Move through over and CC

[Fallen11]

Do you suffer that initiative penalty for cc since you moved through terrai? One player in our group insists that you still fight with I1 because rule says: Models that Charged through Difficult Terrain Pile-in at Initiative step 1.

Frag granades say - A unit that includes at least one model with frag grenades
makes attacks at its normal Initiative Step during an
Assault after it has successfully Charged through Difficult
Terrain or Dangerous Terrain, but still suffers any
penalties to Charge rolls imposed by Difficult Terrain
or Dangerous Terrain when resolving a Charge through
Difficult Terrain or Dangerous Terrain.

 

Move through cover says - A unit that contains only models with this special rule
suffers no penalty for moving or charging through
Difficult Terrain.

His reasoning is, yea, no where in that  rule move through cover says that you ignore pile in at initiative 1 as in frag granades, it only means you don't suffer -2 to charge distance.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Fallen11

[Valkyrion]

If a unit has frag grenades and move through cover then they suffer no penalty, but if they only have one of those things then they only benefit from that one thing.

[Fallen11]

10 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

If a unit has frag grenades and move through cover then they suffer no penalty, but if they only have one of those things then they only benefit from that one thing.

''Charging through difficult terrain inflicts two penalties: -2 to the charge roll, and strike at I1. Frag grenades deal with these individually, because they mitigate one penalty (strike at I1) but not the other (-2 to the roll). Move Through Cover deals with them collectively (unit suffers no penalty). IMO, the frag grenade wording reinforces the Move Through Cover interpretation - if it was intended to only remove one penalty and not the other, then it would have to be worded similarly to frag grenades (i.e. "The unit does not suffer the penalty to the charge roll, but still strikes at I1.") Instead, it just says "no penalty".''

This is reasoning from another place though.

[Valkyrion]

It's a permissive ruleset - if it says you can or can't do something then you can or can't do it, otherwise the rule remains unaltered. 

MTC says the unit suffers no penalty to moving or charging, both of which are independent of pile ins, initiative steps, combat etc which is where the frag grenades kick in.

 

Think of it logically - you throw frag grenades whilst charging so that the enemies behind cover are less prepared to receive your charge, so you get a benefit upon completing a charge. Moving through cover has no bearing on how well defended your opponent is, but you can move more freely within the confines of that cover so you get a benefit towards the charge.  Why would moving through cover remove your opponents defences? Why would throwing frag grenades enable you to move better? 

[Xenith]

I'd be inclined to say MTC ignores the penalty to I for charging. I recall the Leviathan used to have something like frag assault launchers to let it attack at initiative, however these have now been replaced by the MTC rule.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Trying to argue that charging through cover and reducing the initiative not being a penalty is a very...challenging task. 

 

Search functioning "charging through difficult terrain" brings up multiple references of the initiative drop being a penalty:

 

"If all of the enemy units Charged have been Pinned, the Initiative penalty for Charging through Difficult Terrain does not apply" pg. 182

 

"If a unit Charges into a multiple combat in which all the enemy units are locked in combat from a previous turn, the Initiative penalty for charging through Difficult Terrain does not apply. " pg. 189

 

[Cactus]

7 hours ago, Fallen11 said:

suffers no penalty for moving or charging through Difficult Terrain.

This the text your friend is asking for.

 

Is striking at initiative 1 a penalty? Yes.

Do you suffer the penalty as a result of charging in Difficult Terrain? Yes.

Do you have Move Through Cover? Yes. Then ignore the penalty.

[Valkyrion]

MTC mentions nothing about removing that penalty, it refers specifically to the penalty for moving and charging through difficult terrain, i.e the -2 modifier - not what happens after the charge has been completed. 

 

This is just an English exercise, I think. There is more than one penalty applied when moving or charging through difficult terrain - a modifier to a movement distance and a modifier to an Initiative value. Move through cover negates the modifier to the movement value. 

If it said 'a model with this special rule ignores the penalties for difficult terrain' then I'd agree that Initiative is included, but that's not what it says. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cactus]

SkimaskMohawk has already shown evidence that the writers consider it a "penalty for Charging through Difficult Terrain". I think that if MTC was intended as narrowly as you claim then the text would be more explicit.

 

At this point we can agree to disagree.

[Valkyrion]

I'm all for agreeing to disagree, and I'm not trying to provoke some obtuse argument as is the wont of many online - but @SkimaskMohawk examples specifically call out the Initiative penalty, whereas Move Through Cover specifically does not call out the Initiative penalty but clearly does call out the movement and charging penalty. 

 

I think there are two penalties to consider, and MTC deals with one part, Frag grenades deal with a different part.

[SkimaskMohawk]

26 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

MTC mentions nothing about removing that penalty, it refers specifically to the penalty for moving and charging through difficult terrain, i.e the -2 modifier - not what happens after the charge has been completed

 

Other than the rules directly refering to the initiative penalty as a penalty for charging through difficult terrain, I'm not sure what logical steps you're taking to make that claim.

 

MTC says a unit suffers no penalty for moving or charging through difficult terrain. It doesnt specify anything; its a blanket pass. You're arbitrarily assigning the distance penalty as the common link between movement and charging, but they're actually different penalties entirely. Moving applies -2 to the movement characteristic, while charging applies -2 to the charge distance. Which is specifically referred to?

 

Idk, obviously your argument is untenable; raw the only penalty for charging through difficult is the initiative modifier lol.

 

[Valkyrion]

Let's hypothesise Night Vision;

 

Real Version:

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule ignores the effects of Night Fighting (see page 308) and no model may make Shrouded rolls to negate Wounds inflicted by their attacks.

 

Pretend Version:

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule ignores the penalties for shooting imposed by Night Fighting (see page 308) and no model may make Shrouded rolls to negate Wounds inflicted by their attacks.

 

Does the pretend version allow units to ignore the Leadership penalty imposed by Night Fighting?  Certainly not. So Night Vision is a blanket ignoring of the rules for Night Fighting. 

I don't think Move Through Cover is such a blanket, I think it's designed to work only in respect of distance. 

 

Like I say, I'm not trying to be a jerk about this - I'm just reading the written words and coming to a different conclusion based on my understanding of those words. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fallen11]

Quote

A unit that includes at least one model with frag grenades
makes attacks at its normal Initiative Step during an
Assault after it has successfully Charged through Difficult
Terrain or Dangerous Terrain, but still suffers any
penalties to Charge rolls imposed by Difficult Terrain
or Dangerous Terrain when resolving a Charge through
Difficult Terrain or Dangerous Terrain.

Why make such distinction with frag granades,that it applies to initiative but it doesn't apply to terrain? By same logic, why not write for MtC that models still suffers Initiative penalty?

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Valkyrion said:

Let's hypothesise Night Vision;

 

Real Version:

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule ignores the effects of Night Fighting (see page 308) and no model may make Shrouded rolls to negate Wounds inflicted by their attacks.

 

Pretend Version:

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule ignores the penalties for shooting imposed by Night Fighting (see page 308) and no model may make Shrouded rolls to negate Wounds inflicted by their attacks.

 

Does the pretend version allow units to ignore the Leadership penalty imposed by Night Fighting?  Certainly not. So Night Vision is a blanket ignoring of the rules for Night Fighting. 

I don't think Move Through Cover is such a blanket, I think it's designed to work only in respect of distance. 

 

Like I say, I'm not trying to be a jerk about this - I'm just reading the written words and coming to a different conclusion based on my understanding of those words. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what that hypothetical is trying to do? You added a qualifier for shooting, so of course leadership wouldn't be affected. If it simply stated "penalty" then the functionality would be analogous to the written rules.

 

You really seem to be convinced that MTC excludes the initiative portion of the charging penalty because it also includes the movement phase penalty. There are 3 different ways to be affected by difficult terrain:

 

1. moving into difficult terrain 

2. moving through difficult terrain 

3. charging through difficult terrain 

 

These are the only categories on page 222. Under Charging Through Difficult Terrain, we are told you both lose charge distance and strike at Initiative 1. It is not partitioned by charge subphase and start of combat. The charge distance modifier is not called a penalty and the initiative modifier something else. They aren't even divided into different paragraphs; when you charge through difficult terrain, you are penalised by those two.

 

The rules reinforce that the initiative modifier is a penalty of charging though difficult terrain, because they explicitly name it one, multiple times.

 

So, when you look at move through cover and see you suffer no penalty for moving or charging through difficult terrain, you flip to page 222 for the rules that explain what those are. You then read "Charging through difficult terrain" to find what the penalty for that is. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Xenith]

On 11/4/2022 at 7:14 PM, Fallen11 said:

Why make such distinction with frag granades,that it applies to initiative but it doesn't apply to terrain? By same logic, why not write for MtC that models still suffers Initiative penalty?

 

Because the HH ruleset is a complex multilayered affair in which some special rules allow you to ignore some limited effects, while others allow much greater ignoring of effects.

 

Move through cover is the superior version of frag grenades. Frags allow you to ignore the I penalty, MTC allows you to ignore both I and M penalties.

 

We had this come up yesterday - Inexorable v Stubborn v Fearless.

 

All very similar rules, that do slightly different things, they could really have been called Fearless (1), Fearless (2) and Fearless (3).

The first ignores Ld penalties from combat res, but not Fear, the next is ignore Ld penalties from combat res and Fear, the next is always passes morale tests. 

[Fallen11]

23 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

Because the HH ruleset is a complex multilayered affair in which some special rules allow you to ignore some limited effects, while others allow much greater ignoring of effects.

 

Move through cover is the superior version of frag grenades. Frags allow you to ignore the I penalty, MTC allows you to ignore both I and M penalties.

 

We had this come up yesterday - Inexorable v Stubborn v Fearless.

 

All very similar rules, that do slightly different things, they could really have been called Fearless (1), Fearless (2) and Fearless (3).

The first ignores Ld penalties from combat res, but not Fear, the next is ignore Ld penalties from combat res and Fear, the next is always passes morale tests. 

 

Well, I was arguing in favor of MtC allowing to ignore both I and M penalties., since other person said, it only was for M penalties, that I penalties should apply and mendioned frag granades. Ergo, was trying to explain the situation that MTC should also work for I and M considering how it was worded.