An interesting opinion piece about returning Primarchs and the Cons of a new Civil War

[Orange Knight]

The topic comes up when returning Primarchs are mentioned, but I personally find the idea to be a bad one.

 

I randomly came across this channel when surfing around YouTube. He doesn't seem to update it regularly, but this interesting video stood out and I think it articulates a lot of points I have tried to make with various levels of success.

 

 

[WARMASTER_]

To me the theory of the Lion and Guilliman starting another galactic scale civil war is as ridiculous as the people who say Sanguinius will turn traitor in the last showdown with Horus and will be killed by Emperor….

 

[Wulf Vengis]

That would make a crazy twist though if it were revealed that way.

[Lexington]

Don't disagree with his overall ideas, but he kinda undercuts himself by noting that the Heresy series is filled with Primarchs acting nonsensically. Can definitely see more of that happening in 40K, especially when it comes to Big Event stuff. Remember the deliberately ambiguous way the Emperor's attitude towards the Primarchs was portrayed in Master of Mankind? Remember how GW then took one of the most surface-level, fan-frenzying interpretations in that novel and then just said "oh, no, that's the correct one, this is how the Emperor is" in the first post-Gathering Storm book? That's the level to expect anything like this to operate at.

[WrathOfTheLion]

When it comes down to it, the Dark Angels players are the ones that are going to give GW money when Jonson comes out. They're not very likely to do something to make a considerable amount of them rethink that.

Edited October 17, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Lexington said:

Remember the deliberately ambiguous way the Emperor's attitude towards the Primarchs was portrayed in Master of Mankind?

 

To be fair, asking GW to reach the bar ADB sets is...unfair and only sets us up for repeated disappointment. :D

[Orange Knight]

3 hours ago, Lexington said:

Don't disagree with his overall ideas, but he kinda undercuts himself by noting that the Heresy series is filled with Primarchs acting nonsensically. 

 

That's kind of the point. The Heresy novel series is ultimately damaged by the way some of these characters are portrayed.

 

Whilst it's not wrong for these demi-Gods to have negative character traits, the way they think sells their abilities short in some books. They have to at least appear to be intelligent. 

 

"We should expect more from our Primarchs" is the way it was put in the video.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Orange Knight

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

ANOTHER civil war?  There aren't any better/diffferent/more interesting ideas they can come up with?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Personally I doubt it will happen. I’d rather see a war between the various factions of Chaos.

[Scribe]

22 minutes ago, Inquisitor Eisenhorn said:

ANOTHER civil war?  There aren't any better/diffferent/more interesting ideas they can come up with?

 

Civil War. - Done

The High Lords are replaced by the Ecclesiarch's, full on Inquisition style take over by the Church. - Done

Crusade, see: Indomitus - Done

Plunge half the Imperium into Darkness - Done

 

What is going to make for the most dynamic, diverse setting in terms of potential conflict, and why is it not Civil War? ;)

[Scribe]

11 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Personally I doubt it will happen. I’d rather see a war between the various factions of Chaos.

 

So, a Tuesday then?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Come on there at least has to be a couple trilogies about it… 

[Scribe]

33 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Come on there at least has to be a couple trilogies about it… 

 

I mean, the Soul Hunter trilogy, the Black Legion books, Lords of Silence. Chaos kills its own, all the time.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

If another civil war is the new narrative for 40k, I'll go pull the plug on the Golden Throne myself; it's time to pack it in at that point. 

[Scribe]

17 minutes ago, Inquisitor Eisenhorn said:

If another civil war is the new narrative for 40k, I'll go pull the plug on the Golden Throne myself; it's time to pack it in at that point. 

 

In all seriousness, what would you suggest?

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

In all seriousness, what would you suggest?

Something that involves more than just internecine imperial conflict.  They just rebooted Horus Heresy for people who want all imperial forces all the time.  There's also the Badab War.  If the main focus of 40k is also a civil war, it's just more imperial-on-imperial conflict and it's harder to contrive reasons for xenos factions to be included, and I personally would like to see more xenos-centric narratives. 

 

What I would actually prefer is having a more neutral "5 minutes to midnight" setting the way it used to be, and for instead of them advancing the setting they explore some other eras between the heresy and the "now" of the setting.  Show us the Macharian Crusade or something.

[Scribe]

40 minutes ago, Inquisitor Eisenhorn said:

What I would actually prefer is having a more neutral "5 minutes to midnight" setting the way it used to be, and for instead of them advancing the setting they explore some other eras between the heresy and the "now" of the setting.  Show us the Macharian Crusade or something.

 

We agree too much to bicker...vexing. ;)

[WARMASTER_]

15 hours ago, Lexington said:

Remember the deliberately ambiguous way the Emperor's attitude towards the Primarchs was portrayed in Master of Mankind? Remember how GW then took one of the most surface-level, fan-frenzying interpretations in that novel and then just said "oh, no, that's the correct one, this is how the Emperor is" in the first post-Gathering Storm book? That's the level to expect anything like this to operate at.

I’m confused at which book you mean? I could be wrong but from my recollection the only time since the Gathering Storm we get any POV of the Emperor is in Godblight with Guilliman remembering his audience with the Emperor and while I’m really no Haley fan I didn’t take that interpretation from the “conversation” at all if anything I think it portrayed the Fractured soul he’s become after 10 millennia of psychic torment quite well  

 

 

[Pacific81]

10 hours ago, Inquisitor Eisenhorn said:

If another civil war is the new narrative for 40k, I'll go pull the plug on the Golden Throne myself; it's time to pack it in at that point. 

 

Plug pulled on golden throne, it turns out that was containing him.. And he is re-born.

 

This is done so a thoroughly OTT Emperor miniature can be released, there will be 100+ Youtube reaction vids of people with a shocked face image.

This is my prediction for before 2030

[Slave to Darkness]

7 hours ago, Pacific81 said:

 

Plug pulled on golden throne, it turns out that was containing him.. And he is re-born.

 

 

 

Reborn, but who will believe him. As his bodys is still on the throne half of the Imperium could be in the camp of 'well if your the emperor who the hell is that on the throne?'. 

An Imperium torn over the return of the Emperor is slightly more interesting than Papa Smurf and Papa Nightgown having a hissy fit over whos turn it is to hold dads sword.

[Scribe]

14 hours ago, Inquisitor Eisenhorn said:

If the main focus of 40k is also a civil war, it's just more imperial-on-imperial conflict and it's harder to contrive reasons for xenos factions to be included, and I personally would like to see more xenos-centric narratives.

 

So...I was thinking about this, as one does.

 

 

Hear me out here.

 

9th came out in 2020, July.

 

Necrons October 2020

Space Marines October 2020

Deathwatch November 2020

Space Wolves November 2020

Blood Angels December 2020

Dark Angels January 2021

Death Guard January 2021

Drukhari March 2021

Adeptus Mechanicus May 2021 

Adeptus Sororitas June 2021

Grey Knights August 2021

Thousand Sons August 2021

Orks September 2021

Black Templars November 2021

Adeptus Custodes January 2022

Genestealer Cult January 2022

Tau February 2022

Aeldari March 2022

Tyranids April 2022

Chaos Knights May 2022 (army box)

Imperial Knights May 2022 

Chaos Daemons August 2022

Leagues of Votann September 2022 (army box)

 

Now, there really isnt a whole lot of meat left on the bone, is there.

 

Combined with the Kill Team updates, Necromunda, and Guard coming (and World Eaters)... we are looking at probably the most complete slate of updated books for an edition, ever, and its not close. Even these books are seeing constant update.

 

One will also note the very obvious call backs to nostalgia that GW is doing. Things like the obvious updates of old Characters to Primaris, in classic poses from the art, or reimagined models based on fan favorite models of old, or well a certain model in the Sisters line that had me thinking.

 

What, in the above list is missing? What major Imperial institution is not done well, or not done at all really? What thread, what plot hook, is GW going for it seems in some of the recent works in their 'meta narrative'?

 

My friend Inquisitor, the answer should be obvious.

 

 

The Emperor is awakening you say?

 

Well then I think its time for a call back, and reimagining, of the game who's tag line was "Battle for the Emperor's Soul".

 

Let 10th come in with a huge injection of the Inquisition. Lets see this institution filled out in a major way for 40K, and maybe even bring in an Inq28 system. That way we have the internal strife, we have the Inquisitors looking into the Dark Angels (ties to Lion return) into Rob (he's a closet Xeno lover!) into the Emperor and the fragmentation and insanity of the God-Emperor.

 

Battle for the Emperor's Soul. Thats how I would do it.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That would be very interesting indeed.

Edited October 18, 2022 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Slave to Darkness]

29 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

So...I was thinking about this, as one does.

 

 

Hear me out here.

 

9th came out in 2020, July.

 

Necrons October 2020

Space Marines October 2020

Deathwatch November 2020

Space Wolves November 2020

Blood Angels December 2020

Dark Angels January 2021

Death Guard January 2021

Drukhari March 2021

Adeptus Mechanicus May 2021 

Adeptus Sororitas June 2021

Grey Knights August 2021

Thousand Sons August 2021

Orks September 2021

Black Templars November 2021

Adeptus Custodes January 2022

Genestealer Cult January 2022

Tau February 2022

Aeldari March 2022

Tyranids April 2022

Chaos Knights May 2022 (army box)

Imperial Knights May 2022 

Chaos Daemons August 2022

Leagues of Votann September 2022 (army box)

 

Now, there really isnt a whole lot of meat left on the bone, is there.

 

Combined with the Kill Team updates, Necromunda, and Guard coming (and World Eaters)... we are looking at probably the most complete slate of updated books for an edition, ever, and its not close. Even these books are seeing constant update.

 

One will also note the very obvious call backs to nostalgia that GW is doing. Things like the obvious updates of old Characters to Primaris, in classic poses from the art, or reimagined models based on fan favorite models of old, or well a certain model in the Sisters line that had me thinking.

 

What, in the above list is missing? What major Imperial institution is not done well, or not done at all really? What thread, what plot hook, is GW going for it seems in some of the recent works in their 'meta narrative'?

 

My friend Inquisitor, the answer should be obvious.

 

 

The Emperor is awakening you say?

 

Well then I think its time for a call back, and reimagining, of the game who's tag line was "Battle for the Emperor's Soul".

 

Let 10th come in with a huge injection of the Inquisition. Lets see this institution filled out in a major way for 40K, and maybe even bring in an Inq28 system. That way we have the internal strife, we have the Inquisitors looking into the Dark Angels (ties to Lion return) into Rob (he's a closet Xeno lover!) into the Emperor and the fragmentation and insanity of the God-Emperor.

 

Battle for the Emperor's Soul. Thats how I would do it.

Id actually give a crap about the current lore if they did that, more interesting than Guilliman being everywhere firing fireballs from his eyes and bolts of lightning from his arse. 

 

Internet cookie for the first person to guess the movie quote. 

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, Slave to Darkness said:

Id actually give a crap about the current lore if they did that, more interesting than Guilliman being everywhere firing fireballs from his eyes and bolts of lightning from his arse. 

 

Too easy, Braveheart. :p

[Evil Eye]

With regards to Lion vs Guilliman Civil War nonsense, I actually think it COULD work...if it's not an actual war per se as much as a deep, deep fratcure that essentially starts a "cold war" within the Imperium. Whilst not fully dissolving as everyone is still bound together by a common faith in Him On Terra, the idea of the Imperium having a mixture between Balkanizing and a religious schism would be interesting- the Imperium is no longer a single monolithic gigastate, so much as it is a federation of individual states run by a single overarching federal government (like a galaxy-sized USA, except with a less corpse-like leader ). The Inquisition is supposed to make sure none of the individual "Imperial Dominions" falls too far out of line...but of course, as we know the Inquisition itself is heavily fragmented and hardly unified in purpose either. For added bonus, have the Lion and Roboute clash over this; El'Jonson thinks the Imperium needs to be reunified, Guilliman thinks that the "Imperial Union" idea is better, and factions on both sides begin to form. The whole thing would have a wonderfully "lunatics running the asylum" feel and would totally fit with the 40K idea that things never actually get better, they just get different flavours of awful. Would also be a fun jab at the "The Imperium would be better if they followed [insert individual's political ideology here]!" crowd.