The End and the Death: Volume I discussion thread

[Ubiquitous1984]

Discussion thread for the first instalment of the two-part finale of the Siege of Terra series.  The Garro novella will be released in January.

 

Release date estimate (Amazon) - 28/2/23

 

The walls have fallen, the gates are breached, and the defenders are slain. It is the end and the death. After seven brutal years of civil war, the Warmaster stands on the verge of victory. Horus Lupercal, once beloved son, has come to murder his father.

 

The Emperor, a shining beacon of hope to many, an unscrupulous tyrant to others, must die. The lives of uncountable numbers have been extinguished and even primarchs, once thought immortal, have been laid low. The Emperor's dream lies in tatters, but there remains a sliver of hope.

 

Now, at the final hour of the final day, the Emperor rises. With him come his Angel, his Praetorian, and his Captain, all determined to enact terrible vengeance. Yet the hope is slim, for the Warmaster sees all and knows all, and the ultimate victory of Chaos is at hand.

There is no way out.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Ubiquitous1984

[Krelious]

Prepare for 300 pages of Perpetuals doing weird stuff, flashbacks of the Emperor training Horus, dream/warp sequences and maybe Erebus doing weird stuff.

What are they going to end the first book with the Emperor teleporting onto the Vengeful Spirit?

 

I want something like this  Kung Fu Panda (2008) - The Origin of Tai Lung Scene (4/10) | Movieclips - YouTube

 

[Scribe]

Considering Echo's ended with the shields down, we better see the Emperor and crew heading up real early into the first book.

 

In my ideal world, the rest of the 'canon' is solved with the first book, ending with the Emperor killing Horus, and being found near death.

 

That way, I can just call the series complete. ;)

[Nagashsnee]

Someone needs to make a list of all the plot threads that currently are lined up for this book, top of my head its basilo flo, loken, keeler, perpetuals, any meaning to the erebus/arda thing.  Tho probably forgetting some/lots.

 

Can see book one being the lead up with the final war council, malcador going on the throne,  perpetuals getting into positions, custodians and flo doing something etc and it ending with the teleport up/relief fleet breaking into the system. 

 

 

I feel like Game of Thrones these last two books will be what define the entire HH series. They will either be a triumph and leave people foundly looking back for years or like GoT end in disaster spoiling the entire experience.   Still wish that if two book were needed they would just drop at the same time, i a tired of being tired of waiting at this point. 

[Moonreaper666]

Captain is probably Loken as he witnesses the entire duel from start to finish

 

Samus and Doombreed will appear here

[Ubiquitous1984]

4 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

Someone needs to make a list of all the plot threads that currently are lined up for this book, top of my head its basilo flo, loken, keeler, perpetuals, any meaning to the erebus/arda thing.  Tho probably forgetting some/lots.

 

Can see book one being the lead up with the final war council, malcador going on the throne,  perpetuals getting into positions, custodians and flo doing something etc and it ending with the teleport up/relief fleet breaking into the system. 

 

 

I feel like Game of Thrones these last two books will be what define the entire HH series. They will either be a triumph and leave people foundly looking back for years or like GoT end in disaster spoiling the entire experience.   Still wish that if two book were needed they would just drop at the same time, i a tired of being tired of waiting at this point. 

I think a list of unresolved plot threads would be very beneficial so we can have a meaningful discussion on where we expect book 8 to lead.  If we can get a comprehensive list together then I will update the original post to include them.  

 

I predict the Garro novella will deal with the shields coming on the VS.  Perhaps Garro and his chums will somehow bring them down?  Perhaps the DA will somehow be involved?  Now that they are down as per the end of book 7 it would be pointless for a mainline novel to deal with the 'how' it happened, but it could be a fun story for a novella.

 

 

[darkhorse0607]

6 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

Captain is probably Loken as he witnesses the entire duel from start to finish

 

Samus and Doombreed will appear here

 

Why wouldn't it be Valdor considering he's been referred to as that before, numerous times

[chevalierdulys]

The question being if we think Abnett is probably their best writer, who will conclude? ADB probably won't be because he was the 7th writer... So who can be as good as Abnett to close the biggest series GW created? 

Take your bets... 

[Ubiquitous1984]

1 hour ago, darkhorse0607 said:

 

Why wouldn't it be Valdor considering he's been referred to as that before, numerous times

It's 100% Valdor.  To think otherwise would betray a fundamental lack of understanding about the setting.

 

Checks who made the original comment

 

Yup!

 

3 minutes ago, chevalierdulys said:

The question being if we think Abnett is probably their best writer, who will conclude? ADB probably won't be because he was the 7th writer... So who can be as good as Abnett to close the biggest series GW created? 

Take your bets... 

 

Abnett has written the whole book, volumes 1 and 2.  He revealed back in 2021 that he had written a book so large that it had to be split into two parts.

 

[Tolmeus]

9 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

Someone needs to make a list of all the plot threads that currently are lined up for this book, top of my head its basilo flo

 

Since everybody knows how the story ends even if it is not in detail, Basilo Fo's story seems like an dead end. 

Of course I know that Abentt doesn't just let the plot run into nothing. However, we at least know that his 'weapon' will not be used.

 

9 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

loken

 

My best guess would be that he is the one 'guardsman/ custodian' who will make the difference in the last stand between the Emperor and Horus. 

Since Loken is one of my favourites I was very glad to see him getting some spotlight in 'Saturnine'. There he also mentions that he becomes the conduit of the Emperor. But during his appearance in 'Warhawk' this development was not continued. 

 

9 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

keeler

 

She will most likely become the first saint of the Imperial Creed. Nothing new about that. Will be interesting if she survives the SoT or in dying performs some incredible act.

 

9 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

perpetuals

 

There goal is to reach the Emperor. To do what exactly? 

 

9 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

any meaning to the erebus/arda thing.

 

Seemed to me Erebus wanted to do what I am doing, cutting some loose strings. 

[Ubiquitous1984]

It wouldn't surprise me to see some form of physical confrontation between the members of the motley crew surrounding the Pepetuals to cull some of them off early in book 8.  There have been tensions between JG and OP for some time now - perhaps these will boil over resulting in (presumably) JG getting eliminated.  

 

Where that storyline goes I have no idea.  We also have the two mysterious space marines in the group, alongside a potential chaos worshiper.  Such a messy little storyline!

[Moonreaper666]

Ollianius Pius is still the one that sacrifices himself to save the Emperor from certain death. Only this time his final death would be MORE PAINFUL

 

Ollianius Pius knows Enuncia and has the toughness to sustain its power more than a few seconds. That is how Olly weakens Horus enough for Neoth to finish him off

 

Basilio Fo creates a Genevirus that Olly injects Horus with temporarily severing his connection to the Gods

 

Valdor has to stay in the Palace to protect Malcador and the Throne from Daemons

 

Loken dies by Abaddon's hand so Dorn and Neoth can run. His Psyker powers are no match for the first 'gift' Chaos gives to Abaddon 

 

The Mark of Chaos Ascendant shows up in this novel. The more Abaddon gives in to Chaos the more powerful he becomes temporarily. This is how he kills Loken

[Ubiquitous1984]

It has now been confirmed on the Coming Soon page that the Garro novella will be released in January.  So not much time to purchase and read it before TEATD Vol 1 in February!

[Krelious]

50 minutes ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

It has now been confirmed on the Coming Soon page that the Garro novella will be released in January.  So not much time to purchase and read it before TEATD Vol 1 in February!

I think if you cant read a novella in say 5 days then theres something wrong with you or your life is busy as hell. It took me about 10 days to read EoE and I have a busy life. Generally I read books faster when I love them and quite honestly I would say ADB is so good it would be a tradgedy if people werent talking about him 100 years from now.

[Sothalor]

Some people just read at a more sedate pace or indeed just don't have the time.

[cheywood]

3 hours ago, Krelious said:

I think if you cant read a novella in say 5 days then theres something wrong with you or your life is busy as hell. It took me about 10 days to read EoE and I have a busy life. Generally I read books faster when I love them and quite honestly I would say ADB is so good it would be a tradgedy if people werent talking about him 100 years from now.

I read books more slowly when I love them, so I can savor the way the words enter my mind. Reading is an immensely idiosyncratic activity, there’s no one size fits all.

[Moonreaper666]

The rampaging World Eaters won't stop Legio Mortis and Traitor Artillery from bombarding Eternity Gate from afar. They can also use giant claw-like contraptions to pull the Gate open or rip out chunks

 

Vorx and Typhus still command most of the Death Guard and will attack the Gate again. Ahriman and his Rubrics can sneak in admist the chaos.

 

Where is Ignatius Gulgor?

[DarkChaplain]

Guess he picked up another name from the wiki.... and thinks the Rubric has already happened.

[Moonreaper666]

1 hour ago, DarkChaplain said:

Guess he picked up another name from the wiki.... and thinks the Rubric has already happened.

 

Ahriman alone can kill a dozen Custodes without breaking a sweat. The Loyalists will need a lot of Librarians to delay him. Same with Typhus.

 

Ignatius Gulgor is a Nurgle Daemon Prince and part of the Death Guard

 

The person on the Throne is defenseless so a single Daemon can destroy the throne and give Horus his victory

[Brother Tyler]

5 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

...Ahriman and his Rubrics can sneak in admist the chaos.

 

The Rubricae haven't been created yet. That doesn't happen until after the Horus Heresy.

 

24 minutes ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

Ahriman alone can kill a dozen Custodes without breaking a sweat. The Loyalists will need a lot of Librarians to delay him. Same with Typhus.

 

Ignatius Gulgor is a Nurgle Daemon Prince and part of the Death Guard

 

The person on the Throne is defenseless so a single Daemon can destroy the throne and give Horus his victory

 

While the forces of Chaos have many powerful psykers on their side, the forces of the Imperium have many counters, such as the Sisters of Silence. Obviously Ahriman and Typhon survive the Horus Heresy, but they will not succeed in any effort to foil the Sigilite or give Horus his victory (because it has been a known fact for 35 years that Horus fails).

 

You seem to be under the impression that the Horus Heresy series of books is going to end in a way that radically changes the setting. You are bound to be disappointed. The novels have certainly expanded the known lore and provided small changes here and there, but the key elements remain unchanged. The Warmaster's gambit will fail, though the strategic objective of Chaos to disrupt the Emperor's plans will succeed (indeed, they have already succeeded). Though billions will die, the forces of the Warmaster will flee and the Imperium of Mankind will be left to attempt to recover, though they are now on the path that leads to the setting as we currently know it. Wish listing for Games Workshop to simply throw out all of the lore development from the last three plus decades seems to be a waste of everyone's time; and it's certainly not on topic. If you want to discuss how you would like to see the setting rewritten, please start your own discussion in the Fan Fiction forum or create a project in the Special Projects forum.

[wecanhaveallthree]

Quote

You seem to be under the impression that the Horus Heresy series of books is going to end in a way that radically changes the setting.

 

I have no doubt that it will certainly recontextualise things. Abnett has consistently added elements to the Heresy story, and his Perpetuals will certainly play a large role in the final books. While we're unlikely to see the God-Horus sitting on the Silver Throne, I have absolutely no doubt at all there's going to some kind of shock swerve or twist. Abnett's been given the final two entries to entirely showcase his vision, and his vision has been to add things that change the meaning of events (and characters!). A good example is Imperium Secondus, which casts a reasonably large shadow over the Guilliman bits of the current setting (and is still very much in play, as of Godblight). Abnett's writing tends to have wide-ranging ramifications, and giving him two books to play with as a capstone certainly suggests quite strongly that he's being given space to write exactly those kind of wide-ranging ramifications.

 

For the book itself, I'm... not sure we're on the proper timescale. With the shields being down on the Spirit, what I would have expected from this book - getting everyone in position, the danger/sacrifice of bringing down those shields - would be rather awkward. But it doesn't seem like there's any other choice. There are so many plot threads to tie together, so many outliers even excepting the true 'loose threads' like, say, Taranis or Narek, it feels like it will take a whole book just to get them into a proper position for the 'final battle'. Not to keep banging on the drum, but my main critique of Echoes was that it failed to actually move any of those pieces - Fo, the Perpetuals, Keeler, Loken, etc - into a prime narrative position. Keeping the focus so close on those micro conflicts means that Abnett is left spending pages and pages (and pages) on legwork that really needed to have been done in other books by other authors.

 

I really wish we weren't in the position where a whole new book has spawned out of thin air that will likely spend the majority of its wordcount 'fixing' things. And while I was happy for Abnett to get the last book - and not have quite as much opportunity to break things - I'm a little less positive on him getting such a large space to work his, ah, magic in.

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

Not to keep banging on the drum, but my main critique of Echoes was that it failed to actually move any of those pieces - Fo, the Perpetuals, Keeler, Loken, etc - into a prime narrative position. Keeping the focus so close on those micro conflicts means that Abnett is left spending pages and pages (and pages) on legwork that really needed to have been done in other books by other authors.

 

This may have been deliberate because Abnett has plans for those plot threads and ADB was asked to leave them alone.

[DukeLeto69]

I say this as an Abnett fan whose books dominate my personal top twenty BL releases...

 

Abnett sometimes has an issue of rushed endings. It is as though he gets so excited during the writing process and expands on plots and sub plots and character asides, that he only belatedly realises he has a word count brief to hit. There are a few books of his that would have benefitted from another 10,000 words to achieve a fully satisfying ending.

 

Clearly this time BL have said, “fill your boots we can split into two books”.

 

So we may get a fully realised and satisfying ending to this 17 year journey we have been on?

 

I do wonder if we will get a coda type approach along the lines of the LOTR:ROTK film for the very end section. ie more than an epilogue summation of what came next/also happened “off camera”?

[wecanhaveallthree]

Quote

This may have been deliberate because Abnett has plans for those plot threads and ADB was asked to leave them alone.

 

'Nobody else gets to play with my toys' isn't much chop of an editorial direction, especially in a collaborative series where the Perpetual crew show up in other books and are working towards (I would hope) clearly-defined goals. Bluntly, that's workload that needs to be shared, and if there wasn't space in mainline novels, we could have had a wealth of novellas dealing with particular scenarios and secondary characters moving into place. It feels like a can that's been kicked too far down the road, and chickens coming home to roost. 

 

My issue with the Siege has always been bloat. Erda is a prime example: did we need another Perpetual, especially such a prominent one, parachuted into the narrative? Do we need all these characters flouncing about on all their individual sub-plots, still dangling as we move towards the sharp end? My praise of Echoes is that it's an incredibly tightly-focused book. It is, in short, a fantastic addition to the ethereal concept of what the Siege series should have been. The construction of the book is killer. It drives home its core concepts, it's sharply-edited, it is focused on giving the audience a brutal contrast and comparison of two Legions and their Primarchs at the very end of the war. In a perfect universe, that it ends as the shields go down, is genuinely a perfect place to end. We don't need to know how, or why, only that the final assault is about to happen, the last, desperate gambit for the last, final book of the series. In a perfect universe, every Siege book would have been like this, sharpening the narrative edge down to a singular point, giving us a whole book that could deal solely with the Vengeful Spirit.

 

Unfortunately, we live in this one, and the fact is that we have a sprawl of plotlines that require resolution (or continuation) before we get to the fun stuff. We are resigned - resigned, perhaps, is not the most positive word, but an appropriate one, I think - to an entire book of character shuffling. We must finish our narrative sprouts before we get our just desserts.

Edited November 23, 2022 by wecanhaveallthree
cleaning up

[System Sound]

13 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

Ariman and his Rubrics can sneak in admist the chaos.

My guy... Can you stop? You clearly haven't read any book what so ever... Or even a wiki at this point aperantly. I'm pretty sure there's a forum somewhere that you can post your nonsense to. Stop making up stuff as fact and posting it where it doesn't belong...