Is vashtor the omnissiah?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The new demon revealed is said to be a demigod, created independently of any of the major chaos powers by the desire to build, create, and invent.

 

to me this sounds like he’s the omnissiah.

[Emperor Ming]

 

The Emperor is the Omnissiah

[Urauloth]

When UR-025 claimed to have met the true Omnissiah it could have been Vashtorr he meant, sure.

[Rik Lightstar]

"He's not the Omnissiah he's a very naughty boy" - Belisarius Cawl probably 

[Xenith]

The Martian Cult already believed in an Omnissiah before the pact with Terra, in which many saw the Emperor as the Omnissiah, something he went to lengths to prove, or at least make them believe (Mechanicum). Prior to this, it might have been the void dragon asleep under mars, however as with any cult, they probably all have different interpretations, with the more heretical believing that Vashtorr is the omnissiah, or one of his aspects maybe. Belief within the Imperium that this guy is the Omnissiah would guarantee a purging from all angles. 

[Rik Lightstar]

49 minutes ago, Xenith said:

The Martian Cult already believed in an Omnissiah before the pact with Terra, in which many saw the Emperor as the Omnissiah, something he went to lengths to prove, or at least make them believe (Mechanicum). Prior to this, it might have been the void dragon asleep under mars, however as with any cult, they probably all have different interpretations, with the more heretical believing that Vashtorr is the omnissiah, or one of his aspects maybe. Belief within the Imperium that this guy is the Omnissiah would guarantee a purging from all angles. 

 

I think the Emperor was instrumental in setting up the colonies and subsequent Foundries and Forges on Mars at the outset prior to the Age of Darkness. Intentionally leaving behind a legend/prophecy of "The Omissiah" knowing that it would give him an efficient way to take control when he returned.

 

The Emperor has always been about "The Long Game" setting things up hundreds and even thousands of years in advance so he can access those "resources" at a later date when required.

 

Rik

[Brother Tyler]

No, Vashtorr is not the Omnissiah.

 

Vashtorr (the entity) and the Omnissiah (the theoretical entity) share certain similarities, as has been observed, but also have significant differences. They might be viewed as corresponding with each other as a result of their similarities, but their differences make them complementary. In this, Vashtorr would be more akin to an evil twin of the Omnissiah (or vice versa - the Omnissiah might be viewed as a sanitization of Vashtorr).

 

Ultimately, the Omnissiah is more akin to an idealized personification of the principles that the Cult Mechanicus reveres. The actual application of who/what the Omnissiah is varies, with some seeing it as the Void Dragon, some the Emperor, etc. In this, Vashtorr might be the "corrupted" version that the Dark Mechanicum revere. Any one of these might be the real Omnissiah, or none might be. Whether or not a real Omnissiah actually exists is unknown.

 

A real-world example might be the principle of knowledge (or wisdom or memory, depending upon the conceptualization). The Norse personified knowledge as the god Mimir. The Greeks personified knowledge as the Titan Coeus, then as the Olympian Athena. Hindus personify knowledge as Brihaspati or Dakshinamurthy. In the Abrahamic religions, Uriel is the angel of knowledge (though other angels also fulfill a similar role). Other religions similarly personify knowledge in their own divine beings. Those with a less spiritual bent might view knowledge in terms of epistemology. Whether or not any of the divine personifications of knowledge exists and which of the many might be the "real" personification of knowledge is unknown and different adherents will argue for their personification and against the others.

 

In the science-fantasy world of Warhammer 40,000, belief can result in the immanence of real beings, especially in terms of Warp entities that are commonly referred to as "daemons." Vashtorr might be described as the immanence of beliefs in knowledge, plans, and the mechanical - a logical locus for the Dark Mechanicum. In the lore, all divine beings (i.e., the gods, goddesses, and their servants of Humanity; the Aeldari pantheon; etc.) can be viewed as sanitized versions of daemons (e.g., perhaps Ares was simply how the Greeks interpreted Khorne). In addition, the star-gods of the Necrontyr serve as non-Warp counterparts and fulfill much the same function as the daemons. In this, Vashtorr embodies the principles that are also embodied in the Omnissiah, similarly to how the star-god known as the Dragon can be viewed as a personification of the Omnissiah.

 

To the adherents of the Dark Mechanicum, Vashtorr is a logical representation of the concept they describe as the Omnissiah. That doesn't mean that Vashtorr is the "real" Omnissiah, however.

 

Just my opinion

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Brother Tyler said:

Whether or not a real Omnissiah actually exists is unknown.

 

There is some evidence supporting the existence of the Omnissiah as a Warp entity in Titandeath. At the end of the novel one of the Imperial Princeps dies and her soul enters the Warp where it is quickly surrounded by daemons. She is rescued by a being that appears in the form of a glowing Titan. It tells her while there is purpose, there is life. She accepts and embarks upon it.

 

This strongly implies the existence of some sort of benevolent manifestation of the Omnissiah in the Warp. Whether it exists as an aspect of the Emperor or as an entirely independent entity is unknown.

[Guest Triszin]

57 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

There is some evidence supporting the existence of the Omnissiah as a Warp entity in Titandeath. At the end of the novel one of the Imperial Princeps dies and her soul enters the Warp where it is quickly surrounded by daemons. She is rescued by a being that appears in the form of a glowing Titan. It tells her while there is purpose, there is life. She accepts and embarks upon it.

 

This strongly implies the existence of some sort of benevolent manifestation of the Omnissiah in the Warp. Whether it exists as an aspect of the Emperor or as an entirely independent entity is unknown.

With the new lore, the omnisiah could be a votann. As votann have a warp presence, often referred to as a mini astronomicon

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

13 hours ago, Brother Tyler said:

No, Vashtorr is not the Omnissiah.

 

Vashtorr (the entity) and the Omnissiah (the theoretical entity) share certain similarities, as has been observed, but also have significant differences. They might be viewed as corresponding with each other as a result of their similarities, but their differences make them complementary. In this, Vashtorr would be more akin to an evil twin of the Omnissiah (or vice versa - the Omnissiah might be viewed as a sanitization of Vashtorr).

 

Ultimately, the Omnissiah is more akin to an idealized personification of the principles that the Cult Mechanicus reveres. The actual application of who/what the Omnissiah is varies, with some seeing it as the Void Dragon, some the Emperor, etc. In this, Vashtorr might be the "corrupted" version that the Dark Mechanicum revere. Any one of these might be the real Omnissiah, or none might be. Whether or not a real Omnissiah actually exists is unknown.

 

A real-world example might be the principle of knowledge (or wisdom or memory, depending upon the conceptualization). The Norse personified knowledge as the god Mimir. The Greeks personified knowledges as Titan Coeus, then as the Olympian Athena. Hindus personify knowledge as Brihaspati or Dakshinamurthy. In the Abrahamic religions, Uriel is the angel of knowledge (though other angels also fulfill a similar role). Other religions similarly personify knowledge in their own divine beings. Those with a less spiritual bent might view knowledge in terms of epistemology. Whether or not any of the divine personifications of knowledge exists and which of the many might be the "real" personification of knowledge is unknown and different adherents will argue for their personification and against the others.

 

In the science-fantasy world of Warhammer 40,000, belief can result in the immanence of real beings, especially in terms of Warp entities that are commonly referred to as "daemons." Vashtorr might be described as the immanence of beliefs in knowledge, plans, and the mechanical - a logical locus for the Dark Mechanicum. In the lore, all divine beings (i.e., the gods, goddesses, and their servants of Humanity; the Aeldari pantheon; etc.) can be viewed as sanitized versions of daemons (e.g., perhaps Ares was simply how the Greeks interpreted Khorne). In addition, the star-gods of the Necrontyr serve as non-Warp counterparts and fulfill much the same function as the daemons. In this, Vashtorr embodies the principles that are also embodied in the Omnissiah, similarly to how the star-god known as the Dragon can be viewed as a personification of the Omnissiah.

 

To the adherents of the Dark Mechanicum, Vashtorr is a logical representation of the concept they describe as the Omnissiah. That doesn't mean that Vashtorr is the "real" Omnissiah, however.

 

Just my opinion

Just seems to me like all that the mechanicus particularly cawl are all about would be the ideas and emotions that went towards creating vashtorr.

 

[Xenith]

Though the Mechanicus try to obliterate emotion as much as possible, the Dark Mech would be a bit more open minded, so their reflection in the warp might have had a hand in Vashtorr. 

[Doctor Perils]

If I understand correctly, Vashtorr is a reflection of the spark of invention, the spirit of creation; whereas the Omnissiah is supposed to be the avatar of the God-Machine, which represents the sum of all-knowledge that already exists (hence why it is heretek-al to actually invent and innovate within the Cult Mechanicum, as this goes against the principles of the god-machine.

As such, no I don't think they are the same being. Though connected to each other, they are antithetical.

[Moonreaper666]

The real Omminisiah is the Void Dragon Shard on Mars

 

Vashtorr is an independent entity like Malice, Hashut, Blade of Antywr and Drach'nyen. Though they do help the Chaos Gods in their actions

[Urauloth]

Wait, Perils, do you think the Martian priesthood's strictures against innovation actually serve to limit Vashtorr's growth (whether they know it or not)? I always assumed it was something that span out of control from the idea that invention is what led to AI, but maybe there's more to "invention is dangerous" than we knew.

[MegaVolt87]

On 11/26/2022 at 8:48 AM, Moonreaper666 said:

The real Omminisiah is the Void Dragon Shard on Mars

 

Vashtorr is an independent entity like Malice, Hashut, Blade of Antywr and Drach'nyen. Though they do help the Chaos Gods in their actions

 

This makes the most sense. Plus, the Dark Mechanicum has done enough over time in real space to create the right conditions for Vashtor to exist. 

[Doctor Perils]

On 11/26/2022 at 4:52 PM, Urauloth said:

Wait, Perils, do you think the Martian priesthood's strictures against innovation actually serve to limit Vashtorr's growth (whether they know it or not)? I always assumed it was something that span out of control from the idea that invention is what led to AI, but maybe there's more to "invention is dangerous" than we knew.

I have absolutely no idea, we don't know enough about Vashtorr yet. Could make sense though - a lot of 40k institutions have a seed of sense before they actually spiral out of control, perhaps the Mechanicum orthodoxy is indeed rooted in something real that is half forgotten.

Conversely, does that mean that the T'au actually empower Vashtorr?

[INKS]

Is Vashtorr a daemon? 

[lansalt]

IIRC, the HH book Mechanicum by Graham McNeill pretty much says that the original Omnisiah was the Void Dragon shard trapped in Mars by the Emperor, that he used to manipulate martian culture into their machine religion.

[Moonreaper666]

On 11/29/2022 at 7:30 AM, Doctor Perils said:

I have absolutely no idea, we don't know enough about Vashtorr yet. Could make sense though - a lot of 40k institutions have a seed of sense before they actually spiral out of control, perhaps the Mechanicum orthodoxy is indeed rooted in something real that is half forgotten.

Conversely, does that mean that the T'au actually empower Vashtorr?

 

Vashtorr is a Chaos Undivided Daemon from the Forge of Souls. He's OLD enough that he experienced the War in Heaven. His existence is another nail-in-the-coffin in the stupid idea that Perty isn't a Daemon 

 

Not that many Undivided non-Prince Daemons. Madai and Drach'nyen are the other two. All three help the Chaos Gods while Madai directly serves them

[Slave to Darkness]

On 12/11/2022 at 10:15 PM, Moonreaper666 said:

 

He's OLD enough that he experienced the War in Heaven.

Source? 

[Zyobot]

Hmm...

 

Well, even if Vashtorr, the Void Dragon, and Big E are the "default" candidates, I'd imagine that over 10,000 years of Tech-Priests' veneration (as well as common Imperial citizens' belief in Machine Spirits, don't forget) would give rise to something somewhere in the Warp. In short, I'm willing to entertain that it might've started as superstitious nonsense or misinterpretation by the original adherents of the Cult Mechanicus... only for all the worship and millennia of collective belief to make it real eventually. Not sure how closely it'd resemble the "real" Omnissiah that @Brother Tyler is getting at (as opposed to just being Vashtorr or whatever), but nothing to dismiss outright, either.

 

Even then, I have to question why The Real Deal (TM) wouldn't have emerged in the Warp much, much earlier than that. If anything, I'd imagine the Dark Age of Technology would be the ideal time for a sort of "Machine God" (read: something far more powerful than Vashtorr) to have been born before or around the same time as Slaanesh, seeing as science was deified and technology was advancing at breakneck speeds for multiple millennia straight. No idea if there's a decent in-universe explanation for that, but if there is, I sure haven't heard of it.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Zyobot