Daemon Detachments for TS Armies

[Xenith]

I'm keen to hear if you've been running these, what you've been running and how they did. From the looks of things daemons can be as mortal woundy as us, maybe even more so - better still, daemons can be taken as 25% of your list without breaking army special rules, so we can have 500pts of daemons at 2k.

 

What I thought might be good are these:

 

340 - Lord of change - baleful sword, master mutator (anyone suffering a MW from the model takes another on a 2+), bolt of change (better firestorm), infernal gateway (much, much, much better astral blast), then add born of sorcery (+1 to cast for +3 total) and the soul eater stave (regen wounds when you cause mortals) to taste.

150 - 10 pink horrors

490pts+2CP.

 

Also for a bit more variety

340 - Lord of change - As above

70 - 10 blue horrors

75 - 3 flamers or 90 - 3 screamers

485/500pts+2cp

 

Here you have a bit more fast flamer, or some very fast dangerous melee for not too many points that can both score you engage. In particular, both flamer and screamer units have almost as many wounds as 10 Tzaangors, but have a much better save vs shooting, more damage output, and much faster. units of 3 are less able to do RND though, but can still score engage. I definitely think it's worth a try! 

 

Edit when I had more time:

The lord of change, even at 340pts seems to be a MW machine gun. With the warlord trait, he's casting at +3 until he loses a load of wounds (shouldn't be an isue with the soul eater), then on average is causing 4 wounds on a single target with bolt of change (cast on a roll of 4+), but on 1W model units, you're looking at 6MW. Infernal gateway (needs a 5 on the dice) then does D3 to the target and each unit within 3", and a flat 3MW to them on a roll of 9+.  He can then smite, super smiting on a natural 8+. After all that, any unit that took a MW takes another on a 2+. 

 

Say you target a unit of 20 cultists with a nearby character with all this. You'd kill 6 from bolt, 2 and 2 on the character from gate, then another 2 from smite, then both units would take an extra wound for 11 dead cultists and a serious wounded character. 

 

A unit of terminators with apothecary say, would see 3 MW from bolt, and another wound from the death, 2 MW from gate and 2 on the apoc, killing another, then smite does 2 more, for 8MW in total. Master mutator then puts a 9th MW on the terms and a third on the apoc. Some of that may get saved from the 6+++ however. This also assumes you roll bad and don't super smite or get a 9 for gateway. 12MW when rolling average to poor isn't bad. 

 

I think this is much killer than anything the TS codex can currently offer - Ahriman can get maybe 10 from firestorm, doombolt, smite if he rolls 9+ and 11+.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by Xenith

[Tichinde]

I think i'm going to try a fluxmaster with Flamers (maybe with an exhalted to buff them) 

 

Flamers are pretty competitive at the moment (and impossible to buy anywhere) so they'll no doubt be nerfed by the time I paint any!

 

I also love the look of Screamers so might try them too. I plan on keeping the detachment small (so no LOC).

[Xenith]

Looking at the flamer profiles again, they are point for point, much better than rubrics, with a 3+ invuln against ranged, 3W then 50% more firepower than a flamer rubric for 1pt more. 

 

As I was looking at the LoC also for melee/killing potential, I hadn't really considered the other HQ choices - is there actually a way for a non-Warlord Daemon unit to get a warlord trait? Otherwise just make the daemon the warlord as their traits are sometimes stronger than TS ones. A fateskimmer for 140pts can also take some horrors and the trait for a total +2 to cast, making another reliable caster for a lot fewer points than the LoC. 

[Casual Heresy]

I'd quite like to try adding in a Lord of Change or Kairos to my force, but not a huge fan of horror models. Can brimstone horrors be taken as troops?

[Ahzek451]

3 hours ago, Casual Heresy said:

I'd quite like to try adding in a Lord of Change or Kairos to my force, but not a huge fan of horror models. Can brimstone horrors be taken as troops?

Negative. Blue horros or pink are your flavors for troops. 

[Casual Heresy]

26 minutes ago, Ahzek451 said:

Negative. Blue horros or pink are your flavors for troops. 

 

And now I regret selling those old metal horrors I had. Ah well, that's a future problem. Need to actually finish my TSons list before I add allies!

[Xenith]

I've been focussing on lords of change when the real danger is flamers! Here's Mani Cheemas list that came second in a GT recently:

 

Spoiler

Mani Cheema 2nd Place US Open Kansas City 2022 – Thousand Sons - Chaos Daemons + Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [19 Cabal Points, 86 PL, 1,472pts, 3CP] ++ + Configuration + Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) Cults of the Legion: Cult of Duplicity Detachment Command Cost Game Type: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim

 

+ HQ +

Ahriman [3 Cabal Points, 9 PL, 180pts]: 11. Gaze of Hate, 21. Presage, 23. Temporal Surge, Disc of Tzeentch

Exalted Sorcerer [3 Cabal Points, 8 PL, 145pts, -2CP]: 11. Tzeentch's Firestorm, 13. Doombolt, Athenaean Scrolls, Disc of Tzeentch, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Master Misinformator, Rehati, Stratagem: Relic, Stratagem: Warlord Trait, Warlord

Infernal Master [2 Cabal Points, 5 PL, 90pts, -1CP]: 23. Temporal Surge, 5. Glimpse of Eternity, 6. Malefic Maelstrom, Stratagem: Sorcerous Arcana, Umbralefic Crystal

 

+ Troops +

Rubric Marines [2 Cabal Points, 12 PL, 141pts]: Icon of Flame . Aspiring Sorcerer: 13. Doombolt, Warpflame pistol . 5x Rubric Marine w/ warpflamer: 5x Warpflamer

Rubric Marines [2 Cabal Points, 6 PL, 105pts]: Icon of Flame . Aspiring Sorcerer: 32. Pyric Flux, Inferno Bolt Pistol . 4x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

Rubric Marines [2 Cabal Points, 6 PL, 105pts]: Icon of Flame . Aspiring Sorcerer: 22. Weaver of Fates, Inferno Bolt Pistol . 4x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

Rubric Marines [2 Cabal Points, 6 PL, 105pts]: Icon of Flame . Aspiring Sorcerer: 12. Glamour of Tzeentch, Inferno Bolt Pistol . 4x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

Rubric Marines [2 Cabal Points, 6 PL, 105pts]: Icon of Flame . Aspiring Sorcerer: 31. Cacodaemonic Curse, Inferno Bolt Pistol . 4x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

+ Elites +

Scarab Occult Terminators [1 Cabal Points, 21 PL, 365pts] . Scarab Occult Sorcerer: 23. Temporal Surge, 31. Empyric Guidance, Inferno combi-bolter, Protégé . 8x Terminator: 8x Inferno combi-bolter, 8x Prosperine khopesh

 

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn [1 PL, 23pts]: Chaos Spawn

Tzaangor Enlightened [3 PL, 54pts]: Aviarch, Divining spears . 2x Enlightened . . 2x Disc of Tzeentch: 2x Disc blades

Tzaangor Enlightened [3 PL, 54pts]: Aviarch, Divining spears . 2x Enlightened . . 2x Disc of Tzeentch: 2x Disc blades

 

++ Vanguard Detachment -3CP (Chaos - Daemons) [27 PL, 525pts, -3CP] ++ + Configuration + Chaos Allegiance: Tzeentch Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

+ HQ +

Fateskimmer [9 PL, 150pts]: Bolt of Change, Infernal Gateway, Retinue of Horrors, Staff of change

+ Elites +

Flamers [6 PL, 125pts]: Pyrocaster . 4x Flamer: 4x Flickering flames

Flamers [6 PL, 125pts]: Pyrocaster . 4x Flamer: 4x Flickering flames

Flamers [6 PL, 125pts]: Pyrocaster . 4x Flamer: 4x Flickering flames

 

++ Total: [19 Cabal Points, 113 PL, 1,997pts] +

 

So MSU Duplicity rubrics for objectives, then as many flamers as possible. Though looking at the list, I think it's illegal, or otherwise doesn't get AGENTS OF CHAOS as there's over 25% of the army as Daemonic allies. I'm surprised to only see one unit of SOT's in there, but I guess with the flamers you don't need them so much!

Edited December 7, 2022 by Dr_Ruminahui
Fixed formatting errors

[Karhedron]

I would not be in a hurry to copy that list. GW hinted pretty heavily in the last Metawatch that they are aware of Flamers over-performing currently. Expect them to be in line for a hefty wallop with the nerf bat.

[Cleon]

1 hour ago, Xenith said:

I've been focussing on lords of change when the real danger is flamers! Here's Mani Cheemas list that came second in a GT recently:

 

  Hide contents

 

 

So MSU Duplicity rubrics for objectives, then as many flamers as possible. Though looking at the list, I think it's illegal, or otherwise doesn't get AGENTS OF CHAOS as there's over 25% of the army as Daemonic allies. I'm surprised to only see one unit of SOT's in there, but I guess with the flamers you don't need them so much!

 

You have to remember that the 25% is worked on Power level, and by adding the 5th Rubric (6th member) to the squad he's fluffing his TS power level to make 27 less than a quarter (needs min 81 TS PL, he has 87).

[Xenith]

Ah, gamey.

 

Yea, they're abusing flamers while they can - as I said above, they're basically Super versions of Rubric marines with better save, wounds, movement and shooting for ~2points more.