Librarians - or how to become "that guy"

[MichaelCarmine]

Hello there!

 

If been on a Heresy Event the last Weekend with my Raven Guard. 

I played with a Telepathy Librarian (ca. 100pts) which i now finally mark as beeing plain broken.

I won't be fielding that guy anymore until atleast telepathy gets nerfed, or our lokal community can get behind a uniform houseruling... maybe by changing his shooting attack to let stubborn work against it?! =]

In one of the game, he pinned a squad of 7 Gal Vorbak with Chaplain for the whole game - they didn't move at all. Another Game,  that guy pinned 3 units over the course of a game turn (1 own, 2 opponend). He could've/would've pinned 4, but my opponent just didn't want to risk it by charging him and his squad.

after winning the first 3 games, i threw him out of my list, so that my opponents could also have some fun...

...atleast, i still came in 3rd in the FairPlay rating xD

 

How do you feel about Telepathy Librarians? Do you think, they are "fair" to play? 

 

Michael

 

[Jimm]

I've been on both sides of this and if your only fielding one it's fine. First game i tried this out it felt a little strong but since then it's balanced out.

Precision shots from snipers, vigilator or a primarch is probably the easiest counter but there's a few methods.

Granted not all lists will be set up for this

 

 

[Valkyrion]

Yeah, I think they are fine in general but are very good at their job.

I remember losing a 350 point spartan to a 5 man lascannon squad (150) points, so now I only take 400 point spartans to ensure that can never happen again. 

 

The nature of 30k is that things are specialised rather than wide ranging, and because of that certain things will seemingly over perform, sometimes outrageously so, like a first turn spartan death. There's luck on the part of my opponent, there's arrogance on my part thinking there's no way, but now I spend 50 points more to ensure those lascannons can now only glance me to death. 

The point I'm making is that sooner or later you'll come up against an army list or opponent that neutralises your librarian.  That might be another Librarian Psychic Hooding you, an army of fearless laughing at your petty hallucinations or Seekers picking you out with their Nemesis Bolters.  Everything has a counter.

[Imren]

Alpha legion have headhunter squads with multimelta (twin linked, BS5, preferred enemy (independent characters), precisions shots (4+), infiltrate and scout). Exodus and recon marines will make short work of him as well.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Imren

[Brofist]

Yeah I agree, a single telepathy wizard isn't so bad. There are hard counters to him and his build (units immune to pinning, delegatus ability, etc). Spamming it isn't very fun to play with or against. I played around with it a few times and won't ever include more than one anymore.

[Valkyrion]

It's hard to spam it though, really. 

You need a Praetor or equivalent to open up any Rites of War so at under Primarch level games you're only looking at 2 Librarians max using a standard FOC, and even at Primarch level games its still only max 3. 

 

In 1000 points without a Praetor then spending 300 points or so on 3 librarians to utterly neuter your opponent is pretty skanky, but it's an edge case really, and there's lots that look really powerful at 1000 points that are considerably less so at 3000 points. 

 

Unless I'm missing something, of course. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Theres a couple of issues with them.

 

The first is that their power strips reactions regardless fearless, stubborn, ld 10, etc...Obviously the shooting reactions are a really big deal, but this also shuts down legion specific counter-charge reactions, and that can be devastating against a world eater/blood Angels/space wolf death star at really close ranges. 

 

The second is that the psychic weapon overrides stubborn and inexorable, while getting even more value when dishing out reactions.

 

A sub point to the above is how the change to return fire makes the pinning kick in before the active players shots. This lets him defend against one of the potential sniping units and lock them down for their next turn as well thanks to the wording on pinning. A delegatus can't prevent that, so it really leaves you with transports, fearless, or needing tons of snipers to deal with it. 

 

Third is the cost. They're hyper-cheap, and even with an HQ to open rites you only need to spend a minimum of 335 for the delegatus and two jump pack Libbys. Do they compete with the excellent Herald? Ya. Do they easily lock down hundreds of points per turn, more than making the investment back? Also yes. 

 

Maybe lowering the cost of the consuls, but making the individual disciplines cost points would allow a better balance on the librarian, and allow a nerf to telepathy without just making it pointless or ruining the consul.

[Valkyrion]

Can the same not be said about anything that seems powerful, though? 

I don't really follow competitive 30k (if there is such a thing?) and I don't have the rules off by heart yet, but aren't your 350 points of delegatus and telepathy librarians killed by 2 dreadnoughts? 

 

What I'm finding here and on other forums is that something seems very powerful and therefore it is too powerful and is bad for the game, but it's not always the same *thing* that people are complaining about, and I quite like that.  It seems very apt, to me, that all the varied armies out there mean you could easily come up against one for which you are ill prepared because there are considerably less 'auto-includes' compared with 40k.  

But then again, I'm still new at this and am still learning, and maybe there are auto takes and I just haven't realised it! (contemptor dreadnoughts are knocking heavily on my door...!)

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea, sure they are, but:

 

A) all three characters are there for support not melee, so I'm not sure why they're just...fighting the contemptor, leading to,

 

B) the contemptor is also extremely strong and is point for point, the best melee unit in the game. 2 of them will kill almost any combination of 3 non primarch characters.

 

Just because one thing is really good, doesn't mean another, different, thing isn't also really good. Especially if they're in different foc slots; librarians are in the HQ slot (and might as well be your mandatory one unless your collection is completely skewed around one rite), contemptors are Elite, recons are troops (tho are support squads, so there is other things that need to be taken first), and HSS are heavy. Theyre all really impactful, all relatively cheap, and none compete with each other in the foc. A spot 2000 point (basically a small army) can be made with 1 jump librarian, 3 contemptors with gravis melta fist and helical, 2x 10 assault marine squads, 3x 5 sniper recons with augury, and 2x 10 heavy supports with lascannons and augury. Scale it up to 2500 and add javelins and another tely Libby and yea, you're set. 

 

[Brofist]

2 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

Unless I'm missing something, of course. 

 

Thousand Sons :)

 

Like with the dread lists you mentioned, they're not really fun to play with or against, which is probably why lots of players are self regulating.

[MichaelCarmine]

I think what most of you are missing, or maybe even just not know - his pinning power has a range of 36" so he can easily stay out of most of the previously named "counter-units".

With my RG for example, he can also infiltrate, get nightvision, preffered enemy (IC) so i can infiltrate him in a squad, outside of the crucial weapon ranges/LoS of most units. Fire at them without the risk of critical return fire (depending on the Legion) and since this edition the people play more and more ICs - pretty sure get the +6 onto your opponents pinning tests.

Even without my RG bonuses - the 36" range of that Psi Attack is way to much.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I think it's fine to run one. Nothing in this game is so broken that it bars removal. Like Telepathy's ranged attack isn't doing anything against Calvary heavy lists nor dread heavy lists. Drop Pods are going to put so much pressure on you that it doesn't matter I'd you can infiltrate or not. Same goes for Knight heavy lists. Like, yeah you're going to Pin an Arminger but the real problems are going to nuke you. Once you start facing those things, Telepathy is just okay.

[tychobi]

Judging that your toy risks your opponents fun and therefore is not what you want to bring to the table is admirable. 

[MichaelCarmine]

10 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I think it's fine to run one. Nothing in this game is so broken that it bars removal. Like Telepathy's ranged attack isn't doing anything against Calvary heavy lists nor dread heavy lists. Drop Pods are going to put so much pressure on you that it doesn't matter I'd you can infiltrate or not. Same goes for Knight heavy lists. Like, yeah you're going to Pin an Arminger but the real problems are going to nuke you. Once you start facing those things, Telepathy is just okay.

Actually, dropping/deep striking near him benefits him the most xD

First he intercept-pins one unit, then returnfire-pins a second, and/or or even overwatch-pins a third xD

Also - as mentioned, i play raven guard - i eat dread-lists for Breakfast ;]

Edited November 1, 2022 by MichaelCarmine

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I look at it from a different perspective. It's good to tout confidence about how your army can deal with certain units. I'm simply of the mind set that he's not broken.

 

What I mean is deepstriking near him is a melta Calvary or a herald lead death star,  Leviathans and/or contemptors in a drop pod right of War those types of things. Units that can not be pinned.

 

A Knight House just about doesn't care about Telepathy and will drop double BS5 thermal Cannon pie plates on your librarian lead squad.

 

Another example might by my Sky-Hunter RoW World Eater army I'm working on printing. It's 40+ scimitar jetbikes that can not be pinned and puts a ton of pressure on you. Now the rest of your army may just eat through that list. A Telepathy librarian is just a wasted HQ slot against it though.

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I look at it from a different perspective. It's good to tout confidence about how your army can deal with certain units. I'm simply of the mind set that he's not broken.

 

What I mean is deepstriking near him is a melta Calvary or a herald lead death star,  Leviathans and/or contemptors in a drop pod right of War those types of things. Units that can not be pinned.

 

A Knight House just about doesn't care about Telepathy and will drop double BS5 thermal Cannon pie plates on your librarian lead squad.

 

Another example might by my Sky-Hunter RoW World Eater army I'm working on printing. It's 40+ scimitar jetbikes that can not be pinned and puts a ton of pressure on you. Now the rest of your army may just eat through that list. A Telepathy librarian is just a wasted HQ slot against it though.

I guess most people complain -and rightfully so- about the fact that a Telepathy libby is crazy effective against most generic armies. That there are anti-army is true but most armies are jist not suited to play against this thing. 

GW should nerf it to a degree that the libby is still effective but not broken against most armies. Change it to shell shock (2) of smth and he would be fine.

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I disagree with that statement. Almost every "Generic" army has multiple threats to a Telepathy Librarian. Snipers, to fearless, to can not be pinned, to Delegatus etc.

 

But fall back on your meta. He plays raven guard, Corax was against psykers. He's playing to win not playing to fluff he also plays a thunder hammer Praetor. I'm not too concerned with the OP title when he's already an advocate for optimized lists. I've played with and against a Telepathy librarian. They are just good. Once you face like minded lists this conversation changes again.

 

Edit: that came across as negative. It wasn't meant to be that way. I should clarify that by playing optimal lists against fluff, you are setting up to play games of like minded individuals rather than worrying about internal balance.

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[MichaelCarmine]

3 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I disagree with that statement. Almost every "Generic" army has multiple threats to a Telepathy Librarian. Snipers, to fearless, to can not be pinned, to Delegatus etc.

 

But fall back on your meta. He plays raven guard, Corax was against psykers. He's playing to win not playing to fluff he also plays a thunder hammer Praetor. I'm not too concerned with the OP title when he's already an advocate for optimized lists. I've played with and against a Telepathy librarian. They are just good. Once you face like minded lists this conversation changes again.

 

 

 

First of all - I don't "Play to Win". Otherwise i would run 3 squads of dark furies with chaplains...

I would advice you to not call someone out that way, when you don't even know the Legion-Fluff yourself.

Corax himself reinstated the Librarius after the Dropsite Massacre. Balsar Khuturi, the RGs Chief Librarian even was a Founding Member of the Grey Knights (alledgedly).

So please keep such provocative statements to yourself without the propper, or just "hearsay" info.

Otherwise you'd recommend not playing Deliverers? 'Cause Corax hated them, so according to you, they are not allowed in fluffy lists?!

Second - i don't play a Thunderhammer Praetor, i equipped him that way for 2 games and went back to Paragon Blade or Dual Ravens Talons. I don't even know what a Thunderhammer Praetor has to do with your "P2W" argument...xD

 

So you actually made my point. You need to face "like minded lists" to have a good chance against a telepathy Librarian. He's nothing you can just "deal with" with what you have, if you do not prepare for him. Atleast not before he can get 1 or 2 good turns of pinning.

The Event we played had players from all over Germany. I mainly faced Infantry-heavy lists with 2-3 Dreadnoughts, some legion elites and an occational Vehicle. I Played against Word Bearers (twice), Night Lords and World Eaters. None of them had/would've had an answer to him. Night Lords Ultra Pinning Terror Squads simply didn't have the range, Recons didn't get enough breaching hits to go through 2W and 5++/5+++ before they themself get countersniped, enemy seekers didn't have the range for Precicion Shots. If you know how to play him, he can become a über-tool against your opponent, that needs to get nerfed, even if it's just the range of his attack.

Edit: 

Also regarding the Delegatus - i played one myself that event. He's really handy, but can only use his ability once per game. 

My World Eater opponent had one. That helped him on his first gameturn. After that... that was the game where i pinned 3 Units in just one game turn (the second)...

Edited November 2, 2022 by MichaelCarmine

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm not sure what's going on.

 

Units don't need to single handedly solo an army to be considered OP; they just need to generate extreme value for their points and demand specifically to be dealt with. If they're dealt with and the list doesn't immediately roll over it shows they're not a gimmick. Part of my reply to valkyrion was trying to explain that; they're a very strong component that basically slots into any list with little consideration. Its far and away the best take all comers choice. 

 

There's builds to avoid the psychic weapon, that's certainly true, but he'll still shut down reactions with his power. And that's ignoring the wild argument put forth that one tely Libby isn't that bad because a skew heavy list isn't affected by half his power. It reminds me of the interceptor argument, but even more extreme; "just don't play one archetype" to "just only play a couple of archetypes", and from a single model at that! Obviously a bit hyperbolic; people don't swap collections like that, but you can't say that a couple of builds aren't very impacted across all of them, so don't worry. 

 

Snipers are the best proposed tech choice of the many DBH mentioned (fearless and can't be pinned can still have reactions stripped [cav are especially vulnerable to unable to evade and the las HSS double whammy], delegatus once per game and doesn't help getting reactions). Its contingent on being out of range of the getting reacted, but will still take the average legion 14 shots to kill him with recons. Mor deythan on sudden strike in decap need 8. But ya, not the silver bullet.

 

 

 

[Brofist]

I think one guy is saying they're totally busted while another is saying they're merely too good

[Dont-Be-Haten]

18 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

First of all - I don't "Play to Win". Otherwise i would run 3 squads of dark furies with chaplains...

I would advice you to not call someone out that way, when you don't even know the Legion-Fluff yourself.

Corax himself reinstated the Librarius after the Dropsite Massacre. Balsar Khuturi, the RGs Chief Librarian even was a Founding Member of the Grey Knights (alledgedly).

So please keep such provocative statements to yourself without the propper, or just "hearsay" info.

Otherwise you'd recommend not playing Deliverers? 'Cause Corax hated them, so according to you, they are not allowed in fluffy lists?!

Second - i don't play a Thunderhammer Praetor, i equipped him that way for 2 games and went back to Paragon Blade or Dual Ravens Talons. I don't even know what a Thunderhammer Praetor has to do with your "P2W" argument...xD

 

So you actually made my point. You need to face "like minded lists" to have a good chance against a telepathy Librarian. He's nothing you can just "deal with" with what you have, if you do not prepare for him. Atleast not before he can get 1 or 2 good turns of pinning.

The Event we played had players from all over Germany. I mainly faced Infantry-heavy lists with 2-3 Dreadnoughts, some legion elites and an occational Vehicle. I Played against Word Bearers (twice), Night Lords and World Eaters. None of them had/would've had an answer to him. Night Lords Ultra Pinning Terror Squads simply didn't have the range, Recons didn't get enough breaching hits to go through 2W and 5++/5+++ before they themself get countersniped, enemy seekers didn't have the range for Precicion Shots. If you know how to play him, he can become a über-tool against your opponent, that needs to get nerfed, even if it's just the range of his attack.

Edit: 

Also regarding the Delegatus - i played one myself that event. He's really handy, but can only use his ability once per game. 

My World Eater opponent had one. That helped him on his first gameturn. After that... that was the game where i pinned 3 Units in just one game turn (the second)...

Sorry for the misunderstanding. You've given off different vibes in the RG tactics thread, and you have made statements previously that lead me to believe you were more of a play to win player.

 

We will just toss that up to me misinterpreting our previous conversations in other threads.

 

@Brofist I personally think he's just good. We know I feel that way about a lot of things in this game though.

[SkimaskMohawk]

So it looks like loyalists now have an option to spam sister of silence apothecaries in their marine units. The unit is basically a bunch of ICs that split after deployment, but as Agents can join any loyalist marine unit.

 

You get 5+ FNP, high stubborn leadership (helps counteract her LD debuff slightly), and immunity to psychic powers.

 

Considering that tely librarians are one of the best ways to slow the custodes train down, expect to see a lot of them, and then expect to see the knight vestals everywhere....including in those custodes units. 

[Voronesh]

While I was at the same event, and I also had the same librarian along with my forces, I honestly think that the end result often would have been the same if you replace the telepath with someone else.

 

Did I win because of the telepath? Most certainly not. Was he helpful? Once yes. Did he fail when it would have been disastrous for the enemy? Also yes.

 

Do I think the OP would have won regardless of the telepath. Also yes. (He is a good player after all)

 

Do I think the model is to good? Also yes.

 

But there are multiple paths to a solution, and also different problems associated with this model.

 

First a Night Lords player can nearly emulate the effect with a vigilator during nightfighting and maybe some source of fear. And that guy doesn't need a Ld check to start his magic.

 

So it's not really unique but rather a very easily accessible option.

 

Is the fact that there exists an option to pin stubborn/inexorable units (so mostly terminators) and Word Bearers a Problem? Maybe, but I think it is nice to have.

 

I saw a tournament module that switched the telepathy power to work like shell-shock. Interesting at first, until you realise this only helps Word Bearers and stubborn/inexorable units and still screws everybody else. It will still wreck havoc against Night Lords for example.

 

I saw the suggestion to tone it down to Shell shock 2. Instead of that I'd suggest simply reducing hallucinations to assault 3. Good, but definitely no automatic pin, but I still works against everyone.

 

Honestly I prefer to work with the other half of the telepath. Shutting off that one important reaction but letting him have his unit. Sure I often did charge with my Terminators after my enemy not having that one important reaction, but it certainly feels less OP.

 

But ofc, new book, new crazy options for loyalists, we'll see how list building changes. I mostly feel bad for traitors (within reason, I am a Dark Angel after all.) But lack of daemons, lack of allies right as assassins (kinda meh) but really good Talons of the emperor drops.

 

Also is it fluffy to add some talon? Yes. Do I have to feel bad about whooping Traitor ass? Not in universe, but as a Gamer maybe kinda.

[Lord Krungharr]

4 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

So it looks like loyalists now have an option to spam sister of silence apothecaries in their marine units. The unit is basically a bunch of ICs that split after deployment, but as Agents can join any loyalist marine unit.

 

You get 5+ FNP, high stubborn leadership (helps counteract her LD debuff slightly), and immunity to psychic powers.

 

Considering that tely librarians are one of the best ways to slow the custodes train down, expect to see a lot of them, and then expect to see the knight vestals everywhere....including in those custodes units. 

What book do we need to get to use those?  I have 3 Apothecaries for my IH/RG, but the extra psychic protection would be welcome.  Though does that use up an allied detachment?  Good tradeoff though even then, as it would free up an Elites slot.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The new liber imperialis. Youre trading a Legion elite slot for having to spend the points on 1 HQ, 1 elite and 1 troop from the allied detachment.