Multiple units intercepting one unit?

[Lord Krungharr]

Can multiple enemies intercept a single one of my units arriving from Reserves if they both have Augury Scanners?  I didn't see a reason why not but it 'felt' wrong.  Luckily Deliverers are Battle-Hardened 

[SkimaskMohawk]

They sure can. 

 

The only limit is that an individual unit cannot react more than once per phase. 

[Lord Krungharr]

Oh dear, that will require some tactical forethought for deepstrikers then.  Even if coming down in a Dreadclaw or Kharybdis then, two units of heavy weapons could probably 'open the can', and another could 'scoop out the beans'.

 

Guess it will only pay to Deepstrike some durable units, though I guess with them causing Pinning checks might trade off a bit here and there.  Haven't seen anyone using the Drop Pod Assault en masse at all yet.  That somehow needs to work, being so iconic.  Just not sure how well it can work.

 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

4 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Oh dear, that will require some tactical forethought for deepstrikers then.  Even if coming down in a Dreadclaw or Kharybdis then, two units of heavy weapons could probably 'open the can', and another could 'scoop out the beans'.

 

Guess it will only pay to Deepstrike some durable units, though I guess with them causing Pinning checks might trade off a bit here and there.  Haven't seen anyone using the Drop Pod Assault en masse at all yet.  That somehow needs to work, being so iconic.  Just not sure how well it can work.

 

 

 

Yea unfortunately the availability of augury scanners means that deepstrikers need to be both durable and able to resist and pinning tossed out by nemesis bolters. The pod stuff suffers particularly hard as they can't assault the turn they come in, in contrast to jump packs/teleports. The best strategy that I've seen for DPA is the turn 1 kharybdis unit charging, taking some pressure off the rest of your army. Still gets ruined by a master of signal though....

[Dont-Be-Haten]

The reaction clause states a player may  never use more than 3 reactions in any phase regardless of other modifiers. Pg. 159. If your opponent wishes to use 3 intercepts on a unit that's probably a win considering they all have to not be pinned. In most cases you're going to be dropping multiple deepstrikers. Drop Pod assault is very good. Deliverers are very strong, and you have a 2+/5+++ the turn the deepstrike with the Decap RoW.

[Gorgoff]

29 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

The reaction clause states a player may  never use more than 3 reactions in any phase regardless of other modifiers. Pg. 159. 

Augury Scanner ignore that  

[Dont-Be-Haten]

The Additional Reactions and Reaction Limits clause states the reacting player may never use more than three reactions in a single phase regardless of any modifications to a players reaction allotment or special rules granting bonus reactions.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm not even surprised by that take at this point lol. While it does say exactly what don't be haten wrote, its also directly contradicted by the rules on the page before it, as well as various pieces of wargear; it's clearly an older iteration of the rule that was never updated. 

 

Page 158 says:

 

Quote

Regardless of any special rules or other effects, no player may ever increase their base Reaction Allotment above three, nor may any player ever make more than three Reactions in a given Phase unless a special rule specifically allows for a number of Reactions above the normal limit of three.

 

The augury scanner (all versions across the Legions, Mechanicum, and Imperialism books) says:

 

Quote

• When any enemy unit is deployed to the battlefield from Reserves, a unit that includes at least one model with an augury scanner may make the Interceptor Advanced Reaction (see the Horus Heresy: Age of Darkness rulebook, page 309) without expending a point of the Reactive player’s Reaction Allotment. This does not allow the unit to make more than one Reaction per Phase, but does allow the controlling player to exceed the normal three Reactions limit in a given Phase.

 

 

The helical targeting array says:

 

Quote

• When the model makes a Shooting Attack as part of the Interceptor Reaction, the Reaction does not cost the controlling player a point from their Reaction Allotment. This does not allow the unit to make more than one Reaction per Phase, but does allow the controlling player to exceed the normal three Reactions limit in a given Phase.

 

The Omniscope says:

 

Quote

A unit that includes at least one model with an omni-scope ignores all the effects of Night Fighting, and when a unit that includes one or more models with this special rule makes the Interceptor Advanced Reaction, the reaction does not cost the controlling player a point from their Reaction Allotment. This does not allow the unit to make more than one Reaction per Phase, but does allow the controlling player to exceed the normal three Reactions limit in a given Phase.

 

The Logos says:

 

Quote

The Logos provides a 2+ Armour Save and 3+ Invulnerable Save, and allows Perturabo to ignore all the effects of Night Fighting, and when Perturabo or any unit he has joined makes the Interceptor Advanced Reaction, the Reaction does not cost the controlling player a point from their Reaction Allotment. This does not allow the unit to make more than one Reaction per Phase, but does allow the controlling player to exceed the normal three Reactions limit in a given turn.

 

The auspectre says:

 

Quote

Enemy models cannot be deployed using the Infiltrate special rule within 18" of a model with an auspectre. In addition, when any enemy unit is deployed to the battlefield from Reserves, a model with an auspectre may make the Interceptor Advanced Reaction (see page 309 of the Horus Heresy: Age of Darkness rulebook) without expending a point of the Reactive player’s Reaction Allotment. This does not allow the unit to make more than one Reaction per Phase, but does allow the controlling player to exceed the normal three Reaction limit in a given Phase. Instead of using the profile of a weapon the model has, a model with an auspectre may instead make a Leadership test. If the Leadership test is passed, the controlling player may instead make a Shooting Attack with any Defensive weapon available to any model with the Vehicle Unit Type (both friendly or enemy) within 12", that is in range and line of sight of the targeted model. If the Leadership test is failed, the model may not make an Interceptor Advanced Reaction.

 

You can most definitely be reacted to more than 3 times in a movement phase. I know my list has 4 auguries and a helical, on top of the 2 allotments in the movement phase. And that's only at 2500, with the heavy support capped at 1; it's not unrealistic to get reacted to 10 times in the movement phase at 3000 points.

 

Edit: a bit ninjad by @Gorgoff, but hopefully this should show in more detail what the intention is behind the conflicting rules.

Edited November 20, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Cactus]

Note also that the rules don't say that you can never make more than 3 reactions in one phase. They only limit your Reaction Allotment to a maximum of 3. Auspex scanners and similar sidestep this completely by not reducing your allotment when used.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

2 hours ago, Cactus said:

Note also that the rules don't say that you can never make more than 3 reactions in one phase. They only limit your Reaction Allotment to a maximum of 3. Auspex scanners and similar sidestep this completely by not reducing your allotment when used.

The rule literally says, a player may NEVER make more than three reactions in any phase REGARDLESS OF ANY  MODIFICATIONS TO A PLAYERS REACTION ALLOTMENT OR SPECIAL RULES GRANTING BONUS REACTIONS.

 

That in and of itself nullifies Augury Scanners. People can argue it, but the wording supercedes a piece of wargear. The only fix is a FAQ. RAW you can't under any circumstances react more than 3 times in any phase.

 

An Augury Scanner & Helix Targeting Array both modify your Reaction Allotment and while they have special rules that specifically state you can supercede the 3 reactions per phase, the limitations rule denies eitherof these war gear pieces from allowing you to by-pass reacting more than 3 times.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Xenith]

29 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

People can argue it, but the wording supercedes a piece of wargear.

 

Unfortunately not - specific always* overrides general - If main rules overrode wargear, jump packs wouldn't work.

 

*usually

Edited November 21, 2022 by Xenith

[Dont-Be-Haten]

51 minutes ago, Xenith said:

 

Unfortunately not - specific always* overrides general - If main rules overrode wargear, jump packs wouldn't work.

 

*usually

It is very confusing. Never and regardless are the two words that contradict everything else. I see no rules general or otherwise that are that specific to the main rulebook. While I agree with specificity it isn't clear, and needs an FAQ. Though some of the TOs I've talked to from Major events are working on their own FAQ for Heresy upcoming events I lean in favor of a hard 3 until official clarifications occur.

[Cactus]

Oops. Selective blindness on my part.

 

That's an interesting point about special rules overriding basic. When a rule says to use an unmodified statistic we don't allow special rules that modify a statistic to ignore that. Am I right? So Don't -Be-Haten's interpretation has some precedent.

 

Considering how much excess verbiage the rules already contain it would have been nice for Augury Scanners to say that this does / doesn't get by the limit of three.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Cactus
To avoid double posting.

[Gorgoff]

The Augury Scanner specifically overrides the 3 reactions max general rule.

Don't see a problem here and no need for an FAQ.

 

Having said that, I do see the need for GW to make an Errata which says this:

 

2 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

A player may NEVER make more than three reactions in any phase REGARDLESS OF ANY  MODIFICATIONS TO A PLAYERS REACTION ALLOTMENT OR SPECIAL RULES GRANTING BONUS REACTIONS.

 

 

Quote

An Augury Scanner [...] modify your Reaction Allotment 

That's not true though.

You don't get +1 to your allotment, you can make an additional reaction. That's a different thing. But anyway.

You are right that page 159 says something like you did, but special rules just override this. Which is maddening because they came out the same day.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Gorgoff

[SkimaskMohawk]

I know DBH has me blocked so someone tell him to read page 158 lol. 

 

Its not a conflict between general rule and wargear . It very much is one page says one thing, the next says the opposite, but all the games rules support the first thing.

 

It does need a faq for clarity, but it's one of the easier things to decipher. 

 

Him thinking you're permanently capped at 3 reactions explains a lot in the context of "people are bad if they can't outplay enemy reactions". Its a lot easier to deal with 3 than the 10 or more you can get in 3k; you can play los and range games when they only have 3 total choices, but you can't really do that against an entire army. 

[jaxom]

The only argument that I think indicates one cannot blast a single unit with multiple Intercepts is the triggering mechanism. The rules can be read in a linear format so that when a unit does something that can be reacted to a unit can react. After that point, any other units would be reacting to the reaction, not the action with the activation requirement. However, I don't have the book with me at the moment so I can't check the wording on Intercept compared to say Advance or Withdraw, whether it specifies that multiple units can tag the activation requirement simultaneously.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

5 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

The Augury Scanner specifically overrides the 3 reactions max general rule.

Don't see a problem here and no need for an FAQ.

 

Having said that, I do see the need for GW to make an Errata which says this:

 

 

That's not true though.

You don't get +1 to your allotment, you can make an additional reaction. That's a different thing. But anyway.

You are right that page 159 says something like you did, but special rules just override this. Which is maddening because they came out the same day.

Going by the special rules of the Augury Scanner I would argue that it does modify your Reaction usage. It is also an unclear rule as it has conflicting special rules within its own bullet points. 

 

Regardless I will continue to play it as a hard 3 and let whoever wants to play it the other way do so. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Gorgoff]

2 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Going by the special rules of the Augury Scanner I would argue that it does modify your Reaction usage.

...by alowing you to make more than three reactions. It specifically says so. 

2 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

It is also an unclear rule as it has conflicting special rules within its own bullet points. 

 

Which one?

2 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Regardless I will continue to play it as a hard 3 and let whoever wants to play it the other way do so. 

You are welcome to use houserules of course and change the rules to your liking. 

But page 158 also says that more than three per turn is possible which means even the core rules say so. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Gorgoff

[Dont-Be-Haten]

This should probably be broken into it's own thread.

 

"A given reaction may be used as many times as a player wishes...so long as that player has not exhausted their reaction allotment" is still superceded by the finality of never and regardless.

 

Those two exclusive words dictate that no further action beyond 3 may ever be made. This isn't one of those if this then this. The main rulebook has hard capped reactions exclusively. It is not a simple piece of wargear can break a rule that clearly says regardless of any special rules it is confusing and therefore warrants discussion. I believe the intention is hard cap 3. I also believe that it's just more poor rules writing. 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[SkimaskMohawk]

@Gorgoff

Edited November 22, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk
GW selling different rules

[Gorgoff]

3 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

This should probably be broken into it's own thread.

 

"A given reaction may be used as many times as a player wishes...so long as that player has not exhausted their reaction allotment" is still superceded by the finality of never and regardless.

 

 

P 158 rulebook.

Augury Scanner has such a special rule.

Done.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

That is not in my book.

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

That is not in my book.

What?

Haha GW strikes again. 

Like I said on page 158 rulebook, right side, second paragraph from top.

Weird.

Which version do you have? German or something?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

8 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

What?

Haha GW strikes again. 

Like I said on page 158 rulebook, right side, second paragraph from top.

Weird.

Which version do you have? German or something?

I have a U.S. English version. That last sentence definitely isn't in my book.

[Lost2Requiem]

Hi everyone. Just to confirm that I’ve checked my U.K. edition (out of the AoD box), and 3 others I’ve got access to, and that sentence is in all of them.