing the 4+ FNP from taking a cataphractii retinue. Between the primarch and kor phaeton you can juggle wounds and try and regrow them through it will not die and the 4++, while also beating up on pretty much anything. And for 1300 including their spartan you can use that 700 on other things. 

 

[TheWarmaster]

So, is it worth dropping from 2x3 Javelins, down to 2x2 Javelins.. and splitting the 2x20 man foot-slogging tac squads into 4x10 Rhino mounted tac squads? 

 

Which is better? 2 big foot slogging squads and 6 javelins?

Or 4 regular rhino mounted squads and 4 javelins? 

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by TheWarmaster

[Lord Krungharr]

On 10/31/2022 at 12:32 AM, TheWarmaster said:

So, is it worth dropping from 2x3 Javelins, down to 2x2 Javelins.. and splitting the 2x20 man foot-slogging tac squads into 4x10 Rhino mounted tac squads? 

 

Which is better? 2 big foot slogging squads and 6 javelins?

Or 4 regular rhino mounted squads and 4 javelins? 

 

If the 2 foot slogging squads have Apothecaries and Vexillas, I think they'd be alright....though I do favor 4  units in Rhinos, also with Apothecaries if points are available for any.  Not sure what bonuses the Sons of Horus get though, might be something that keeps them alive or braver than usual?  Rhinos kinda stink but are pretty cheap and offer more protection, and sometimes depending on terrain it's easier to hide a rhino than 20 dudes, especially after it goes flat out to get behind something bigger.