Why are the Legions numbered so?

[Valkyrion]

Has it ever been said anywhere why the White Scars are 5th or Sons of Horus 16th etc?

The irony of ALPHA being last isn't lost on me, but what about the rest?

[Captain Idaho]

The Legion numbers coincide with the number of the Primarch as created by the Emperor. 

 

The Emperor utilised the 1st Legion first as his very first Astartes, but I think he commissioned the other Legions as he located the Primarchs, though it us unclear.

 

An old Index Astartes article remarks that the Emperor created a Legion shortly before finding their Primarch, though I can't for the life of me remember which Legion article that was 

 

Note, contradicting what I've mentioned (so probably replaced somewhat) is the history of some Legions that never had a Primarch at the time. The Imperial Fists, Warborn (Pre-Ultramarines) and Word Bearers were involved in the pacification of Lunar from the Gene Cults, which was early Crusade. This means they were either created especially for this action or the Emperor had many of the Legions already created in this moment.

 

Pragmatically, I imagine the Emperor would create a Legion as he required them, which would likely be numerical if purely numbers were needed. He'd most probably interrupt that if he found a Primarch and needed their Legion. 

[Dagoth Ur]

17 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

The Legion numbers coincide with the number of the Primarch as created by the Emperor. 

 

The Emperor utilised the 1st Legion first as his very first Astartes, but I think he commissioned the other Legions as he located the Primarchs, though it us unclear.

 

An old Index Astartes article remarks that the Emperor created a Legion shortly before finding their Primarch, though I can't for the life of me remember which Legion article that was 

 

Note, contradicting what I've mentioned (so probably replaced somewhat) is the history of some Legions that never had a Primarch at the time. The Imperial Fists, Warborn (Pre-Ultramarines) and Word Bearers were involved in the pacification of Lunar from the Gene Cults, which was early Crusade. This means they were either created especially for this action or the Emperor had many of the Legions already created in this moment.

 

Pragmatically, I imagine the Emperor would create a Legion as he required them, which would likely be numerical if purely numbers were needed. He'd most probably interrupt that if he found a Primarch and needed their Legion. 

 

I think this has been superseded by newer lore about a decade or so ago. Current lore (Blackbooks, most SM and CSM Codizes and the HH Novels) has it that by the end of the Unification Wars, all legions had been created and had set out to wage war. Some legions simply spent longer without a primarch than others.

 

As for numbering, I don't think it's ever explicitly explained but it stands to reason to assume that the legions were numbered after the numerical ordering of the primarchs, which in turn probably reflects the order in which they had been created.

[Karhedron]

I think most (if not all) Legions were established well before the discover of their Primarchs. Sometimes there was friction between the Terran veterans of particular legions and the new influx from the Primarchs' homeworlds as they were discovered. Some of the old Forgeworld books explain more about the Legions before their Primarchs were found. Here is some of the known pre-Primarch fluff.

 

1. Dark Angels. The original Legion and spearheaded the launch of the Great Crusade

2. Unknown

3. Emperor's Children. Nearly destroyed by geneseed faults in their early days. Legion was stabilised when Fulgrim was found and fresh geneseed was extracted from him.

4. Iron Warriors. Perturabo was apparently disappointed by the state of the Legion when he took command and ordered 1/10 be culled.

5. White Scars.

6. Space Wolves. The Legion Master in the early days of the GC was Enoch Rathvin. Horus regarded him as a proud warrior but knelt before Russ and swore fealty to him at their first meeting.

7. Imperial Fists. Not much known about their pre-Dorn exploits.

8. Night Lords. Not much info pre-Curze but it is commented that the criminal intake from Nostromo was felt to have corrupted the Legion. This implies they were less brutal beforehand.

9. Blood Angels. Had a reputation as savage and degenerate killers before Sanguinius was found and helped rehabiltate them.

10. Iron Hands. Not much info.

11. Unknown

12. World Eaters. Known as the Warhounds prior to the discovery of Angron

13. Ultramarines. Legion Commander Gren Vosotho apparently distained naming the Legion while he was in command. They were named Ultramarines in honor of Ultramar, Guilliman's stellar empire.

14. Death Guard. These were known as the Dusk Raiders prior to the finding of Mortarion. The early legion recruited heavily from Albia (Britain) on Terra.

15 Thousand Sons. Were highly susceptible to the genetic mutation (the Flesh Curse) prior to their reunification with Magnus.

16. Luna Wolves. Named in honour of their role in the pacificiation of Luna pior to the start of the GC.

17. Word Bearers. Were named the Imperial Heralds prior to the finding of Lorgar

18. Salamanders. Had a well established reputation for self-sacrifice prior to finding Vulkan. Vulkan's first mission involved him leading a large contingent of new Promethian Marines to reinforce the Terran veterans in a major campaign against the Orks. Vulkan commented that the 2 sets of Marines were like metals that were alloyed and then forged in battle to create something stronger.

19. Raven Guard. The Raven Guard were used as infiltration specialists during the Unification wars on terra and recruited heavily from the Asiatic dustfields. They spent much time supporting the Luna Wolves prior to the finding of Corax.

20. Alpha Legion. The Alpharius Primarch novel hints that the Alpha Legion were actually the first legion to be founded (hence the name). The reason is that when the Primarchs were scattered, Alpharius's pod crash-landed back on Terra and he (not Horus) was the first Primarch found. The Alpha Legion kept mainly to the Shadows until the discovery of Omegon when they were officially unvieled. This is the orgin of the comment about the Emperor founding the Alpha Legion shortly before Alpharius' finding. It should be noted that some of the stuff in this book is considered untrustworthy since it is supposedly written by Alpharius himself.

 

So most, if not all, the Legions had significant histories prior to finding their Primarch.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Karhedron

[SlickSamos]

I don't think the numbers did reflect the order the legions were created, the First were first and the Last might have been last, but they're the sneaky boys, so no one knows... Maybe they are in their gene sires' order though. Or the Emperor has dyscalculia. One of the two...

 

Just to fill in the blank above w.r.t. White Scars, they were the pioneers who I believe were sent out of the Sol system before it was brought to compliance. 

Also Thousand Sons did indeed have the Fish Curse XD

 

W.r.t. the Solar compliance 

Salamanders did fight during Terra Unification wars (notable campaign of subterranean warfare I think, and were almost annihilated)

Imperial Fists are recorded fighting across the moons of Jupiter/Saturn 

Blood Angels were definitely on Terra, got their name the Immortal Ninth during their campaigns there with the ability to turn rad-waste mutant humans into angelic Astartes.

Ultramarines and one other were also involved in the Luna campaign along side the soon-to-be named Luna Wolves. 

Do listen to Oculus Imperia's summary of the Great Crusade here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9tzRUFMzndYGMETqi_y9s0Ald7SlOEp8 it will be worth your time as I think it is the best summary of that era that I've come across 

Edited October 13, 2022 by SlickSamos
Mobile phone keyboard did not play ball

[Captain Idaho]

Ultramarines were definitely given the moniker "the Warborn" prior to being called Ultramarines. They fought in support of the Iron Hands I believe and interestingly enough were referred to as a new and undermanned Legion initially, so it's important to note that the Legions weren't all at full strength at the same time.

 

I believe the Legions who were rewarded by adaption by the Gene Cults on Lunar were the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Luna Wolves. All were much smaller than what they would later become.

[Runefyre]

We do know that 6th, 18th, and 20th legions were developed separately as part of the trefoil, which makes their legion numeral even more confusing. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

"We're at number seven sire, what about six?"

 

How did you know!

[SlickSamos]

Oh gosh yeah, I'm convinced the Emperor has dyscalculia now... (Or more realistically multiple writers over a long period of time prioritising the rule of cool has meant that there isn't a system)

[Xenith]

34 minutes ago, Runefyre said:

We do know that 6th, 18th, and 20th legions were developed separately as part of the trefoil, which makes their legion numeral even more confusing. 

 

The legions from primarch genestock 6, 18 and 20 were developed together.

 

As Idaho says, they're numbered after the numbers the primarchs were given. 

[lansalt]

The legion numbers and names were stablished 30+ years ago during the RT-2nd ed. era. They clearly didn't give the numbers much meaning beyond vague references (XIII roman legion for UM, XIXth century for RG...)

[STC Logis Engine]

The legions carry the numeric designation of their primarchs, ie their order of inception in the Primarch project. The first legion is the first because their geenseed was created from the genetic template of the first primarch and so on.
The first Legion was then the first raised to combat strenght to prototype the tactical and organisational format for an Astartes Legion ie the "Principia Bellicrosa" mentioned within the source material.

[Brother_Angelus]

14 hours ago, Karhedron said:

8. Night Lords. Not much info pre-Curze but it is commented that the criminal intake from Nostromo was felt to have corrupted the Legion. This implies they were less brutal beforehand.

It's strongly suggested in the NL trilogy that terran Night Lords were just as brutal, and fulfilled the role of terror troops, even before the discovery of Curze/intake of Nostroman initiates. What changed was the purpose/motivation of the brutality. Nostromans no longer sought to terrorise worlds into submission to the imperium, or use fear as a tool to leverage compliance of imperial worlds. They hunted the weak for sport, because they were strong. They terrorized and killed simply because they could.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Brother_Angelus

[LameBeard]

It is implied by Magnus, in one of the stories, that the number 7 (Nurgle’s sacred number) dominates Mortarion’s fate. But of course his legion number is 2 times 7, not 7.

 

That they are the 1st seems to be a source of pride to the Dark Angels, and that in turn seems to be a source of irritation to some others, but apart from that I can’t see any legions really thinking about their numbers at all.

[Gorgoff]

In one book it is meantioned that the Thunderwarriors Legions were also numbered.

Never change a working system. 

[Pacific81]

On 10/13/2022 at 2:18 PM, lansalt said:

The legion numbers and names were stablished 30+ years ago during the RT-2nd ed. era. They clearly didn't give the numbers much meaning beyond vague references (XIII roman legion for UM, XIXth century for RG...)

 

Yes if we're going back to the fluff-writing reasons this is it exactly - Rick Priestley, massive history buff, has commented on on it being based on the Roman Legions. The concept is based on the late Republican-era practice of the numerals for the Legion, a 'nickname' and icon representing them. There are a few references in history of real life Roman Legions such as a 'Ferrata' (iron) legion, one with a wolf's head, a lightning bolt, which you have to think were used for coming up with some of the concepts when they were just a name on a page. 

 

Another obvious one is the lost legions (the Roman Legions that were destroyed and had their name/number 'scrubbed') or even the concept of the Horus Heresy, which again has the precedent in history of instances of Roman Generals having their own Legion and then using them to wage civil war against Rome.

 

It might be interesting for someone thats both a keen historian and really into the game & background to look for other references and titbits, im sure there are a lot more!

[MARK0SIAN]

Expanding on what Gorgoff says, it’s hinted at in the Valdor novel that not only were the thunder warrior legions also numbered but that their particular specialisations were also the same as the space marine legions. For example the IV legion of thunder warriors were also siege specialists just like the iron warriors.

This might hint that the numbers simply followed the previous system.

[Gorgoff]

On 10/15/2022 at 1:57 PM, MARK0SIAN said:

Expanding on what Gorgoff says, it’s hinted at in the Valdor novel that not only were the thunder warrior legions also numbered but that their particular specialisations were also the same as the space marine legions. For example the IV legion of thunder warriors were also siege specialists just like the iron warriors.

This might hint that the numbers simply followed the previous system.

Thanks for elaborating what I meant.

[lost_angel]

On 10/14/2022 at 4:21 PM, LameBeard said:

It is implied by Magnus, in one of the stories, that the number 7 (Nurgle’s sacred number) dominates Mortarion’s fate. But of course his legion number is 2 times 7, not 7.

 

That they are the 1st seems to be a source of pride to the Dark Angels, and that in turn seems to be a source of irritation to some others, but apart from that I can’t see any legions really thinking about their numbers at all.

I seem to recall some background fluff for the crimson slaughter 40k renegades that mentioned the modern day blood angels and dark angels had a bit of an etiquette dispute with them because of this before they turned traitor.

Edited October 18, 2022 by lost_angel

[jaxom]

On 10/13/2022 at 5:55 AM, Captain Idaho said:

The Legion numbers coincide with the number of the Primarch as created by the Emperor. 

 

There was definitely an order to their creation, but the current mystery is how much of their development was concurrent versus linear. Mostly concurrent makes more sense based on the few glimpses of the Primarch Project we've had in The First Heretic, Valdor, and HH: Crusade (Crusade stands out as it suggested Lion El'Jonson was developed first and the other primarchs were more concurrent). Linear, however, makes a lot more sense from an R&D perspective and from a trait perspective.

 

This next bit is supposition. The first primarch was the all-around prototype. Primarch 3 was the scalpel. Primarch 4 was the siege-breaker. Primarch 5 was the scout and outrider. Primarchs 1-5 cover all the military bases. Primarch 6 was an experiment that didn't quite go right, so Primarch 7 was a return to form, double-checking the process (hence the similarities between 4 and 7). Primarch 7 was a success so they went back to experimentation. Primarchs 8 and 9 were developed at the same time: one to predict what could go wrong and one to predict to how things could turn out in general. They were also experiments in exaggerating the effect of gene-code. The 8th were mental indoctrination: Primarch 8 had a built in knowledge-base of law (see the Kurze novella) and that was supposed to be passed into the gene-line, and it kind of worked. The 9th were physical indoctrination: see every reference to the transformative power of the 9th legion gene-seed. They were considered partial successes, so there's another return to form with Primarch 10, another all-arounder and success, so back to experimentation. Primarch 12 was supposed to be an empath, perhaps a Primarch-Diplomat par excellence? The gene-line issue was classic, "I've never studied psychology," Emperor-consequences and we see an perfect example of an insular group of us-or-them empaths who dissociate their enemies from being people. Primarch 13 was another attempt at Primarch 8, but without the pskyer-aspect, and this time it worked. The 13th's gene-seed was indoctrination in a bottle. Primarchs 14-17 are all tweaks on previous experiments. Primarch 14 is Primarch 5, but with less independence and hardier. Primarch 15 was supposed to be Primarch 9, but without the ... physical issues. To no real surprise, the psyker aspect continued to have unforeseen consequences, but those weren't known until after the project was complete. Primarch 17 is a blend of Primarchs 9 and 12; better able to connect with others and good gene-seed indoctrination (see The First Heretic), still slightly psychic. Big question here: how accurate is the latest Horus on Cthonia short story? If it is not accurate, then Primarch 16 and 17 may have been developed in the same way, but one intended more a general and the other as a diplomat.

 

On 10/13/2022 at 8:37 AM, Runefyre said:

We do know that 6th, 18th, and 20th legions were developed separately as part of the trefoil, which makes their legion numeral even more confusing. 

 

Some more supposition (and remember, the trefoil was labeled as such long after the Primarch Project was done). Primarchs 18-20 are the special considerations. Successes with Primarchs 14-17 see Primarch 6 re-examined and repurposed. Primarch 18 becomes the stop-gap, deploy in case of emergency in any environment, hold on until Primarch 6 can arrive to decapitate the problem. How does one know Primarch 18 is needed? Keep watch with Primarch 19. If the latest Horus on Cthonia short story is accurate, then Primarch 20 was most likely developed as an intelligence hub to coordinate Primarchs 6, 18, and 19. However, with the way things played out (according to the latest Horus on Cthonia short story and the Alpharius novella) Primarch 20 was re-tasked based on immediate, emergency circumstances. Primarch 18 was re-tasked as well, due to the issues that arose with Primarch 12 and Primarch 18's upbringing. Primarch 19 was re-tasked due to issues with his upbringing. So the original trinity was supposed to be a tetranity, but we ended up with a trefoil because of the loss of the primarchs.

 

On 10/13/2022 at 6:30 AM, Karhedron said:

I think most (if not all) Legions were established well before the discover of their Primarchs.

 

Correct. Even disregarding the Alpharius novella, other sources state the 20th legion had at least an alpha-intake -approximately a chapter prior to the primarch being discovered/revealed. The 18th legion took part in the later Solar Crusades and the 19th legion was notably active under the leadership of Horus Lupercal, prior to Corax's rediscovery. The only other legion I cannot think of as explicitly active in one of the Solar Crusades, but active prior to the primarch being found is the 17th legion. I think it was implied somewhere?

 

 

[SlickSamos]

I think your proposition of what happened almost makes sense except how would they know that X or Y were a success / had issues before moving onto the next one?  

 

Really interesting analysis though!  

[Xenith]

1 hour ago, SlickSamos said:

how would they know that X or Y were a success / had issues before moving onto the next one?

 

Indeed, the Primarchs are universally described as infants in maturation pods at the time of the scattering, without any personality thus far. The only one that the Emperor was aware of was Magnus, as far as I know, who's warp essence big E communed with long before the physical reunion. 

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, SlickSamos said:

I think your proposition of what happened almost makes sense except how would they know that X or Y were a success / had issues before moving onto the next one?  

 

Really interesting analysis though!  

 

My general rule of thumb for considering sci-fi genetics is to keep it at the high school level and then maybe sprinkle in more. In this case, the gestating primarch's could have been tested using a concept called the central dogma of biology: DNA is transcribed into RNA is translated into proteins and proteins have functionality. In real life, this process is used to determine the function of portions of a genetic code. A more recent famous example is fluorescence. Scientists isolated what they thought was the portion of jellyfish DNA which expressed a green fluorescent (glow-in-the-dark) protein. They then experimented inserting that DNA sequence into other animals, and it did express the protein (producing glow-in-the-dark cats among other animals). In that case, the goal was to include the fluorescence sequence with a second sequence (like a working copy of the proinsulin gene); if the animal glows then the sequences were successfully inserted. Another recent example was the insertion of spider DNA into goats, causing them to express spider silk in their milk. The silk proteins are extracted from the milk and used for silk-things, instead of having to farm spiders for their silk.

 

I would guess a primarch had to stabilize in its gestation, then the Emperor's scientists would extract DNA samples. They'd use the DNA samples to express RNA sequences in test subjects and see what happened. I imagine the results would be grotesque, but enlightening. I would also guess that this experimentation gave Astarte the idea of culturing primarch DNA expressing specific organs for transplantation, rather than directly gene-splicing primarch DNA into a human, to create a more stable platform.

[Captain Idaho]

It's a nice theory but to be honest, it renders Primarchs down too much to base stereotypes. 

 

For example, Russ wore the barbarian facade as part of his cunning way to influence people and make people underestimate him. Sure he was stubborn and brash, but he was a consummate strategist and often played up to those traits when he determined a course of action rather than actually allowing those sort of traits to determine his actions.

 

Likewise, Guilliman isn't just a Primarch obsessed with law and logistical endeavour. Out of his abilities, he was always most talented in the art of war, one of the greatest swordsman of the Imperium, etc. He was generally very well rounded, considered amongst the top 4-5 for Warmaster due to his abilities.

[jaxom]

It's not the Primarchs-as-people that were being examined, but the expressions of specific parts of their genetics, as they reflect expected roles in the Emperor's plan. The Warborn are the most straightforward example, because the BB states 13th legion gene-seed had an innate restorative, indoctrinating effect on the most recidivist of "recruits." The Canis Helix was always a problem with implantation and had atrocious survival rates and mutation rates. We know Russ didn't have those issues and regular infusions of Russ's source material were required to get the stability required of 6th legion gene-seed needed for their continued existence in the Great Crusade. That, plus the reversion to type that is the 7th primarch's genetic legacy (along with similarities to the 4th primarch), suggests to me that work was done on the 6th primarch which was not successful. The eventual success/existance of the 6th primarch as an actual person led to me to the conclusion that the 6th primarch was returned to and fixed/improved with lessons learned from working on more primarchs.