Book Bloat (and marine supplements?)

[Wulf Vengis]

Good points all around. I can't say i argue with too many of them. However I do feel that the non-compliant chapters would benefit from breaking loose out of the standard codex.

 

I don't see any reason that BA BT DA DW and SW should share any of the standard codex special abilities/stratagems. Each chapter should be/feel fully unique to themselves even if the unit name/stats are the same. Should the BA have "bolter drill" and the other sm abilities from the basic dex? No, they've got red thirst/black rage and I feel they should replace those other standard abilities with one's unique and original to them.

 

When it comes to faq/updates there's also no reason that when they release an update to a unit the update can't simply say:

"this update applies to aggressors within the following codecies: BA BT DA DW SM SW".

 

Honestly in my heart of hearts part of me would like to see one codex to rule them all. One massive Codex Astartes if you will. Like you said a book similar in size to the core rulebook. That contains each chapter fully within its covers. (I know "how contradictory of me right?)

 

But there needs to be clear and obvious delineation of similar units across different chapters and currently I feel that it fails that in practice. 

 

* I realize I'm claiming I'm for less bloat but I'm arguing for a system that creates more bloat. But I think bloat CAN be ok if it's organized and catalogued neatly. Simplifying the method of traversing the bloat would make it seem less...well bloaty.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Wulf Vengis

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The irony is that people have wanted separate supplements for years.

[Halandaar]

1 hour ago, Wulf Vengis said:

I don't see any reason that BA BT DA DW and SW should share any of the standard codex special abilities/stratagems. Each chapter should be/feel fully unique to themselves even if the unit name/stats are the same. Should the BA have "bolter drill" and the other sm abilities from the basic dex? No, they've got red thirst/black rage and I feel they should replace those other standard abilities with one's unique and original to them.

 

I'm struggling to really pin down my own opinion on which way is right, but ultimately I feel that GWs quest to make all the Space Marine chapters feel like distinct factions whilst also allowing them access to the entire pool of Astartes units and abilities is exactly what has caused the bloat problem here.

 

If you look at Death Guard and Thousand Sons for example, those armies are very significantly divergent from the core Chaos Space Marine army list, with their own bespoke units in a lot of slots but also restricted access to "core" units from the CSM book. As a result both of those armies feel different not only from general CSM but also from each other, and having standalone Codexes with bespoke rules that support that feels right.

 

At the complete opposite end of the scale you have stuff like Eldar Craftworlds, where what should be wildly different cultures (which grew in millennia-long isolation from each other) all use the exact same pool of units. An Iyanden army should feel radically different from a Saim Hann army, yet they only have a single craftworld trait, warlord trait, relic and stratagem each to differentiate themselves. Perhaps silliest of all, despite Eldar being the undisputed masters of the warp in the 40k galaxy, they all share a single pool of powers while Space Marine chapters somehow get a bespoke psychic discipline each.

 

Space Marine chapters seem to get the best of both here; there are basically no drawbacks in terms of options to choosing BA or DA or whatever. You retain access to pretty much the entire Marine roster as well as it's stratagems and relics and whatnot, and then get a bunch more options thrown on top.  

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yet geedub has admitted Space Marines overall are performing poorly and need help with the coming data slate. So basically you need good options.

[Noserenda]

More divergent marines would be good but really its going to be additional units rather than missing ones (unless they are really divergent like the Wolves) because at the end of the day they are all drawing from the same larger industrial base unlike their Chaos compatriots who have a vastly smaller and often more specialised "supply chain" involving the evr fickle Chaos gods :D 

Eldar should definitely be more divergent, like all the factions should be and one good bit of bloat over the last few years has been proper sub factions for almost every army because they all have at least as much distinction as marines.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I feel like we are getting there. Look at the choices now compared to say fifth edition.

[DesuVult]

I like the idea of codex+supplement but I feel that should be it.  No codex+supplement+WD AoR type of stuff.  I also feel chapters currently lacking special units should get some.  Primaris phalanx warders or something for IF as an example and non-marines could grt more supplements for stuff.

[Halandaar]

2 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Yet geedub has admitted Space Marines overall are performing poorly and need help with the coming data slate. So basically you need good options.

 

This isn't even remotely relevant.

[Wulf Vengis]

I believe BBF is implying that there is another bit of bloat on the way for space marines.

 

I also agree whole heartedly that the Eldar Craftworlds need some supplement love. Take us back to a time like 3rd even the Eldar had codex then had a supplement for Craftworlds. They are a perfect example of an army that needs a main codex and a few supplements.

 

Heck tau and Orks could use that treatment too, and throw Nids in there with Hivefleet supplements.

 

In fact there isn't a faction in 40k that couldn't use this treatmentof main codex and supplement follow-up.

 

And again yes this creates more bloat but as I said beefier if it's all done and organized well it won't feel like boat.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Wulf Vengis

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The data slate has saved the game. We can just paint everything new as more bloat but that is the most simple interpretation (i.e., easiest to comprehend) and not necessarily correct.

[Special Officer Doofy]

58 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

The data slate has saved the game. We can just paint everything new as more bloat but that is the most simple interpretation (i.e., easiest to comprehend) and not necessarily correct.

 

There is a big difference though from a printable pdf balance because GW can't balance their own game and hiding faction rules in a campaign book or white dwarf you have to pay for and lug around that only has a page or two you need. Not putting faction rules in things like those is for the best, and I'm happy GW has learned from their mistakes and announced no more faction rules in campaign books.

 

As far as marine supplements go, I have no horse in that race and never will. But I have seen about equal amounts who wanted to be special and have a supplement versus wanting one big book. Can't please everyone I suppose.

[Dark Shepherd]

I can see there being more chance of a second marine codex. Or a supplement omnibus covering a few chapters coming out mid edition

 

Its a guaranteed seller, they dont have to worry about 2 or 3 supplements selling badly or jacking up uniform price. Also they can release generic units alongside it as the cash in

 

I could also be inferring way too much into their recent new more community friendly approach as well as taking faction rules out of campaign books

 

Given theyve a 1000 datasheets to balance and a new edition every 3 years plus seasons, maybe not having to do an extra 6 sets of psychic powers, strats, warlord traits, relics etc would appeal to them