BA - Nephilim Observations

[Morticon]

Heya all!

 

I just wanted to share some of the successes and failures and general observations I've had with the most recent matched play set. Most of this will be very self-evident, but I hope that collating it in one place gives players something more to think about. 

 

Enjoy!!

 

 

1.  Special Characters are golden - This is a general observation for most 40k armies at the moment, given the fact that special characters come with enough "relic equivalent" gear to warrant their inclusion without sucking up valuable starting CP.   Dante and Astorath are the clearest winners here, but Lemartes may a little play if structured accordingly. 

 

2.  Successors take a back seat - This is almost entirely related to the stronger reliance on point 1 above.  Where it's not the case and you're using generic characters, you may still want to flavour accordingly.  As someone that was using successors for almost all of Nachmund, this is a big change.  Though, I'm enjoying the reliability of the +1 wound on charge, and +1".  

 

3.  Our secondary game is VERY strong - Fury, Death From Above, Relentless Assault and even Blade are solid, solid picks but require you to BUILD towards.  People were strongly building towards secondary/mission play in Nachmund, but I believe it's now beyond "advisable" and an absolute necessity.  You must build towards the secondary game. 

 

4.  DFA vs Fury - I've played both of these extensively and wanted to share the observations I had.  The first is that DFA is VERY easy to score.; at first glance, even unfairly so. However, in order to score it as reliably as you want you MUST, A: lean in to the build, B: Deploy accordingly.  I've found that in games where I rely on DFA, I am on the backfoot if I go second.  In fact, every game I've played for DFA and deployed largely off board, and then gone second...i've lost.  Likewise, every game I've gone first with DFA, I've won.   This is too big a gamble.

 

FURY requires even more of a lean in to the build.  You *should* be  taking a DC captain, and you should be taking minimum of 3 DC squads.  You may even want to take Lemartes in this case. The benefits of this secondary mean that you can deploy largely on the board and assert board dominance early- rather than waiting to come in from reserve. 

 

5.  Certain secondaries stack better than others - While Relentless Assault is VERY tempting- you do also need to build towards it- and you do need to sacrifice vanguard units (as in forward moving units, not actual Vanguard Veterans!) in order to score it.  This means that you want to try and stack something like Engage or Retrieve Nephilim Data with it.  The issue is that those "supporting" secondaries, while stacking well, have more strict requirements to achieve.  RA only need a "toe in" to the enemy deployment zone, where RND and EOAF need you to be deeper in.  

 

Banners and Shock Assault are an excellent combo for BA that play VERY well to our strengths.  Raising banners forces enemies on to objectives they dont want to be on to deprive you of points.  This really stacks well with our primary game.  In most games I feel this would be a go to. Adding Fury on to this is brilliant, as you will often need to kill units off of objectives to get Shock.  This means you can have a 7/8 point swing from the combo. 

 

6. Flip Combo - One of the most important key combos in relics/WLTs is the Visage + Rites combo on a biker character (Usually a Chaplain or Cpatain).  The ability to boost 20" onto an objective and just steal it means an easy 4 points for Shock Attack. If you're going heavy on DC because of FURY, or using attack bikes extensively (like I do) then this helps hold objectives. 

 

 

KEY UNITS

 

Here are some amazing units I've had decent success with in Nephilim. 

 

1.  Astorath - More so than ever before, Astorath has been incredible.  The 2+ save, and the Axe (almost always used with Mantra) make him very, very killy. In my last tournament I used him with Blade of Sanguinius three times (scoring 15 twice). Don't forget the VERY useful Soul Warden WLT!!!

 

2.  PlasmaCeptors - Madly pricey, but their ability to come down and destroy a unit guarantees 4 points.  I would play 4-6  of these (don't go minimum, just because you need to ensure what you're targeting dies. They then combo VERY well with a Priest, but absolutely require a Captain.  Don't be overly aggressive. Use their 18" range - and don't always go for the juiciest target if it means you can keep them alive for a turn or two longer.  Remember, they can also use Wings - meaning you get some really good bang for your buck.  And if any do die, you can always use the priest to bring back your 60 point model!!!

 

3. Jump DC and SG - These are the standard units used extensively.  For DC,  everyone seems to have gravitated to the 165 build  - JPs and 4 hammers.  Absolutely devastating little squad here.  Many competitive lists are bringing 2, some are squeezing in three.  If you lean in to these guys, consider Fury.  They really do a lot of great heavy lifting and can go either DFA or Fury for your flexibility. The same can be said with SG and DFA - just be cautious of how many units are on/off board.  More than 4 SG models in a unit ups their PL by a whopping 10!!! 

 

4.  Attack Bikes - Something of a trademark of my playstyle, I'm still enamoured by these guys.  2 squads of 2 attack bikes allow you to put four bikes in reserve for 1 CP.  Considering they can come on- blast something, get 4points for DFA and then remain a DFA threat make them very very very valuable. Add to the fact they're core, they get to benefit from a host of 

 

5.  Dev Pod - I've had mixed success with this.  The dev pod allows us to score DFA in turn one, when we otherwise would not.  The issue is, it's not super reliable and they just don't do much but die after - so you have to ensure the trade - that often means investing CP or character support. 

 

6.  Assault Squads - 100 points for 2 Meltaguns, 2 LCs and 5 jumpy bodies is GREAT. (Don't forget meltabomb strat!) These guys make action secondaries or shock or DFA or RA really worthwhile!  A hidden gem whose inclusion is only stifled by how much i rely on attack bikes. 

 

7. Terminators - Terminators seem to be a little our of favour, but actually provide amazing value for points support.  The teleport homer is a non-negotiable as you can deploy them on the field, use the homer in turn one, and then have them count as a DFA unit.  Alternatively, you can place into reserve, and have them bounce from where they land subsequently.  Two builds are noteworthy - 170 points gets you 5 LC terms.  In BA doc mode, that's 31 LC attacks!! Really, really solid.  With priest support you stack their tactical use even more. With 2+/5++/6+++ and W3, they don't go down cheaply, and that means that if they take one or two casualties, you can immediately bounce them into reserve.  This is the best case scenario, as when they deploy again, you can use your Priest to bring one back, placing more than 3" closer to the enemy, making for an easy 4" charge.  The other build is the chainfist shooty terms at 195.  Meta depending these guys can offer some fair support, and can even pick off some chaff with their 20 SB shots, getting DFA without even charging.  

 

 8. Land Speeders - While not core, and pricier than attack bikes, their ability to move 18" means two single units provide excellent units to grab Relentless Assault.  Alternatively for 255 points you get 3 models that can have a spread coherency, 18 T5 wounds, that have 6 melta shots and 18 Assault Cannons shots - all of which that can act as a good mortal wound sponge (pop off Armour of Contempt Strat!) protecting your valuable squishy bodies. 

 

 

That's it for me! Hope this gives people something to think about!! 

 

 

 

 

 

[Xenith]

I had automatically assumed that DFA was jump unit only. That's a big revelation, or has it changed in Nephilim? Normally I'd favour behind enemy lines over Relentless, however the wording to Wholly Within for BEL makes me think again!

 

Not played with my BA since AoC was brought in, but glad to see they're doing well and we have some options! 

[Karhedron]

Our relative success is based on a small number of good units and some strong secondaries. Whilst it is good that we can still compete at the top tables, it does mean that successful BA armies tend to look rather samey. 

 

I very much agree with Morticon's assessment of units and most of his "best" units crop up in my TAC list. The only units I don't run are Astaroth (because I have a soft spot for Lemartes) and RAS because I haven't finished painting a squad yet since the price drop.

[Jolemai]

59 minutes ago, Xenith said:

I had automatically assumed that DFA was jump unit only. That's a big revelation, or has it changed in Nephilim? Normally I'd favour behind enemy lines over Relentless, however the wording to Wholly Within for BEL makes me think again!

 

Not played with my BA since AoC was brought in, but glad to see they're doing well and we have some options! 

 

Nope, anything arriving from Reserves. I use this quite a bit with my normal Firstborn list (so stuff in Pods, Scouts, Terminators...) Like Morticon says, you need to build for it - especially with Firstborn 

 

I wish regular Land Speeders went as fast as a LSS... Haven't managed to get an RA points with one or my Attack Bikes yet, but I've never considered putting the Bikes in Strategic Reserves for DFA purposes 

[Morticon]

13 hours ago, Xenith said:

I had automatically assumed that DFA was jump unit only. That's a big revelation, or has it changed in Nephilim? Normally I'd favour behind enemy lines over Relentless, however the wording to Wholly Within for BEL makes me think again!

 

It's a great option! And weirdly, hasn't changed since before - just offers more points now.  As for Relentless, the only issue is that it now competes in the same slot as  a very viable Shock Tactics.
 

12 hours ago, Karhedron said:

The only units I don't run are Astaroth (because I have a soft spot for Lemartes) and RAS because I haven't finished painting a squad yet since the price drop.

How are you finding Lemartes?  I really wish he had Death Visions- seems like such a slip up that he doesn't.  
 

11 hours ago, Jolemai said:

I wish regular Land Speeders went as fast as a LSS... Haven't managed to get an RA points with one or my Attack Bikes yet, but I've never considered putting the Bikes in Strategic Reserves for DFA purposes 

 

They are!!! Land Speeders and LSS are both 18".  However, Landspeeder Tornadoes and Typhoons are 16"!  

[appiah4]

Typhoons make up for that 2" by having very good reach IMO but Tornadoes are just lame..

[Karhedron]

9 hours ago, Morticon said:

How are you finding Lemartes?  I really wish he had Death Visions- seems like such a slip up that he doesn't.  

 

I find he is good if you are running Death Company. For 15 points over a regular Chaplain he gets an improved Crozius and Black Rage which seems about fair.

 

The big bonus though is rerolled charges for all DC units within 6" (including himself). Use this with Commanding Oratory to auto-chant Canticle of Hate and you can potentially have multiple DC squads dropping in from Reserves, needing 7" charges with full rerolls. If you are planning to lean on the DC to do your heavy lifting (possibly scoring Fury of the Lost) then Lemartes is excellent. If you are using other units then Astorath is the superior choice.

[Jolemai]

At least you can use the strategum to use two DV with him. Better than nothing...

[Morticon]

18 hours ago, Jolemai said:

At least you can use the strategum to use two DV with him. Better than nothing...

I saw that on games-workshop, but I don't believe you can? Unless there is something I missed.  He isn't listed as having Death Visions, so cant use Death Vision abilities, surely?

[Jolemai]

Lemartes can't use them regularly, no. However, the stratagem only requires the model to have the <Death Company Character> keyword, which he qualifies for.

Of course, tournaments may well house rule against this, but it's legal.

[The Unseen]

Wait, the only named Death Company Character... Doesn't have Death Visions? The unique thing BA get for Death Company Characters? That's dumb. Real dumb. If anything it's probably something they missed rather than a deliberate decision.

[Morticon]

14 hours ago, Jolemai said:

Lemartes can't use them regularly, no. However, the stratagem only requires the model to have the <Death Company Character> keyword, which he qualifies for.

Of course, tournaments may well house rule against this, but it's legal.

 

Good catch. Odd, but, as it's worded, seems to be fine. Especially with the second bullet point.  

2 hours ago, The Unseen said:

Wait, the only named Death Company Character... Doesn't have Death Visions? The unique thing BA get for Death Company Characters? That's dumb. Real dumb. If anything it's probably something they missed rather than a deliberate decision.

 

I thought that too initially, but could be an attempt at "fluff" - being that Lemartes is keeping the visions at bay.  Still....silly though. 

[appiah4]

On 11/18/2022 at 3:42 AM, Morticon said:

 

Good catch. Odd, but, as it's worded, seems to be fine. Especially with the second bullet point.  

 

I thought that too initially, but could be an attempt at "fluff" - being that Lemartes is keeping the visions at bay.  Still....silly though. 

I still can't get over how they turned Lemartes into what he is today and basically gave his entire old fluff to some ugly dude with an axe..

[Karhedron]

37 minutes ago, appiah4 said:

I still can't get over how they turned Lemartes into what he is today and basically gave his entire old fluff to some ugly dude with an axe..

 

They kind of turned him into a mirror of Mephiston. Mephy has overcome the Red Thirst while Lemmy has overcome the Black Rage. They are playing up the dual nature of the flaw.

[Xenith]

The BA won the Kansas open recently with the following:

 

Spoiler

 

Again, a spammy, but aggressive army. I dont thin it's as optimised as I would have it. The Vanguard is just wasteful when you could switch everything to a batallion. You need to add ~200pts for 2 more units of incursors or intercessors and drop 1 elite slot. You can probably drop one sanguard unit to achieve both. 

 

I'd have tried something like this. You lose 1 SG unit, gain 4 CP and 2 additional Obsec units, then have ~60pts remaining to do other stuff like add in 3 more death co to make the units a bit more resilient. You lose out slightly in raw killing power, but gain board control and a wider range of secondaries, like you can stick some incursors into the opposing DZ turn 3 instead of having to keep your SG/DC there if the opponent has moved out. 

 

Spoiler

[b]+++ BA Kerstetter List improved (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [114 PL, 5CP, 1,945pts] +++[/b]

[b]++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Blood Angels) [114 PL, 5CP, 1,945pts] ++[/b]

[b]+ Configuration +[/b]

[b]**Chapter Selector**:[/b] Blood Angels

[b]Battle Size [6CP]:[/b] 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) 

[b]Detachment Command Cost[/b]

[b]Game Type:[/b] 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim

[b]+ HQ +[/b]

[b]Commander Dante [9 PL, 1CP, 165pts]:[/b] Warlord

[b]Lemartes [6 PL, 120pts]:[/b] 3. Exhortation of Rage, 4. Mantra of Strength, Litany of Hate

[b]Sanguinary Priest [7 PL, -1CP, 155pts]:[/b] Astartes Chainsword, Bolt pistol, Chapter Command:  Chief Apothecary, Jump Pack, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

[b]+ Troops +[/b]

[b]Assault Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 95pts][/b]
. 4x Assault Intercessor: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol
. Assault Intercessor Sgt: Astartes Chainsword, Heavy Bolt Pistol

[b]Incursor Squad [5 PL, 105pts][/b]
. 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades
. Incursor Sergeant

[b]Incursor Squad [5 PL, 105pts][/b]
. 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades
. Incursor Sergeant

[b]+ Elites +[/b]

[b]Death Company Marines [8 PL, 165pts]:[/b] Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine w/ chainsword and bolt pistol
. 4x Death Company Marine w/ thunder hammer: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Thunder hammer

[b]Death Company Marines [7 PL, 90pts][/b]
. 5x Death Company Marine w/ chainsword and bolt pistol: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Frag & Krak grenades

[b]Death Company Marines [8 PL, 165pts]:[/b] Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine w/ chainsword and bolt pistol
. 4x Death Company Marine w/ thunder hammer: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Thunder hammer

[b]Sanguinary Ancient [7 PL, -1CP, 110pts]:[/b] Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword, Stratagem: Relic, Wrath of Baal

[b]Sanguinary Guard [17 PL, 220pts][/b]
. Sanguinary Guard: Encarmine sword, Inferno pistol
. Sanguinary Guard: Encarmine sword, Inferno pistol
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

[b]Sanguinary Guard [17 PL, 220pts][/b]
. Sanguinary Guard: Encarmine sword, Inferno pistol
. Sanguinary Guard: Encarmine sword, Inferno pistol
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

[b]+ Fast Attack +[/b]

[b]Assault Squad [6 PL, 105pts]:[/b] Jump Pack
. Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Combat shield, Inferno pistol, Lightning Claw
. Space Marine w/Eviscerator: Eviscerator
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

[b]+ Heavy Support +[/b]

[b]Whirlwind [7 PL, 125pts]:[/b] Whirlwind castellan launcher

Created with [url=https://battlescribe.net]BattleScribe[/url]

 

[The Unseen]

You spent 200 pts to make the list worse. Marine troops are terrible, so spending pts on them is mostly wasted. His list doesn't need CP except for the pregame move (which is why the DC squads are all size 5, keeps the strat at 1 CP) and suppression fire, then very occasionally an interrupt, since we have basically no other strats worth using, starting with 2 CP means you have enough for the whole game if you ration them out properly

 

The only change I'd make to that list are find the pts to upgrade the Incursors to Infiltrators to help vs the new daemon menace

[INKS]

why does he split his DC like that? why not have them all in one part of the list and then no DC in the other part of his list?

is there a reason I am missing?

[Xenith]

2 hours ago, The Unseen said:

You spent 200 pts to make the list worse. Marine troops are terrible, so spending pts on them is mostly wasted. His list doesn't need CP except for the pregame move

 

Maybe! Listening to a podcast with Zaak, he said he would like Teeth of Terra on the priest, and was waering between the eliminators and a second unit of incursors, so you can spend 30pts to swap elims for incursors, then you need 120pts for a unit of infiltrators. Another CP then nets you quake bolts, meaning DC/SG can operate without needing a chaplain/warlord nearby. You drop from 8 to 7 beatstick units, but gain 4CP, and a lot of board control and options for banners, screening stuff out, eating overwatch, an get the ability to bring SG/DC back for 0CP each turn. You even gain another melee option of you ToT on the priest. So sure, it makes the list worse at doing the one thing it does, but it allows the list to do 2-3 other things too. A large part of the strategy is to sacrifice characters to keep the SG alive through sacrifice, with 5 cp you don't need Dante as the warlord and can take Angel Exemplar to get artificer armour or adamantine cloak on someone to make them even better at that role - or stick exemplar (foresight) and armour indomitus on the priest for a turn 3+ blocker, with rerollable 3++ save. 

[Jolemai]

A lot of it depends on what you want to do and how you want to play. Not everyone can pull off an ABC list and sometimes, the mission packs/meta cater towards the primary/action game better than the charging game (yes I know that list has a large obsec/re-roll bubble).

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Xenith said:

Maybe! Listening to a podcast with Zaak, he said he would like Teeth of Terra on the priest, and was waering between the eliminators and a second unit of incursors, so you can spend 30pts to swap elims for incursors, then you need 120pts for a unit of infiltrators. Another CP then nets you quake bolts, meaning DC/SG can operate without needing a chaplain/warlord nearby. You drop from 8 to 7 beatstick units, but gain 4CP, and a lot of board control and options for banners, screening stuff out, eating overwatch, an get the ability to bring SG/DC back for 0CP each turn. You even gain another melee option of you ToT on the priest.

 

I have tried running a Priest with Teeth of Terra but I find him very squishy for a frontline fighter. I normally run mine with the Armour Indomitus to help keep him alive. You can use Artificer of War to run Selfless Healer, Artificer Armour and Teeth of Terra but that is 3 CPs on one fairly fragile character. I don't think there is a single optimum solution, you have to decide what your priority is.

[INKS]

can you explain the quake bolts to me?

Teeth of terra makes it so he can fight when needed but it doesn't make him a front line anything. Too fragile as you've said. 

[Karhedron]

Quake bolts on something with a good BS (like the Eliminator Sergeant) allows you to "tag" a unit so that your squads get +1 to-Hit against it in melee. This is a handy buff and means a lot of squads can operate without character support 

[INKS]

I see, so if you hit (or wound?) a unit with quake bolts you then get +1 hit against them in melee. that is pretty good.

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, INKS said:

I see, so if you hit (or wound?) a unit with quake bolts you then get +1 hit against them in melee. that is pretty good.

 

Yes, it only needs a hit to take effect and is very good. It can also be given to Squad leaders via the Angel Ascendant stratagem. Here is the exact wording.

 

Quote

When you give a model this Relic, select one bolt weapon that model is equipped with. When that model is chosen to shoot with, you can choose for that weapon to fire a quake bolt. If you do, you can only make one attack with that weapon, but if a hit is scored, the target unit is felled until the end of the turn in addition to any normal damage. Each time a melee attack is made against a unit that is felled, add 1 to that attacks hit roll.

 

[Xenith]

They're particularly good on BS2+ Eliminator sergeants with instigator bolt rifles - the real risk of quake bolts is having them miss on a BS3+ platform, so give them to a near-combat character, or on the Elim sergeant. I've usually run them on an Infiltrator serge, but with my luck it's been 50/50.