What is the Emperor?

[Arkangilos]

So as to not take the thread 

off topic, I have decided to start one here for the good discussion that was happening there over the changing lore of the Emperor. The three main posts that particularly caught my attention are the following: 

 

On 9/1/2022 at 12:46 AM, Kastor Krieg said:

"He never was."

Had you read the series, you'd have noticed how they talk about Emps way more as "it", than "him". The whole Dark Age of Technology era weapon / creation angle, too.

 

Whatever he/it is, it's definitely not pure human.

On 9/1/2022 at 6:27 AM, Slave to Darkness said:

So Im still working from 1st ed fluff for him.

On 9/1/2022 at 7:36 AM, Kastor Krieg said:

 your last point of knowledge is 30-40 years old, [...], everything that was written, changed, adjusted, speculated, retconned, both in-character, in-setting and OOC, [...]

 

I guess what I would like to add to the conversation is that as far as I am aware, the lore hasn't changed. Even from what I remember of earlier editions, all those theories were just speculation, but even if those theories were true, they still show he isn't a pure human (as what Krieg said), but he isn't a "non" human, as what Slave to Darkness said (and shouldn't be 50 feet tall).

 

I believe (but could be wrong, I should double check but I don't have the sources around me), that the Sensei theory is still held by factions of the inquisition, and as others pointed out in that thread, the "childhood" of the emperor tends to be in visions and not too reliable. (Even if they are reliable, it could be explained by the reincarnations and such, which actually supports the star child theory). 

 

But what do you all think? Is he simply a powerful perpetual, are the perpetuals an updated "star child" idea (perhaps they are the sensei, and sacrificing them will return the Emperor!), or is he something else entirely. 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Arkangilos

[Scribe]

The reincarnation of Old Earth's Shaman, born in Anatolia.

 

But of course. 

[Jamafore]

This is something I doubt we will ever get an actual answer for, nor should we, imo.

 

Beyond the whole 'removing the mystery' bit, everyone's been kicking around their own theories, things that have been stated, etc. for something like 40 years now. No matter how awesome they think they will write it, there's always going to be a lot of people that really, really, reaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllly hates how they did it, because that's not how they themselves imagined it.

 

This, I think, is part of the problem with the whole Gathering Storm thing. It's not how people imagined Guilliman coming back, if he came back at all.

[Arkangilos]

20 minutes ago, Jamafore said:

This is something I doubt we will ever get an actual answer for, nor should we, imo.

 

Beyond the whole 'removing the mystery' bit, everyone's been kicking around their own theories, things that have been stated, etc. for something like 40 years now. No matter how awesome they think they will write it, there's always going to be a lot of people that really, really, reaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllly hates how they did it, because that's not how they themselves imagined it.

 

This, I think, is part of the problem with the whole Gathering Storm thing. It's not how people imagined Guilliman coming back, if he came back at all.

To be fair, I understand that and agree. My question is more about what do *you* think based on what lore we do have.

[Lord_Ikka]

Based on what Erda has stated, He was the strongest among the Perpetuals and the strongest psychic ever known. Older than almost any of them, barring Oli, and extremely ruthless in His plan to create/shape human destiny/survival. His psychic power leads him to be able to confuse the minds of those he interacts with, changing size and shape at will, with none really being able to say they saw the true Him. It's possible that effect still happens with him on the throne, with every person/Custodes seeing what they wish to see, i.e.- some see a massive 50-foot half-corpse and others seeing a human-sized person on a massive throne. 

[Xenith]

I think the reference to him being a "relic from the dark age of technology" is just a throwaway line, and I think has been confirmed somewhere else - there's always a conspiracy theory as to the genetics of those in power, look at how many royals are called 'Lizard people'.

 

The lady perpetual - Astarte? - in Saturnine confirms that she has known the Emperor for >30,000 years, so that rules out the DAoT origin, and reinforces the human-shaman-perpetual-psyker origin. 

 

Maybe other perpetuals are only younger than the emperor as he was the last to be able to reincarnate before the increasing intensity of warp storms stopped the ability to?

[Karhedron]

Both Oll and Erda have confirmed the Emperor was around in the Bronze Age as well as him being the mightiest of the Perpetuals. Erda describes him as an outlier, exceptional even by Perpetual standards. To be fair, this does not necessarily conflict with the Shaman synergy origin story. If we assume Shamans and Perpetuals are the same thing then it is possible a group of powerful Perpetuals decided to reincarnate as the Emperor so the two sets of background are not mutually exclusive.

 

The Sensei seem to have fallen by the wayside, replaced with other Perpetuals and Primarchs. I think it is implied somewhere that the silent sisters are biologically descended from the Emperor but I may be mis-remembering that.

[gideon stargreave]

I think to discuss this, it's worth considering the 30k and 40k universes to be seperate things. 
In 40k everything is a myth, nothing is known, there are no truths. The inquisition game really cemented that.
In 30k everything is true, it is a historical setting, and each book that talks about the emperor adds to it. Now of course, there are still rumours about real present day people, but they are still concrete entities.
So the 30k emperor is a perpeutual (or whatever - i'm not up to speed on the novels) with immense psychic powers
and the 40k emperor is a god, or a corpse, or a living psychic man strapped to a machine, or an invention entirely to appease the masses, or something else entirely.

and all of these things are fine 

 

[Xenith]

Well, just as the things that happened in the year 30,000 are myth by the year 40,000, the origin of the emperor in the year 5000BCE would be also myth by the year 30,000, right?

 

The fact that in 30k, no one really knows who or what this guy is, is testament to that. He just showed up in the year 29,000 or whatever and took over the world. 

[N1SB]

I've been sharing the following with those in our local Warhammer Store, so I do so here, because it's all relevant to this penultimate 30k novel.

  

5 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

But what do you all think? Is he simply a powerful perpetual, are the perpetuals an updated "star child" idea (perhaps they are the sensei, and sacrificing them will return the Emperor!), or is he something else entirely. 

 

What you laid out is exactly what I think, and I know There Are No Wolves On Fenris (Except Of Course For the Wolves), but it's pretty much been spelled out in recent books:

• Horus Heresy: Master of Mankind
• Siege of Terra: Saturnine
• Siege of Terra: Fury of Magnus
• Dark Imperium: Plague War
• Dark Imperium: Godblight

I'll describe what the book lays out and how I think of them as the current explanation for what we used to call the Sensei and Star Child THIRTY YEARS AGO (I just realised how old I am, I still remember holding my friend's copy of the book that described them oh my cog, has it really been that long, am I really that old).

 

 

 The Emperor Was Probably a Dude In the Bronze Age 

 

 

In Master of Mankind, the Emperor gives His backstory as practically the son of Biblical Abel, the first murder victim.  He probably made all that up, as this backstory was training a Custodes to trap the Daemon Drach'nyen in his own soul.  All this was done in a psychic PowerPoint presentation, like this Custodes would ask about His precognitive power to see in the future, and the Emperor would conjure up an image of an island in the sea, to show that he could see the future like that island there, but he doesn't know what's happening there, the only way to know is to swim over and find out.

 

I think the consensus was, the Emperor was just trying to motivate this Custodes and telling him stuff he wants to hear...like a tragic backstory for himself.  Later in the book the Emperor actually talks to the legendary Techpriest, Arkhan Land (of Land's Raider and Land's Speeder) about the old story/Disney cartoon Pinocchio.  So why do I share this?  They're probably all lies, but the fact that the Emperor even considered making them up means he had similar experiences.  Even when we lie, we lie in a way that we can relate to them, we make them up based on what we know.

 

This is just one piece of evidence that is confirmed soon after.

 

 

 The Emperor's Name Was Neoth (At One Time) 

 

 

In Saturnine, we meet the woman the Emperor put in charge of His Primarch project, named Erda (as referenced above by our Brothers, yes, she is as important as they make her sound).  She is a Perpetual, those immortals that walk among humanity, and until she explained it, I hated the idea of Perpetuals, but thanks to her I'm now quite okay with them.

 

As a Perpetual, she explains they're just a sub-type of the human species, like how psykers, navigators, etc., things that we accept in the 40k universe, like mutations (in a hilariously X-men reference, she refers to themselves as homo superior).  They all had immortality plus some special abilities, because when you live for tens of thousands of years, you learn some things.  They often live among humans, and try to change their behaviour to better suit their wants & needs...much like cats.

 

She knew the Emperor...and she hated calling Him that, it's like how The Rock's family and childhood friends call him Dwayne instead of The Rock...when He was a warlord/king during early human civilisation (also kinda like The Rock who played The Scorpion King and Black Adam).  According to her, even among the other Perpetuals, the Emperor was totally OP.  He was the greatest of them by a league, like He's in a league all of His own.  It got to a point where He recruited other Perpetuals to carry out His vision for Mankind, His version of Mankind.  And...like cats...they don't work together all that well.  Pretty soon the only ones that stayed with Him was Malcador the Sigilite and herself.

 

Now, here on B&C, I should share this tidbit.  When the other Perpetuals the Emperor recruited either just abandoned or turned on Him, being Him, He decided He'll just make His own Perpetuals.  They'd be clones, so it'd made sense to clone them from the best, the brightest Perpetual ever...Himself.  They would be genetically designed to play different roles for the Imperium He foresaw.  These custom, genetically-engineered Perpetuals had a special name: Primarchs.  That was Erda's contribution.  Very important woman.

 

 

 Are the Sensei and the Star Child Perpetuals? 

 

 

You know how in 40k, things aren't really outright retconned, but explained later on?  Sometimes the explanation is that it was just No Wolves On Fenris propaganda, but other times it's like "this is the part we didn't tell you before"?  Looking back, the Sensei and the Star Child myth are likely related to Perpetuals.

 

As you saw above, Perpetuals kinda naturally find themselves in leadership roles, just because they have all this experience from being immortal and try to steer people around them, like how you would arrange furniture in your home to suit your preferences.  That's what the Sensei are, from what I remember in the 1st ed Chaos-related rulebooks.  Now as for the Star Child, something that could take the essence of the Emperor iirc...well...

 

In The Fury of Magnus, Magnus the Red got furious with Malcador the Sigilite in a secret meeting (a desperate attempt to try to turn the Traitor Primarch back into a Loyalist) and psychically fried him.  Malcador was a Perpetual, meaning he was immortal, but NOT invincible.  Perpetuals seem to still die from immense psychic or warp power, like their saving throw doesn't work on Mortal Wounds.  Iirc a group of Sensei were described as having been killed by the Inquisition, so I reckon they used psykers.  It wasn't a case of Malcador waiting for his rebirthing powers to kick in, he was a charred skeleton.  Another Perpetual gives up her life force/immortality/Perpetual power to resurrect Malcador.  This shows that, at least from one Perpetual to another, they can transfer whatever energy that causes their immortality.

 

In Plague War, we see a little girl in the modern era who could well be a Perpetual...except no one around her knew what a Perpetual was, so everyone but Guilliman believed her to be a Living Saint or a child imbued with the essence of the Emperor.  The Plague War was going badly for Ultramar and she had this ability to negate Chaos; some Death Guard was spewing toxic Chaos juice at some poor Imperial Guardsman and she'd wave a hand, turning it into mineral water, he'd be like, "Aaaaargh, wait, this tastes like Perrier."  If the Star Child was ever a thing, she'd be a top candidate.  She later burns herself out trying to save other people, dying in Guilliman's arms iirc.

 

The most interesting thing was the best possible clue as to her connection to the Emperor...if any...wasn't what the Imperials were saying about her, it was from some Daemons.  You know how in a game, your opponent probably has a less biased, more objective view of your army?  He's like, "I know you love your beautifully painted HQ, but that Fast Attack really wrecked my plan, they're your real MVPs."  Some Daemon hissed a name at this little girl heard only by psykers iirc, "Anathema," which is the name they usually reserved for the Emperor Himself.

 

 

 Conclusion: What Was Versus What Is 

 

 

We have clues as to what the Emperor once was.  Perpetual, from the very first kingdoms of humanity, etc.  Very powerful, but DEFINITELY NOT a god.  The whole Great Crusade was about the advance of reason.  He told Guilliman to make Word Bearers kneel in the ashes of their broken cathedrals at Monarchia so everyone knew He wasn't a god.

 

I think we can still meaningfully discuss exactly what the Emperor was.  Even the Perpetual Erda explained the gap between Him and her was akin to the gap between her and the rest of humanity.  It's like the Emperor needed a whole new category to Himself, like there's regular humans, psykers, navigators, Perpetuals and he'd be...Imperatorial Maximus.

 

Still, we can agree the Emperor was not a god, in 30k...BUT he might be one now, in 40k.

 

Godblight introduces this notion with the following case.  What is a god, like a Chaos god?  A Chaos god is just this supernatural force of nature made up of warp energy.  We associate it with a sentience/persona/identity, like an entity, but it might be how we give names to a weather phenomenon like a hurricane.  The Emperor was the most powerful psyker known, even moreso than Magnus.  He has been spoon-fed 1,000 souls a day, every day, for 10,000 years.  Then when the Great Rift opened, it magnified psychic powers of all psykers, even awakening them in latent ones in the Psychic Awakening sourcebooks.  So you have the following equation:

 

Most Powerful Psyker x 1000 x 365 x 10000 x Psychic Awakening = ???

 

At what point does all that psychic energy register as a Chaos god?  It's suggested late in the book the Emperor passed that threshold long ago, it was actually Mortarion noticing him breaching Nurgle's Garden and outright rezzing Roboute Guilliman.  If the book was an anime, Mortarion be shouting, "BAKA~NA/IMPOSSIBRE!!!"

 

So what exactly sat down on the Golden Throne at the end of the Horus Heresy?  We have a pretty good idea from the above.  Yet what sits there now remains a mystery.

 

And if He were to ever get up...that'll take another few novels to explain.

[Brother Dallo]

I’ll do you one better.

 

Why is the Emperor? 

[gaurdian31]

What is the Emperor? A miserable pile of secrets! Otherwise I think N1SB covers things really, really well.

[Karhedron]

Godblight contains a very good description of the possible options for what the Emperor is 40K. Spoilers for those who have not read Godblight yet.

 

Spoiler

The Eldar are probably the race with the best understanding of the Warp in 40K and even they do not know what the Emperor is. The Farseer Natasé explains that the Eldar cannot see the Emperor directly or divine what he is as his presence in the Warp burns away the strands of fate. Natasé says there is no single definition of what constitutes a "god" and it really comes down to power. In those terms, the Emperor is a god, as are the Chaos gods and the C'tan.

 

Natasé explains that there are several theories as to what the Emperor is now. He could be the soul of the same being that led the Great Crusade. It might be a reflection created in the Warp by the focussed belief of countless trillion human souls. It might even just be the power of the Golden Throne, sustained by sacrifice and essentially running on autopilot. This section almost feels like teasing the fans to some extent as it lists pretty much all the popular theories that we discuss on sites like this without giving any concrete answer.

 

Natasé sums up by saying that whatever the thing they call the Emperor in the 41st millenium actually is, it is real. It has power and it responds to faith. Therefore it is something Guilliman can tap into if he can bring himself to believe in it. 

 

[Scribe]

As far as what the 'God-Emperor' COULD be, I would point anyone with access, to The Carrion Throne.

 

Read what the masses of humanity behave like. Read what they feel like. The abject and unrelenting terror, and dread. Consider not just the psykers burned up in offering essentially to keep the lights on, considering the teeming trillions of souls, who are feeding their fear, hate, intolerance, and fanatical ignorance, into the Warp, all directed towards Him, on Terra.

 

Imagine, what kind of God-like being, that would, should, create in the Warp's reflection.

[jaxom]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

Godblight contains a very good description of the possible options for what the Emperor is 40K. Spoilers for those who have not read Godblight yet.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Eldar are probably the race with the best understanding of the Warp in 40K and even they do not know what the Emperor is. The Farseer Natasé explains that the Eldar cannot see the Emperor directly or divine what he is as his presence in the Warp burns away the strands of fate. Natasé says there is no single definition of what constitutes a "god" and it really comes down to power. In those terms, the Emperor is a god, as are the Chaos gods and the C'tan.

 

Natasé explains that there are several theories as to what the Emperor is now. He could be the soul of the same being that led the Great Crusade. It might be a reflection created in the Warp by the focussed belief of countless trillion human souls. It might even just be the power of the Golden Throne, sustained by sacrifice and essentially running on autopilot. This section almost feels like teasing the fans to some extent as it lists pretty much all the popular theories that we discuss on sites like this without giving any concrete answer.

 

Natasé sums up by saying that whatever the thing they call the Emperor in the 41st millenium actually is, it is real. It has power and it responds to faith. Therefore it is something Guilliman can tap into if he can bring himself to believe in it. 

 

One thing I really like about Godblight is how it also related to Talon of Horus.

Spoiler

There's most likely more than one Emperor within the Warp. The original Emperor, the uber-powerful Perpetual, who disrupts the strands of Fate (like all the other Perpetuals which is why Eldrad wiped most of them out) can exist simultaneously with Light of the Astronomicon Emperor, the incarnate belief in the Emperor's presence and guiding hand within the Astronomicon. I wonder if that may have been part of why the Emperor didn't want anyone worshipping him? It wouldn't empower him, but create a doppleganger warp-entity?

 

Edit: Scribe posted while I was working on the original post, but that neatly fits in with the horror of

Spoiler

a warp entity for each major Eccleisiarchy cult

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by jaxom

[Cactus]

5 hours ago, Brother Dallo said:

I’ll do you one better.

 

Why is the Emperor? 

This makes think of Abbot and Costello...

 

"Who's on first, What's on second and Idontknow's on the Golden Throne."

[Jamafore]

On 11/4/2022 at 1:06 AM, Arkangilos said:

To be fair, I understand that and agree. My question is more about what do *you* think based on what lore we do have.

 

Admittedly I never gave it much thought. I shall have to ponder this a bit and get back to you.

[Xenith]

If the Eldar, less populous than humans, could accidentally create a god through partying too hard, imagine what countless trillions of humans, all vehemntly believing that the Emperor already is a god, and worshipping that god every day of their lives, can achieve. 

 

Good point on the souls to power the throne. Relating to the Chaos gods, they need souls to survive also, and how many souls per day are they given - as in directly offered as a sacrifice to the gods? A few hundred? A few thousand over a few months campaign? Maybe an entire world after a decade of planning by a Tzeentchian magus. Still pittence compared to how many the Emperor consumes. 

 

In 30,000, he was essentially as a god to mortals, in the year 40,000 he is a god by any definition, and probably the most powerful - yet remains tethered to a physical shell on Terra. 

[Lord_Ikka]

15 minutes ago, Xenith said:

If the Eldar, less populous than humans, could accidentally create a god through partying too hard, imagine what countless trillions of humans, all vehemntly believing that the Emperor already is a god, and worshipping that god every day of their lives, can achieve. 

You have to remember that the entire Aeldari race is psychic though, which directly impacts the power that their thoughts/desires resonate in the warp. Most humans, while still having an impact on the warp unlike T'au, aren't psychic at all, so the much less numerous eldar could still have a vastly larger presence in the Warp compared to humanity. Not saying you're wrong about the cumulative effect that billions of human souls would have over 10k years, just the degree of "power" in each induvial member of the race is significantly greater on the point-ears side.

 

20 minutes ago, Xenith said:

Good point on the souls to power the throne. Relating to the Chaos gods, they need souls to survive also, and how many souls per day are they given - as in directly offered as a sacrifice to the gods? A few hundred? A few thousand over a few months campaign? Maybe an entire world after a decade of planning by a Tzeentchian magus. Still pittence compared to how many the Emperor consumes. 

Souls don't power the Golden Throne- the psykers that the Black Ships/Adeptus Astra Telepathica "sacrifice" are hooked up to the Astronomican, which sends out a psychic beacon for Navigators to orient to. Old lore had it that the Emperor himself powered the Astronomican and the psykers were sacrificed to him, but that has been changed over the years and now the Emperor and the Astronomican are separate- in the novel Vaults of Terra: the Hollow Mountain they clearly lay out that while the Emperor is somehow connected to it (whether that means he directs it in some way or just having it hooked up to him somehow makes it "holy" is unknown) he doesn't control the Astronomican beacon. 

 

As far as the Chaos Gods go, there are thousands of worlds just in the Eye of Terror- we've seen descriptions like the Planet of the Sorcerers or Sicarus that show billions of humans/mutants/others living on those worlds worshiping their Gods and sacrificing to them, and that is just direct sacrifice/prayer. Khorne doesn't care where the blood comes from, he just wants violent death, so any soul not protected by some sort of faith (like Gork/Mork and/or the Emperor) or having very little "soul" (T'au/Tyranid) would probably give him some sort of power. 

 

I agree that he is probably at God-level now, given what we've seen, but that isn't a great thing- the Chaos Gods themselves aren't really active so much as they are transcendent embodiments of passions/emotions/concepts. They require their Daemon-Princes, Greater Daemons, and various others to actually do things- the Gods don't intervene or act really at all (whether the Gods are sentient is a good question). So the Emperor being literally a God doesn't really help him or humanity, he needs agents to use his power properly and right now the best humanity has are Living Saints; while the Saints might be powerful mortals they don't come close to what a Greater Daemon could do. 

[jaxom]

6 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

You have to remember that the entire Aeldari race is psychic though, which directly impacts the power that their thoughts/desires resonate in the warp. Most humans, while still having an impact on the warp unlike T'au, aren't psychic at all, so the much less numerous eldar could still have a vastly larger presence in the Warp compared to humanity. Not saying you're wrong about the cumulative effect that billions of human souls would have over 10k years, just the degree of "power" in each induvial member of the race is significantly greater on the point-ears side.

Overall, I agree, but there are some points to consider. We don't know how big the Eldar population was prior to the Fall. Probably less than the Imperium's, but definitely not 'dying race' levels. The other bit is the difference between the numinous, many-meanings, symbolism ladden belief of the Aeldari and the more concrete imagination of humanity. Humanity may be better at shaping entities within the warp because their belief is in more structured avatars.

[phandaal]

So many people here asking "What is the Emperor," but no one asking "How is the Emperor."

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m sure he’s just fine. 

[Doghouse]

Now you listen here, he's not the Messiah he's a very naughty boy.

[WARMASTER_]

To be honest the Emperor since his internment on the Throne has mostly been a city sized psychic lighthouse battery locked in a perpetual life death cycle who needs charging [By which I mean fed 1000 tasty psychic souls] everyday 

[Captain Idaho]

I may be misremembering, but I seem to remember a pair of Perpetuals having a conversation about the Emperor and one says "you know what he is."

 

Now, I remember the context and thinking, "well that isn't a Perpetual, at least in the sense of the pair of them."

 

As the key is the English language and how dialogue would be structured. If you're talking about a 3rd party's true nature and it was the same as you and the other person in the conversation, wouldn't you say "you know he's one of us?"

 

To talk about him as something else implies he is something strongly to what is already established in context.

 

Of course it was yonks ago and I can't quite remember the lines or even book. Hell I can't quite remember the characters involved! I think Oll Persson and John Grammaticus but it could well have been Damon Prytanis. 

 

Anyway, the conversation from Erda quite firmly lays out that she isn't even aware what a Perpetual is, with the Emperor being the most powerful of them but appears is to the Perpetuals that they are to humanity.