2,5k Salamanders CoF spitballing

[Misterduch]

a 2,5k list I threw together after a 15-game loss streak and being determined to atleast win a single game. Thoughts?

Edited November 18, 2022 by Misterduch

[arnesh88]

What are you usually losing against? Is it specific units or legions?

[Misterduch]

2 hours ago, arnesh88 said:

What are you usually losing against? Is it specific units or legions?

 

-Iron hands dreadnoughts spam, the -1 to strenght is just a pain to deal with, not to mention I can't readily get Instant death on their elite infantry if they take any.

-Death guard heavy weapon teams spam ( 4 units of 10 in 2000 points for example ) with a bunch of masters of signals and extra reaction in the shooting phase.

-Word bearers gal vorbak and their pinning plasma

-Thousand sons psyker spam. This one is mostly because all my local stores decided to rule, that as there is no rule saying you cannot stack psychic powers on a single unit, repeated castings of for example, the +3" move stack. This results in sekhmet racing across the table, while the sword occult guys are punching leviathan dreadnoughts to death with ease.

 

the last one is funnily enough the one I came the closest to beating by baiting my opponent ( I got tabled, he had 1 sekhmet and a half dead Praetor left )

 

The death guard one is the only one I gave up on dealing with because it just gets ridiculous.

[The Scorpion]

Have you tried the Deathstorm Drop pod against death guard?

They cost up to 90pts each and can fire up to four different targets with S6 Pinning. It's cheap enough to tank enemy reactions, but dangerous enough to force the enemy to consider wasting them.

The only downside is that Covenant of Fire does not allow Deep Strike, but shuffling some slots is worth considering.

[arnesh88]

Maximum bull:cuss:. You’re dealing with maximum bull:cuss:…..which sucks, because you can’t build a thematic army to reasonably match them. Are there any limits on what to include/not include in your army? Units, allies, etc?

[Misterduch]

3 hours ago, arnesh88 said:

Maximum bull:cuss:. You’re dealing with maximum bull:cuss:…..which sucks, because you can’t build a thematic army to reasonably match them. Are there any limits on what to include/not include in your army? Units, allies, etc?

 

yeah, my local meta is a bit mental I suppose.

 

This comes down to there being a couple of poeple who often play and win at major tournaments in all manner of wargames.

 

Last game I played, a newbie in 30k asked me bring a chill list, no dreadnoughts etc.

 

I was fine with that because I knew he only had plasma guns for anti tank.

 

But then he had about 30 or 40 nemesis bolters at 1.5k and dreadnoughts and a lascannon team that he borrowed from someone else to "get a feel for what he wanted"

 

As for what I can bring, pretty much anything non forgeworld is doable. I like to avoid FW, so for example the pyroclasts are MKVI with 3d bits for heads, shoulders and arms.

 

Regarding allies; I'd rather keep it all green. Tough I have to admit that I am getting tempted to do some allies for extra punch

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Misterduch

[SlickSamos]

Ignoring your opponent's silly lists, I like the way you presented your list with your thoughts listed and have tried not to change too much with the following suggestions.   I also see you have a thing for Lascannons - you have more of them than regular Bolters! XD

 

Using models you likely have:

I'd split the Lascannon teams up a bit e.g. 2x7 with Lascannons and take a third team of 7 with a cheaper weapon (missile launchers?)

 

Then for Recon team perhaps a 5/5 split between Nemesis and regular Bolters  for cheap additional wounds

 

If you have another Rhino, perhaps have 2x7 Pyroclasts with Rhinos than the 10+R / 5 split

 

I wouldn't switch the Tacticals for Despoilers if you want to keep them cheap - however if you want a 3xflamer 3xPW squad in a rhino they seem nice (but are like 70 points more than the bolter squad).  However combining the Tactical models with the Recons you have would give you 2 recon squads with the 5/5 split between Nemesis and regular Bolters.

 

Vulkan could also be really fun cannonball (I am also amused by the idea of him in a Rhino).

 

But as stated by others, the other lists are either cheesy or accidentally good thematic lists enabled by bad rule writing.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Slick Samos 

[Misterduch]

3 hours ago, The Scorpion said:

Have you tried the Deathstorm Drop pod against death guard?

They cost up to 90pts each and can fire up to four different targets with S6 Pinning. It's cheap enough to tank enemy reactions, but dangerous enough to force the enemy to consider wasting them.

The only downside is that Covenant of Fire does not allow Deep Strike, but shuffling some slots is worth considering.

 

 

I haven't tought about them but idk.

 

Atleast 1 will be intercepted, then when they shoot at lascannon teams one will return fire before the drop pods can fire.

 

10 lascannon shots will pretty much annihilate the drop pod no?

 

I found recon marines with nemesis better because shroud bombs give me that 6" safe zone from return fire.

[The Scorpion]

2 hours ago, Misterduch said:

 

yeah, my local meta is a bit mental I suppose.

 

This comes down to there being a couple of poeple who often play and win at major tournaments in all manner of wargames.

 

Last game I played, a newbie in 30k asked me bring a chill list, no dreadnoughts etc.

 

I was fine with that because I knew he only had plasma guns for anti tank.

 

But then he had about 30 or 40 nemesis bolters at 1.5k and dreadnoughts and a lascannon team that he borrowed from someone else to "get a feel for what he wanted"

 

As for what I can bring, pretty much anything non forgeworld is doable. I like to avoid FW, so for example the pyroclasts are MKVI with 3d bits for heads, shoulders and arms.

 

Regarding allies; I'd rather keep it all green. Tough I have to admit that I am getting tempted to do some allies for extra punch

 

 

 

 

 

 

Solar Auxilia in green scheme with Vanquisher cannons?

 

Vanquishers are great against Dreadnoughts.

[SkimaskMohawk]

From what I've seen of salamanders, their strengths are pretty much all bound up in the pyroclasts and the firedrakes. Dumping 10 pyros out of a rhino to brun down a target, and then choose to withdraw back in or return fire/overwatch people trying to melee them is where the damage is. Or spam av 14 with firedrakes. The main issue is that no salamander player I've seen reached the critical mass of pyros in rhinos because pyros were so bad in 1st that you could only really justify so many, even for more narrative players. And they cost a lot of money; one of the most disheartening answers is "your legion CAN be good, but you need to rebuy almost an entire army". This is extra not good news for you since you said you want to avoid forgeworld. 

 

From your list specifically, the stuff that sticks out is the amount you spend on the HQs. It looks like almost 500 points, and they just don't really do too much imo. The champion is required for the rite, but you can ditch the praetor, command, and vigilator for a delegatus and maybe a tely librarian? Maybe use the spare points to split the recons into 2x 5 mans and shuffle las into 3 units? Usually msu is harder to deal with than giant bricks, though reactions benefit bricks more.

 

You do have a lot of good units though; the amount of las should be able to kill an ironhand contemptor a turn, and 10 pyros can also do that off the shot+reaction. The more pyros you can jam in, the easier it gets, though it isnt fair that you basically need to build to hard counter to have a game.

 

The death guard one is rough, but does sound like a case of not enough line of sight blocking terrain. They can move to get around it a bit, but still. Regardless, they definitely chew through rhinos and pyros; that kind of demands flair shielded av14 to get in. Or just good luck with getting first turn and blitzing with a bunch of rhinos. Still very much sounds like open Los issues.

 

Against the word bearers, thunderhammers are what deal with gal vorbak. They fall off super hard if you can hold the line and the fire drakes will win a trade against them easy peasy. The plasma is annoying, but is worse against vehicles than normal and wounds your guys on 3s (and pyros would get an invul if they breach). The delegatus can help with the pinning too

 

The thousand sons thing is just dumb. Ya, raw that's how the interaction works. But it's obviously the result of them removing the psychic phase, and not the intent. Only real counter is to spam tely librarians and lock down the buffed units (though that works for almost every list you've mentioned). 

 

 

The best advice is basically to do the counts as various lists with more of the special units. People really shouldn't complain if you've lost all your games, especially if buddy the new player was doing similar things. 

 

 

[SlickSamos]

Re HQ: Please don't get rid of the Command Squad, they are the best line unit in the game and the most cost effective source of AS 2+.

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, SlickSamos said:

Re HQ: Please don't get rid of the Command Squad, they are the best line unit in the game and the most cost effective source of AS 2+.

 

That's true, but they struggle in this list for a few reasons. The first is that OP already has 4 scoring units at 2500, and scoring is...a bit over valued when playing with the core missions (maybe a reason to drop the tacs instead/as well). The second is that they don't really have impressive output; without thunderhammers and an invul, they're really just power armour bullies. The third is really close to that last point, and it's that the meta he's in really doesn't care about 10 guys with 2+ saves and simple power weapons; dreads, lascannons, buffed bricks all ignore the advantages they have. The last point is that they're only line while the banner is up, and snipers are a pretty common power-pick; snipe the banner, unit loses line and the aura, and they're just a 250 point unit of guys that can only kill troops.

 

 

[arnesh88]

SkimaskMowhawk pretty much hit the nail on the head. Book missions are not that good for Line units, Salamanders main strength is in their legion specific units, etc. I was going to suggest taking covenant of fire for pyroclasts as troops, and then taking legio custodes for their custodian guard troops. Firedrakes are slightly more defensive I think, but custodian guard are just good at almost everything and can move across the board faster, and are line.