Heavy Support - Havocs, Predators or Defilers?

[techsoldaten]

Been a while since there was a good Havocs versus Predator debate. What's your preference?

 

Lascannon Havocs have been letting me down. It's hard to get them into position, they're getting charged a lot, and scenery is getting in the way every game. 

 

Predators are starting to have more appeal to me. Being able to move and shoot without penalty, and being able to shoot in combat would solve the problems I've been running into. At the same time, it's really hard for them to get cover, and I don't want them getting shot off the board turn 1.

 

More anti-tank would be welcome in my army. Also looking at Defilers, but it feels like more guns are the safer bet. What would you do? 

[Cpt_Reaper]

I have what I affectionally refer to as my daemon battery - A defiler and two forgefiends. The amount of dakka they put out can be quite potent, especially when paired with a character to buff them. An Iron Warriors warlord with Daemonsmith, then further buffed with a Master of Possession, can turn them into a big threat.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Predators got both a durability buff (+1T) and a lethality buff (Soulshatter lascannons in the turret) with the latest codex which certainly makes them more interesting in the Havoc comparison.  For me however this argument boils down to availability of HQ buffs, both in general and in each specific army build.  So for example, I play a pretty CORE infantry-heavy Alpha Legion.  As a result, having a cheap foot Lord in the back handing out hit rerolls to Havocs is something that slots really easily into my usual builds, while a Warpsmith doesn't.

 

On the other hand, if you've got plenty of other vehicle models -- Daemon Engines or otherwise -- in your force, then it makes more sense to field the Predator since you have the opportunity to over-saturate your opponent's anti-tank assets.

[Bouargh]

I am not that convinced by Predator´s durability due to its movment limitations in cumbersome tables. I guess that good use of terrain and character biffs make the Havocs a safer selection to my taste and playing style. 

 

Defilers remain for me like oddballs. I guess it is a model a little bit overcosted and too big to safely wander the table. Yet I might put it before the predator mainly because it looks good and that its claws may make the difference in many cases... Making it more versatile than the Predator in many situations. But this is really not a choice driven for tactial reasons, whatever the argument I put before...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Here's another thought though: Vindicators.  If you really want to go with tanks, Vindicators still pack a punch and are T8/2+ save with the siege shield.

[Karhedron]

The move from D6 to 3+D3 has definitely made Vindicators look promising and the 2+ save stacks nicely with AoC. 

[TrawlingCleaner]

I'm likely to be an outlier but I think Defilers are a sleeper unit (IW). I run mine with Defiler Claw, Havoc Launcher and Twin Heavy Bolter and often without Character support.

It pulls double duty having a good ranged output and also able to deal a lot of damage in combat. It's relatively tough with 14W and the MoP is able to boost it's Invuln.

It's main weakness is that it's Cannon is Blast and the Claw is D6 dmg, the Cannon can be mitagated with the Methodical Anhilation Strat to count an enemy unit as double for Blast.

 

I rate the Defiler!

[Karhedron]

Hellbrutes are another unit that are worth a look. They pack a heavy weapon, are pretty durable and can punch pretty well in melee. They don't bring the volume of fire per point that some of the other options listed do but Twin Las and Multimelta are both pretty threatening.

[Verbal Underbelly]

Agreed on the vindicator front. They're a really interesting pick now and cheap. The short range gun has rarely been an issue for me. They're easy enough to ring fence with warm bodies.

[Tallarn Commander]

I'd agree with Trawling Cleaner that the Defiler seems to be more effective than my lascannon Havocs or my Predators.

 

Whenever I bring lascannon Havocs they often quickly get blown away.

 

My Predators perform better because their speed often keeps them out of line of site of much of the enemy counter-shooting (ideally only the Predator's rarget can see them) and their firepower reliably chips away at the enemy. 

 

But my Defiler (paired up with a Blood Slaughterer or Maulerfiend for target saturation) often gets significant results and can really dominate the battlefield. My Deffy is certainly more of a melee platform though. Its guns are nice and chip away at the enemy, but it's claws and scourge do the most work. It is best against non-screened large targets. My Deffy has taken out Mortarion and Knights, but struggled against mobs of Termagaunts.

[techsoldaten]

6 hours ago, Tallarn Commander said:

But my Defiler (paired up with a Blood Slaughterer or Maulerfiend for target saturation) often gets significant results and can really dominate the battlefield. My Deffy is certainly more of a melee platform though. Its guns are nice and chip away at the enemy, but it's claws and scourge do the most work. It is best against non-screened large targets. My Deffy has taken out Mortarion and Knights, but struggled against mobs of Termagaunts.

 

Yeah, it's Ad Mech / Knights that have me worried about a Defiler. A Questor outclasses a Defiler in melee and has better shooting. AdMech infantry have the ability to shoot one up from 30".

 

Range on lascannons has always appealed to me. I'm just not sure there's a good way to position them reliably. 

[abaumann]

In your opinions, for Alpha Legion, are lascannon havocs going to be a better choice due to the ability to redeploy? I’m upping a new force to 1500 points soon and it will require me to get rid of either my havocs or Defiler in that list to take the amount of Khorne detachment units I want, and will still have enough anti-tank with one of those units gone…just not sure which to get rid of. Might have a MoP for Defiler support but he doesn’t really keep up well on foot.

[DesuVult]

I will give a solid shout out to predators and vindicators.  They are such an off meta pick in my local meta they can actually disrupt some plans.

[Galron]

My vote goes to Vindicators. With my Iron Warriors and a siege master warpsmith they are outstanding and in a recent league really pulled their weight while my havocs tended to just die once we got 1k and higher. I now bring two with the expectation one will die. I need to print a 3rd and replace my deredeo.  

[Karhedron]

15 hours ago, techsoldaten said:

Yeah, it's Ad Mech / Knights that have me worried about a Defiler. A Questor outclasses a Defiler in melee and has better shooting.

 

While it is true that a Questoris knight is far better than a Defiler, it also costs a lot more. You can buy 2 Defilers and probably have some points left over for the price of a single Questoris. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

15 hours ago, abaumann said:

In your opinions, for Alpha Legion, are lascannon havocs going to be a better choice due to the ability to redeploy? I’m upping a new force to 1500 points soon and it will require me to get rid of either my havocs or Defiler in that list to take the amount of Khorne detachment units I want, and will still have enough anti-tank with one of those units gone…just not sure which to get rid of. Might have a MoP for Defiler support but he doesn’t really keep up well on foot.

 

I think so yes.  They can be redeployed, they can be Concealed, the Trait hit debuff helps with durability.

[Verbal Underbelly]

As with a lot of units in the chaos codex it really does depend on what characters, strats or legion you bring. Also, it's worth considering which units you actually like - for example I really don't like the daemon engine models so I've always gone with vindicators and predators.

 

The last game I played I used a vindicator and a soul-shatter pred backed up by a warpsmith (Nurgle themed Iron Warriors). I was generally happy with their performance throughout the game.  Being able to hand out +1 to hit and heal D3 wounds is quite nice. Kept one of my vehicles out of a damage bracket during the game. 

 

Someone above mentioned going core unit heavy which is very valid as well. Say you have a chaos lord with Mantle of Traitors you can hand out the +1 to hit to a havoc unit far away. 

[Snazzy]

Agreed on the Vindicator.  It has a really great niche of dealing with elite infantry.  But, we aren't here for that.

 

The Predator is best suited, IMO, for going up the side of the board and sniping at what you need.  People sleep on that 12 movement.  There are also good arguments for charging it at some infantry for the extra distance, and tarpitting.  The Predator meshes well with Contempt over Caution for that reason.  Still can't find a good argument for the Destructor variant, though.

[Verbal Underbelly]

I had a blast this weekend with a squad of heavy bolter havocs. Killed a Grey Knight strike squad over two turns. Used daemon shells on the first round and got lucky with three kills while the target was under tide of shadows.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

On the Havoc note, I've seen their durability issue helped by Rhinos in a few games. Start the Havocs in there, then move out and fire. If you want to run multiple squads, jam two in one Rhino and hide it behind another tank.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Another way I've seen Havocs used successfully is to jam a squad or two in a Dreadclaw, drop them in and unload Chaincannons or Heavy Bolters. That's not quite what we're talking about, but maybe it could be adapted to Lascannons or Missile Launchers.

On a related note, if using Iron Warriors, the Missile Launcher is an excellent weapon for Havocs specifically. Methodical Annihilation allows them to either smooth out the damage for Krak Missiles slightly by re-rolling one damage roll or max-out hilariously on frag missile shots. When you're already ignoring cover, either can be important. I could see that versatility being important against the new Guard. Firing 24 shots into Roughriders or maybe 12 into each of 2 Infantry Squads could be good.

For Word Bearers, you could use a Khorne Apostle with Epistle of Lorgar to give Wrathful Entreaty to one Khorne Havoc Squad and keep them always in Wanton Destruction, while giving another Warp Sight Plea to reroll 1's and ignore cover. Then when the group of them are charged, they're re-rolling hit rolls and maybe taking a couple down with them. Hexagrammatic Ward might help with return fire in a pinch.

[Verbal Underbelly]

Amazing advice. Especially for me as I play so infrequently that I still am not used to all the strategems. 

[techsoldaten]

Used 3 Laspreds in the last 3 games for my Black Legion army. Still getting my thoughts together but wanted to share some initial observations.

 

Prior to this, I'd been using 1 unit of Lascannon Havocs / 2 Obliterators / 5-man Terminator Squad. The Havocs concerned me, they didn't play much of a role in most games. Wanted a greater emphasis on ranged shooting.

 

Tactically, Laspreds could not be more different from Lascannon Havocs. Mostly, this comes down to rules for vehicles v infantry and how they can be exploited in different phases of the game. But also the different stats, the additional 25 points for the Laspred paid for added movement / durability seemed to make a difference in each match up.

 

- Deployment - Deploying ranged shooting, my goal is to find a clear lane to shoot up the biggest threat right away. A secondary goal is to make sure my big guns don't get shot off the table first. With Havocs, this typically meant putting them behind terrain, close to a character with an aura. The order in which they are deployed doesn't matter much, as long as I have a sense of where the target will be. 

 

It's different with Predators. They're larger, so I don't expect to get full cover from everything on the board. Instead, I was holding them back to be deployed last, and thinking about how they get at the target while minimizing opportunities for an opponent to shoot back. The other consideration was firing lanes, Predators have greater movement than Havocs so they can reach spots that Havocs can't.

 

In each game, I found the most favorable deployment involved bunching Predators together behind a building, away from my main force. They did take some shots first turn, but no damage. This contrasts with Havocs, who would regularly lose a wound or two in the first turn of games.

 

- Wanton Destruction - Goes without saying, but Wanton Destruction is important for 3 tanks firing Lascannons. I got 6s and the extra attack in each game. This made a difference fighting against Imperial Knights, was able to take out an Armiger and leave another with 2 wounds before he got to move.

 

- Movement Phases - In general, the increased movement of Predators was a benefit. As a ranged firepower unit, moving them up the board seemed counter-intuitive (I ran a static gunline in 8th,) but proved necessary. Something Havocs struggled with was getting into position, each game it felt like a turn or two was being wasted while they were outmaneuvered by opponents. There was a lot less of that with Predators, they were "in the game" each turn because they were better able to keep up with the targets I wanted to have them shoot.

 

That said, hated it when the Predators were bracketed. In a game against Orks, a situation arose where I was less than half an inch off from having LOS on a Buggy that really needed to be destroyed. Could not get where I needed to get a shot off and there was no way to get through intervening terrain. The Predator was neutered for the rest of the game, where a unit of Havocs could have climbed to a second level and maybe even shot that turn. This was more than a little frustrating.

 

- Combat - Big Guns Never Tire is an interesting rule. When it comes to sizing up Havocs versus Predators, I wanted to see what difference in actually made and sought out opportunities to get the Predators into combat.

 

I've lost Havocs in cc many times, they often become the priority target because they are carrying the best guns in my army. May just be me, but it seems like they are an attractive target for elite / FA units, like Sanguinary Guard, Seekers and Harlequins. Opponents seem willing to devote some of their best resources to take them out. 

 

This was different in my games with Predators. Orks charged with Gretchin / Beast Snaggas, Knights charged with Armigers / Paladins, Tyranids charged with Warriors / Hormagaunts. With the exception of the Knights, they were trying to wrap up the tanks for a few turns while working on the rest of my army. They also had the problem of close combat being their best option, this would have been different facing AdMech / Dark Eldar.

 

Being able to shoot back while in combat was interesting. Lascannons and Twin-linked bolters were good for a few dead somethings each turn, and combat attrition played a role in the resolution of each fight. I did only lost Predator in melee, but several were damaged down to their lowest bracket before combat was resolved. To give you a sense of the impact on the game, in combat with a Paladin, one of my Predators was able to do 13 wounds before being stomped to death. In my book, softening it up to be destroyed by another Predator in the 5th turn was a win.

 

In any case, the Predators did not prove to be push overs. Although there was a -1 to hit, Laspreds are firing lascannons. All you need is one to take out a model, and there's some sense to getting locked up with elite troops.

 

- List Considerations - This is 9th edition, my take on the game is everything needs to keep moving in order to score objectives at all times. Putting aside Havocs for a moment, I found Predators to be useful for ranged shooting and resilient against light infantry. They can pose a threat in melee to larger targets due to the Big Guns rule, and this shouldn't be overlooked.

 

So far, I've been impressed with their performance and will continue playing them against other armies. I expect to find some hard counters and continue to optimize for a while to come. But I'm very optimistic.

 

The one thing I'd say about lists at this point is it's very useful to have a melee specialist around for when they get charged. I would have loved to have a Lord Discordant or Daemon Prince nearby when being charged by a Knight, or to be able to clear Gretchin hordes more effectively. As stated in the thoughts about deployment, it seems natural to want to segment Predators away from the rest of the army, which means HQs might not be nearby as the game goes on. But there's ways to compensate for this. 

 

I didn't focus on screening Predators during these games, but having some Cultists on hand is something I'd like to explore. Mostly for preventing charges, but also for capping points. There were a couple times I left a tank on an objective longer than I should, it feels like Chaos Predators in general need to move around a lot to be effective.

 

I haven't gone into the impact of Stratagems / Legion Traits, but I am playing Black Legion and benefitted from Black Crusaders in a couple instances.