An interesting opinion piece about returning Primarchs and the Cons of a new Civil War

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think if it were to happen the overall public reaction would be negative. Sure this is often the case for geedub but I think this would be even more so.

[tychobi]

The "public" has been thirsting for a decent imperial civil war.  Grimdark 40k lore thrives on hight stakes and a distinct lack of heroes. Rowboat Bullyman has gone unchallenged for too long!  Bring on the Lion!

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

30 minutes ago, tychobi said:

The "public" has been thirsting for a decent imperial civil war.  Grimdark 40k lore thrives on hight stakes and a distinct lack of heroes. Rowboat Bullyman has gone unchallenged for too long!  Bring on the Lion!

 

Some have, the rest point to horus heresy/badab and go there's your red vs blue civil war

Edited October 18, 2022 by Mechanicus Tech-Support

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

1 hour ago, tychobi said:

The "public" has been thirsting for a decent imperial civil war.  Grimdark 40k lore thrives on hight stakes and a distinct lack of heroes. Rowboat Bullyman has gone unchallenged for too long!  Bring on the Lion!

 

1 hour ago, tychobi said:

The "public" has been thirsting for a decent imperial civil war.  Grimdark 40k lore thrives on hight stakes and a distinct lack of heroes. Rowboat Bullyman has gone unchallenged for too long!  Bring on the Lion!

‘Do you have anything to support this claim ?

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

12 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

So...I was thinking about this, as one does.

 

 

Hear me out here.

 

9th came out in 2020, July.

 

Necrons October 2020

Space Marines October 2020

Deathwatch November 2020

Space Wolves November 2020

Blood Angels December 2020

Dark Angels January 2021

Death Guard January 2021

Drukhari March 2021

Adeptus Mechanicus May 2021 

Adeptus Sororitas June 2021

Grey Knights August 2021

Thousand Sons August 2021

Orks September 2021

Black Templars November 2021

Adeptus Custodes January 2022

Genestealer Cult January 2022

Tau February 2022

Aeldari March 2022

Tyranids April 2022

Chaos Knights May 2022 (army box)

Imperial Knights May 2022 

Chaos Daemons August 2022

Leagues of Votann September 2022 (army box)

 

Now, there really isnt a whole lot of meat left on the bone, is there.

 

Combined with the Kill Team updates, Necromunda, and Guard coming (and World Eaters)... we are looking at probably the most complete slate of updated books for an edition, ever, and its not close. Even these books are seeing constant update.

 

One will also note the very obvious call backs to nostalgia that GW is doing. Things like the obvious updates of old Characters to Primaris, in classic poses from the art, or reimagined models based on fan favorite models of old, or well a certain model in the Sisters line that had me thinking.

 

What, in the above list is missing? What major Imperial institution is not done well, or not done at all really? What thread, what plot hook, is GW going for it seems in some of the recent works in their 'meta narrative'?

 

My friend Inquisitor, the answer should be obvious.

 

 

The Emperor is awakening you say?

 

Well then I think its time for a call back, and reimagining, of the game who's tag line was "Battle for the Emperor's Soul".

 

Let 10th come in with a huge injection of the Inquisition. Lets see this institution filled out in a major way for 40K, and maybe even bring in an Inq28 system. That way we have the internal strife, we have the Inquisitors looking into the Dark Angels (ties to Lion return) into Rob (he's a closet Xeno lover!) into the Emperor and the fragmentation and insanity of the God-Emperor.

 

Battle for the Emperor's Soul. Thats how I would do it.

Yes, absolutely, where is the inquisition? Where is it??? Seriously, where is it???????

 

I'll take your theory, because that's basically all I want from GW at this point anyways, so I hope you are right. 

[phandaal]

15 hours ago, tychobi said:

The "public" has been thirsting for a decent imperial civil war.  Grimdark 40k lore thrives on hight stakes and a distinct lack of heroes. Rowboat Bullyman has gone unchallenged for too long!  Bring on the Lion!

 

Have not seen any kind of widespread requests for another Imperial civil war. 40k has plenty of Grimdark ready for the taking without turning our current setting into Horus Heresy.

 

Personally, as a fan of the Dark Angels for decades, it would just feel disrespectful if the Lion finally wakes up only to be used as a civil war McGuffin.

[Valkyrion]

I'd like a GW civil war that would spark a player base civil war - like, the Lion comes back and goes to kill the Space Wolves, so all throughout 10th edition you have the players in official tournaments fighting for DA or SW and at the end of the edition the loser is destroyed, vanquished, gone for good, your toys can never be used again.

 

People would go nuts, foaming at the mouth with unrestrained fury and it'd be glorious to watch. 

[jaxom]

On 10/17/2022 at 5:16 PM, Scribe said:

What is going to make for the most dynamic, diverse setting in terms of potential conflict, and why is it not Civil War? ;)

On 10/17/2022 at 7:12 PM, Scribe said:

In all seriousness, what would you suggest?

 

Guilliman rules Imperium Sanctus, Dante rules (the infinitesimally small) Imperium Nihilis, and the Lion is busy crusading through Chaos-held space. Abaddon's lieutenants and other Chaos warlords begin to live in fear of The Rock appearing in their system. The shields around the Tower of Angels were strong enough to ward off being in the center of a warp storm; surviving whatever warp-shenanigans are going on elsewhere -short of the Eye of Terror- shouldn't be a problem. It finally lights a fire under Abaddon to get stuff done because he can no longer rely on having a safe infrastructure that the Imperium won't attack (and he needs that large infrastructure outside the Eye for whatever he's doing next). This leads to escalating conflict across the between the Imperium and Chaos, but also increased political resistance to Guilliman's reforms because people start assuming that a Primarch and his legion wrecking face on in Chaos's backyard means the threat is gone and they get complacent. The Inquisition and Church go off the deep-end as apocalypse-nuts start thinking, "“One primach back is happenstance. Two primarchs back is coincidence. Three primarchs back is the End Times,” and there are plenty of internal conflicts between groups looking to get to three and groups looking to not get to three. 

[Marshal Rohr]

They really need to address the fact half of the Galaxy is now a worthless, inaccessible black hole because of the Rift. Creating a setting and telling fans half of it cant use the fundamental source of interstellar travel really shot the setting in the foot. There nothing of value in creating a story set in Nihilus. Oh, Dante is in charge? Who cares? He can't go anywhere. Total waste.

[Pacific81]

53 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

I'd like a GW civil war that would spark a player base civil war - like, the Lion comes back and goes to kill the Space Wolves, so all throughout 10th edition you have the players in official tournaments fighting for DA or SW and at the end of the edition the loser is destroyed, vanquished, gone for good, your toys can never be used again.

 

People would go nuts, foaming at the mouth with unrestrained fury and it'd be glorious to watch. 

 

I guess we used to say they were just 'squatted, although that doesn't quite have the same impact now it once did!

 

WHFB being dropped I saw actually reduce someone to tears (although I think there was a fair bit of foaming at the mouth too), if you've spent hundreds of £s and hours lovingly creating an army which you now can't use you can kind of see their point. 

[Sothalor]

On 10/19/2022 at 6:10 AM, Valkyrion said:

I'd like a GW civil war that would spark a player base civil war - like, the Lion comes back and goes to kill the Space Wolves, so all throughout 10th edition you have the players in official tournaments fighting for DA or SW and at the end of the edition the loser is destroyed, vanquished, gone for good, your toys can never be used again.

 

People would go nuts, foaming at the mouth with unrestrained fury and it'd be glorious to watch. 

 

As I recall, 3rd Edition had the Eye of Terror campaign (eventually retconned and superseded by the Gathering Storm events in 7th-onwards). That was a community driven campaign where game results were supposed to determine the final outcome of the campaign - and drive subsequent lore developments.

 

As you can imagine, it rapidly degenerated into an utter :cuss:show of GW frantically backpedaling from everything and locking the setting into "the 13th Black Crusade is just kicking off right now" for about 3 editions.

[Scribe]

15 minutes ago, Sothalor said:

As I recall, 3rd Edition had the Eye of Terror campaign (eventually retconned and superseded by the Gathering Storm events in 7th-onwards). That was a community driven campaign where game results were supposed to determine the final outcome of the campaign - and drive subsequent lore developments.

 

Chaos won, we had better planning, and it was glorious. ;)

[phandaal]

37 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Chaos won, we had better planning, and it was glorious. ;)

 

Armageddon is still the GOAT.

[ThePenitentOne]

I fully believe another 40k Civil War will occur. But allow me to wax hypothetical.

 

I think GW has finally realized that their IP will outlive everyone currently alive and working for GW right now... Which is to say they are thinking like a corporation. You know, the way immortals would think if they existed. Not in terms of years, but decades.

 

I believe that the Ynarri were created as the seed of an idea that will mature in a decade or so. The shift to pure Primaris? That could take even longer. The civil war is even further away- 100th anniversary maybe?

 

Imagine if you will that every heresy novel was an entire edition of 40k. That's what Imperial Civil War 2.0 will look like when it finally comes. And it won't even begin until they've milked the Horus Heresy for everything it's worth.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

No it would be seen for what it is - a cheap money grab plus nobody wants it.

[jaxom]

18 hours ago, Sothalor said:

As you can imagine, it rapidly degenerated into an utter :cuss:show of GW frantically backpedaling from everything and locking the setting into "the 13th Black Crusade is just kicking off right now" for about 3 editions.

18 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Chaos won, we had better planning, and it was glorious. ;)

 

Chaos won the ground war, but the Imperial Navy held the skies. I didn't pound Chaos fleet after Chaos fleet into rapidly expanding clouds of gas and shrapnel just to be told GW backpedaled on the results. The results were clear: Chaos couldn't capitalize on the wins because they couldn't get off the planets they won.

 

Man, I miss Battlefleet Gothic.

 

The other organized standouts were the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves, courtesy of the B&C. @The Shadow Guard even got a task group named after him the White Dwarf write up of the campaign.

[Emperor Ming]

Again, why are people thinking there would be a civil war

 

After the Emperor went into the warp

 

Burned part of nurgles garden,

 

Destroyed his cauldron,

 

Resurrected girlyman from the dead,

 

Tells mortarion, those tainted by chaos may still be redeemed. 

 

Told the chaos gods he's gonna be back to kill them all

 

Anyone thinking he's gonna bring back more loyalist primarchs so they can run amok.....is just living in the realms of fantasy headcannon

 

Any brought back, will more than likely just used as tools like girlyman to facilitate his return. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Scribe]

4 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

Again, why are people thinking there would be a civil war

 

After the Emperor went into the warp

 

Burned part of nurgles garden,

 

Destroyed his cauldron,

 

Resurrected girlyman from the dead,

 

Tells mortarion, those tainted by chaos may still be redeemed. 

 

Told the chaos gods he's gonna be back to kill them all

 

Anyone thinking he's gonna bring back more loyalist primarchs so they can run amok.....is just living in the realms of fantasy headcannon

 

Any brought back, will more than likely just used as tools like girlyman to facilitate his return. 

 

 

God that lore is bad...

[Emperor Ming]

7 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

God that lore is bad...

Yet it is the lore

 

Just out of interest and discussion

 

Why do you think its bad

 

The Emperors been fighting the chaos gods in the warp in the background for millennia, there has to be a time where the scales tip int the Emperors favour

 

and hes put a lot of effort into it, the creation of the rift, a lot of dominions had to be knocked over for that to happen

[Slave to Darkness]

Send the Lion to kill things on the other side of the rift, he can deal with the hard work over there and Guilliman can carry on counting paperclips and cosplaying his daddy. They dont need to beef with each other if they are no way near each other. 

[Scribe]

3 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

there has to be a time where the scales tip int the Emperors favour

 

There doesnt. Thats simply all to say on it.

 

Everything about the setting, like all the books, all the lore, all the snippets, the Great Crusade, the HH, the Webway, the Primarchs, his deal with the Devils (Chaos Gods) all of it, his fractured soul and mind, hes lost half of his 'Empire'.

 

Every single thing, points to him trying to cheat, because he does not have the power to face down the Gods, and just looking at the setting itself, he never should. Its so backwards conceptually from what its all about.

 

It should never tip in his favour, and the day it does, is the day I'm out.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Glad to know this conversation is completely objective. 

[jaxom]

28 minutes ago, Scribe said:

because he does not have the power to face down the Gods, and just looking at the setting itself, he never should

I think the Emperor's plan could have worked, the Old Ones are a viable example of a psychic race which avoided warp-contamination. The problem, from my perspective, was that the Emperor was so busy staring at the horizon, he didn't notice the cracks under his feet. And that's not even touching that the Emperor's plan relied on an absolute authoritarian state with a ridiculous level of thought-policing and killing anyone who disagreed or didn't thought-police well enough.

[Scribe]

42 minutes ago, jaxom said:

I think the Emperor's plan could have worked, the Old Ones are a viable example of a psychic race which avoided warp-contamination.

 

Maybe. There was the whole issue of the war in heaven cause the warp to become too much of a problem?

 

Or am I misremebering old retcons?

 

EDIT: Yeah I know we cannot trust the Lex, but its there under the Old Ones.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Scribe

[jaxom]

24 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Maybe. There was the whole issue of the war in heaven cause the warp to become too much of a problem?

 

Or am I misremebering old retcons?

The old lore was that the Old Ones won the War in Heaven, but the numbers of Krork and Eldar they created to do so caused a boom in warp-parasites. The Old Ones basically pulled a Halo/Forerunner (or vice-versa due to Halo coming later), doing a slash-and-burn on sentient races, including themselves. The retcon/recent lore is that the Old Ones were winning, but then the Necrontyr made a deal with the C'tan and the newly ascended Necrons won the war. This ended up explaining why the Aeldari early history is so much mythology: they were shattered, as a society, along with the Old Ones. The Necrons then broke themselves fighting the C'tan, so the Aeldari ended up surviving, but in the ruins of their old civilization with myths replacing history as societal continuity was broken.