Which Legion was 'best' if there were no Primarchs?

[SlickSamos]

From listening to / reading up on the lore of multiple legions I've been wondering which legion would have risen to preeminence if no legions were ever reunite with their Primarch?

 

I think it would be interesting to discuss it both taking into account and ignoring the Gene-blight.

 

I'll start with the First Legion - who started preeminent, avoid the worst of the blight and yet managed to almost destroy themselves across a number of campaigns as they tried to keep up with the legions with the Primarchs when they were not yet reunited.  However had no legion been reunited, would their hubris still come to pass as others rose up to eclipse them or were the Primarchs the only reason others ever surpassed the First?

 

I really look forward to your thoughts on topic!

[MegaVolt87]

For me its War Hounds and Dusk Raiders. Just because they are consistent and relatively reliable before their primarchs showed up. While not top tier, I would put them at B-B+, pretty solid legions. 

[Noserenda]

Turns out the real best legion was the friends we made along the way :P 

I suspect the World eaters are the clear winners without a primarch though.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm pretty sure it boils down to which legion has the most stable and easily implanted gene seed. That's basically dark Angels, iron warriors, ultramarines, blood Angels, etc...

 

After that, you'd see how much the war council liked certain legions pre-primarch. The BA/revenant legion were massively resilient, but they were like the most hated. The iron warriors were extremely liked because they just did what they were told and went with the plan.

[SlickSamos]

Good points about the War Hounds getting erm better without their Primarch.  

 

I think on the other end of the scale we can probably agree that the III and XV would've ceased to exist without their Primarch?

[Brother Kraskor]

12 minutes ago, SlickSamos said:

I think on the other end of the scale we can probably agree that the III and XV would've ceased to exist without their Primarch?

 

 

I was scrolling down the thread intending to write this exact comment! Agreed.

[Brofist]

I remember from the black books that the pre-unification Iron Warriors basically fit this bill- they're the favorite and excel at fighting in the standard legion way. As primarchs are found and deviate from the standard (or specialize into things) attention shifts away from them and they get seen as inflexible relics.

[MegaVolt87]

Also the two lost legions in an alt timeline is interesting. They also may exist if they never get their primarchs as it seems implied they were purged after they found their primarchs. 

[Astartes Consul]

First Legion, the template and test bed from which all future legions structures were developed, surely? 

 

Or, if you believe certain hints dropped in various BL books, the XX Legion because they were actually created first and intended to be the perfect tool of control. 

[Cactus]

If the primarchs were all lost I can imagine the Emperor being more closely involved with the XXth than any other Legion. They'd be his strategic scalpel.

 

I would love to say Dark Angels but their behaviour was ultimately self destructive.

 

Iron Warriors, Night Lords, World Eaters and arguably Word Bearers would have been better off without their primarchs. Plenty more would have been more than competent anyway, with individual quirks, and a minority (Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons and Salamanders) would likely have ceased to exist.

[Runefyre]

The War-Born would definitely be contenders to the 1st Legion just based on the similarities of Geneseed stability and pride issues (which they do got "cured" of after the Osiris stuff). On top of that the War-Born's compatibility with Imperial forces facilitates an overall cohesive fighting force that would suppress internal strife. 

 

They do lack the special Dark Age tech the 1st Legion had, but that's something the 1st Legion will always have to hold over their brothers. 

[Xenith]

Agree on the 1st Legion being preeminent if no primarchs were found - they were already established, and I recall that only really the Ultramarines eclipsed their achievements, however that was after Guilliman was found.

 

There may also have been the issue that as the 'best' they would have been deployed against the Rangdan, and without the Primarch they would have been annihilated totally - however anything that can annihilate the first legion is a galaxy wide threat. 

[Dark Legionnare]

Agreed with Iron Warriors & Warhounds as the lads carrying the most weight.  With runners up going to 1st, Luna Wolves, and Ultras?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

On 10/31/2022 at 4:02 PM, MegaVolt87 said:

Also the two lost legions in an alt timeline is interesting. They also may exist if they never get their primarchs as it seems implied they were purged after they found their primarchs. 

I thought they were just added to Robbie's ranks. Isn't their a hint about the Ultras swelling in numbers unexpectedly amongst the Primarchs? I know I remember reading that, I just can't remember where. 

 

I agree with the War Hounds. Losing your entire leadership structure because Angron had a temper tantrum and not gaining the Butcher's Nails would have let them continue to be a brutal force of control and power while maintaining their sanity should have seen them rise to greater heights.

[SlickSamos]

To go slightly off topic (but hey it's my topic :P), would the White Scars ever actually function as a legion without the Khan?

 

I've also noticed that the Dusk Raiders and Immortal Ninth without their Primarchs haven't come up yet.  My impression was that the Dusk Raiders  got less balanced with Mort, but the Immortal Ninth became more balanced.  Is there a case that the 9th would have been sanctioned and eliminated?  Or more interestingly fallen to Khrone?

 

I've really enjoyed reading your thoughts!

[Karhedron]

23 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

On 10/31/2022 at 9:02 PM, MegaVolt87 said:

Also the two lost legions in an alt timeline is interesting. They also may exist if they never get their primarchs as it seems implied they were purged after they found their primarchs. 

I thought they were just added to Robbie's ranks. Isn't their a hint about the Ultras swelling in numbers unexpectedly amongst the Primarchs? I know I remember reading that, I just can't remember where. 

 

This was first mentioned in "First Heretic". ABD has mentioned somewhere that this was just meant to be a couple of grumpy Word Bearers trash-talking the UMs rather than an in-Universe fact. However it was unexpectedly confirmed in the short story "The Chamber at the End of Memory". Dorn and Guilliman came up with a plan to adopt the Legionaries from the two lost Legions after the 2nd and 11th Primarchs fell. Whether this means the Imperial Fists also contain some of the lost Legions is unclear. Dorn helped to create the plan but didn't necessarily adopt any himself.

 

Another interesting thing about this short story is it implies Chaos was involved in the loss of the two Primarchs. It also states that only one of the Primarchs was considered mentally strong enough to be allowed to retain their full memories, including the risks of Chaos. It is not stated in the story but we can probably deduce this was Alpharius/Omegon since they are the only Primarch to indicate knowledge of Chaos prior to the outbreak of the Heresy.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Karhedron

[The Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

This was first mentioned in "First Heretic". ABD has mentioned somewhere that this was just meant to be a couple of grumpy Word Bearers trash-talking the UMs rather than an in-Universe fact. However it was unexpectedly confirmed in the short story "The Chamber at the End of Memory". Dorn and Guilliman came up with a plan to adopt the Legionaries from the two lost Legions after the 2nd and 11th Primarchs fell. Whether this means the Imperial Fists also contain some of the lost Legions is unclear. Dorn helped to create the plan but didn't necessarily adopt any himself.

 

Another interesting thing about this short story is it implies Chaos was involved in the loss of the two Primarchs. It also states that only one of the Primarchs was considered mentally strong enough to be allowed to retain their full memories, including the risks of Chaos. It is not stated in the story but we can probably deduce this was Alpharius/Omegon since they are the only Primarch to indicate knowledge of Chaos prior to the outbreak of the Heresy.

 

Cue the Blood Drinkers finding out they aren't descended from Dorn despite being second founding.

[Dark Legionnare]

1 hour ago, SlickSamos said:

To go slightly off topic (but hey it's my topic :P), would the White Scars ever actually function as a legion without the Khan?

 

I've also noticed that the Dusk Raiders and Immortal Ninth without their Primarchs haven't come up yet.  My impression was that the Dusk Raiders  got less balanced with Mort, but the Immortal Ninth became more balanced.  Is there a case that the 9th would have been sanctioned and eliminated?  Or more interestingly fallen to Khrone?

 

I've really enjoyed reading your thoughts!

I've always understood it that the IXth was "effective"  but suicidally so. Very often losing so many of their number that the infamous "Let's recruit mutants too, our seed is so strong" instances occurred.  Not to mention that they didn't ingratiate themselves with other elements of the Great Crusade too well. I imagine they would've kept "doing work" but eventually become too infamous to be unchastised by big E himself and gone the way of the lost legions.

The Revenants got a bunch more love in the latest siege book as far as I've heard. Someone who's read it can probably elaborate more on my back-of-the-mind hearsay.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Dark Legionnare

[Spagunk]

The Revenants could not function as a legion.

 

It was noted in both book 8 and other articles that they actually devolved into smaller contingents (Chapter level at most) because they could not coordinate at a legion level with any meaningful way. Their needs were too much to allow legion level command structures even though they had command level units. So I would disregard The Revenants even if they always accomplished the goal. Same with the Immortal 9th except blood.

 

A loose dog that cannot be contained cannot be allowed to live etc. etc. etc.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Spagunk

[Brofist]

Good point on the scars. Without the Khan they would probably remain a loose, but very specialized, arm of the Legiones Astartes.

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, The Scorpion said:

Cue the Blood Drinkers finding out they aren't descended from Dorn despite being second founding.

 

That is a good point. If the Fists did take an influx of troops from the 2nd and/or 11th then that might explain why the Templars have such a different temperament from the IFs and CFs. It might also explain Dorn's "You are not my son!" line to Sigismund.

[MegaVolt87]

AL and WS pre-prinarch were largely decentralized, they still had utility despite that. 

[No Foes Remain]

Didn't Book 8 mention that before the Khan came the Scars were dying a death of a thousand cuts? Each pioneer company slowly taking losses and slowly being reduced in strength and with them running ahead of Exped fleets they would be out of supply, not just with munitions and vehicles but armour, recruits and geneseed.

[Brother Sutek]

Without the Primarch I still feel that the XX would be the best, however the Hounds would be the best off.

[Marshal Mittens]

For me the Warhounds or Dark Angels are probably the best with no primarchs. Dark Angels descent was somewhat because of them wanting to regain the top spot while other legions eclipsed them because they had primarchs.