The End and the Death: Volume I discussion thread

[DukeLeto69]

1 hour ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

 

'Nobody else gets to play with my toys' isn't much chop of an editorial direction, especially in a collaborative series where the Perpetual crew show up in other books and are working towards (I would hope) clearly-defined goals. Bluntly, that's workload that needs to be shared, and if there wasn't space in mainline novels, we could have had a wealth of novellas dealing with particular scenarios and secondary characters moving into place. It feels like a can that's been kicked too far down the road, and chickens coming home to roost. 

 

My issue with the Siege has always been bloat. Erda is a prime example: did we need another Perpetual, especially such a prominent one, parachuted into the narrative? Do we need all these characters flouncing about on all their individual sub-plots, still dangling as we move towards the sharp end? My praise of Echoes is that it's an incredibly tightly-focused book. It is, in short, a fantastic addition to the ethereal concept of what the Siege series should have been. The construction of the book is killer. It drives home its core concepts, it's sharply-edited, it is focused on giving the audience a brutal contrast and comparison of two Legions and their Primarchs at the very end of the war. In a perfect universe, that it ends as the shields go down, is genuinely a perfect place to end. We don't need to know how, or why, only that the final assault is about to happen, the last, desperate gambit for the last, final book of the series. In a perfect universe, every Siege book would have been like this, sharpening the narrative edge down to a singular point, giving us a whole book that could deal solely with the Vengeful Spirit.

 

Unfortunately, we live in this one, and the fact is that we have a sprawl of plotlines that require resolution (or continuation) before we get to the fun stuff. We are resigned - resigned, perhaps, is not the most positive word, but an appropriate one, I think - to an entire book of character shuffling. We must finish our narrative sprouts before we get our just desserts.

 

I know this has been discussed to death and there are many ways to skin a grox, but IMHO and with benefit of hindsight, I think it is a real shame we didn’t have the whole HH series/setting having a “critical path” that tells the core story of how we got from Horus appointed as Warmaster to Horus trying to kill his Dad in the Vengeful Spirit. Ie focus on a smaller set of core characters.

 

Then all those other interesting “side stories” become mini series in their own right. So you want an Imperium Secundus mini series, we got you. Want to know what the Blood Angels were doing, we got you. Etc etc

[Karhedron]

To be fair, there are quite a few sub-arcs. Ravenguard, White Scars, Shattered Legions, Imperium Secundus all stand alone from the wider narrative to some extent. The problem is that so many characters gather at Terra for the Siege that almost everything becomes core in hindsight. You need Ruinstorm to understand Sanguinius's turmoil and you need the books leading up to that to understand Ruinstorm. Likewise, understanding which legions are present, absent and why is important. There are plenty of books in the HH series you can skip but there is a lot more that you can't.

[Noserenda]

Whilst the last book ends with the shields coming down, i strongly suspect this one wont start there, it might even be significantly in to the book as Abnett fills in what was happening off screen in the fairly tightly focused EoE, chiefly what happened to lead to that Major event! 

[Moonreaper666]

8 hours ago, Noserenda said:

Whilst the last book ends with the shields coming down, i strongly suspect this one wont start there, it might even be significantly in to the book as Abnett fills in what was happening off screen in the fairly tightly focused EoE, chiefly what happened to lead to that Major event! 

 

What are the chances Abaddon, under the influence of PTSD (maybe even trauma split-personality), turn off the VS' void shields and deny Horus his victory?

 

There was no way Guilliman was going to reach and kill Horus BEFORE Daemons and Traitors destroy the Throne

[Aramis K]

Amid all the plot lines to tie up, I'm also hoping for a clue about how Abnett's 40k Bequin series will go. Because that may be getting into things that kicked off after the siege. Perhaps a hint about The Yellow King.

[Karhedron]

That would be interesting. I can see Valdor breaking under the strain of his perceived failure after the Emperor's mauling by Horus. He quietly slinks away seeking.... what? Atonement? Death? A new purpose? It is hard to see how Valdor could wind up as the Yellow King unless he is playing some sort of long game to try and restore the Emperor.

[DukeLeto69]

3 hours ago, Aramis K said:

Amid all the plot lines to tie up, I'm also hoping for a clue about how Abnett's 40k Bequin series will go. Because that may be getting into things that kicked off after the siege. Perhaps a hint about The Yellow King.

 

Abnett has been slowly building his own meta-narrative within his 30k and 40k works. I cannot see him missing the opportunity (requirement?) to sprinkle more of the breadcrumbs needed to tie things together!

 

Personally I still have a nagging feeling that the identity of The Yellow King is a bait and switch slight of hand. There’s another twist coming, I can feel it!

Edited November 24, 2022 by DukeLeto69

[DarkChaplain]

We'll most assuredly see Valdor poking somebody really important with his spear, resulting in visions of something or other that might lead him down that road. But yes, it's Abnett, there'll be another twist by the end of Bequin.

[Noserenda]

I think i recall Valdor stays Captain general for a long while then goes on the whole long walk thing Custodes do after the Heresy, though not the exact source, he is certainly gone by the War of the Beast.

[Moonreaper666]

This Two-Part Finale should show some of the true, unmatchable powers of Chaos

 

Have Khârn, Kargos, Eidolon and many other Chaos Champions be revived all at once to assault the Gate one last time. And they break in and start attacking any Loyalists they could find. Have lots of Traitor Guardsmen 'revived' as Plague Zombies or Possessed as well

 

This would be one reason why so many HH veterans are still alive in the 41st Millenium. That and the sheer numbers of Traitor Astartes that were on Terra and in other places. I doubt Bodt was the only place mass-producing World Eaters in both the Heresy and Scouring

 

Ahriman, Erebus and Typhus should be using powerful spells quite easily to kill dozens of Custodes with ease thanks to the Warp rising in activity

 

Only a handful of Custodes and Silent Sisters should survive the Siege. One Psi-Titan still intact. Named Loyalist characters such as Katsuhiro and Arkhan Land dying left and right to BUY EVERY SECOND possible!!!

[DarkChaplain]

Yeah, Two Metaphysical Blades has him still doing paperwork on Terra before leaving. It's kind of implied that his departure is around the same time Russ leaves, iirc.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Lol moonreaper, you don't even understand that these characters have goals of their own, none of which are "kill every loyalist defender".

 

Like, typhus literally stood by while the scars wiped the death guard out of lions gate; he missed out on the chance to kill shiban, jaghatai and ilya with his magic and make loyalist readers feel bad. Instead, he handed out a pair of nurgling telephones because his magic actually kind of sucks.

 

Erebus didn't unleash his avatars of the gods on the primarchs to own the loyalists; he used them on erda after she dumps him. Oh and they still died. 

 

Ahriman loses to storm seers and runepriests over the course of the siege. And literally hasnt appeared since fury of Magnus. 

 

Plus, all these nerd chaos followers are about to run into all the fully activated assassins that haven't been used at all. Culexus army>daemons and trash magic. Vindicare army>any ranged troops. Vanus army> dark mech and vehicles. Eversor army>all melee troops. Venenum army>any death guard left. Calidus army kills all named officers and pretend to be them, just to give the traitors a bit of false hope before the scouring.

 

[Noserenda]

Not to mention the Adamus assassins who have mastered the deadliest weapon ever made by the hand of man or god... The KATANA :P 

[System Sound]

6 hours ago, Noserenda said:

Not to mention the Adamus assassins who have mastered the deadliest weapon ever made by the hand of man or god... The KATANA :P 

The weeb-ssassins are the ones that kill Horus!?

[Brother Tyler]

(Responding to statements in a post that most of you can't see for reasons that will be made clear...)

 

No, Moonreaper666, no one is deleting your posts. However, you are on moderator preview because of your problematic posting history and the friction you have created with your unconventional views (which isn't inherently problematic) and your confrontational presentation of them (which is problematic). Each of your posts that is not problematic is approved and visible, even if others might disagree with them. However, quite a few of your posts have been confrontational, off topic, or otherwise problematic; and those posts will not be approved. This not only keeps the discussion [relatively] calm and constructive, but it also protects you from feedback that would likely cause you to escalate your bellicosity.

 

Below is an excerpted quote from a post I made addressing the pattern of your participation in this and other topics recently.

 

On 11/22/2022 at 10:03 PM, Brother Tyler said:

... they [Chaos] will not succeed in any effort to ... give Horus his victory (because it has been a known fact for 35 years that Horus fails).

 

You seem to be under the impression that the Horus Heresy series of books is going to end in a way that radically changes the setting. You are bound to be disappointed. The novels have certainly expanded the known lore and provided small changes here and there, but the key elements remain unchanged. The Warmaster's gambit will fail, though the strategic objective of Chaos to disrupt the Emperor's plans will succeed (indeed, they have already succeeded). Though billions will die, the forces of the Warmaster will flee and the Imperium of Mankind will be left to attempt to recover, though they are now on the path that leads to the setting as we currently know it. Wish listing for Games Workshop to simply throw out all of the lore development from the last three plus decades seems to be a waste of everyone's time; and it's certainly not on topic. If you want to discuss how you would like to see the setting rewritten, please start your own discussion in the Fan Fiction forum or create a project in the Special Projects forum.

 

I highly recommend that you take some time to step back and look at the setting for what it is and not for what you want it to be. I mentioned the Fan Fiction and Special Projects forum previously, but another venue in which you can discuss your views of and desires for the setting is the blogs. You can create your own free blog here at the B&C. Therein, you can discuss your ideas without dragging other discussions off topic. You can even use your signature to provide a link to the blog so that those that are interested in your views (or debating them with you) have an easy way to read them. Similarly, you can post links to relative blog posts in replies to discussions when those posts are relevant to the discussion, further allowing others to read/discuss your views without needing to repeat yourself in discussions.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I mean, they’re definitely not having Chaos just multi-rez every single Traitor who’s on Terra. Part of Khârn’s whole schtick, one of the reasons he has the reputation he has, is that he’s the guy who died during the Siege and got brought back to life by Khorne. They’re not gonna just change that to “oh yeah, the Chaos Gods just instantly revive every single guy”, just so they can up the kill-count. 
Plus, even if they did all come back, most of the fighting, and so most of the deaths, happened on warfronts that would be days of walking away from the Palace proper. Unless you change it from “Chaos brings everyone back to life” to “Chaos brings everyone back to life and also instantly teleports them to right on top of the Palace”, it isn’t meaning anything. By that point, you may as well just change it to “Khorne himself manifests and just shanks the Emperor, killing him instantly.”
 

Also, Bodt absolutely isn’t producing more Astartes through the Scouring, given Autek Mor slammed a moon into it during the Heresy, in one of the few properly awesome actions of the Iron Hands during the Horus Heresy. Bodt is currently stellar debris, it isn’t producing anything but much weaker gravity than it used to. 

[Moonreaper666]

5 hours ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

I mean, they’re definitely not having Chaos just multi-rez every single Traitor who’s on Terra. Part of Khârn’s whole schtick, one of the reasons he has the reputation he has, is that he’s the guy who died during the Siege and got brought back to life by Khorne. They’re not gonna just change that to “oh yeah, the Chaos Gods just instantly revive every single guy”, just so they can up the kill-count. 
Plus, even if they did all come back, most of the fighting, and so most of the deaths, happened on warfronts that would be days of walking away from the Palace proper. Unless you change it from “Chaos brings everyone back to life” to “Chaos brings everyone back to life and also instantly teleports them to right on top of the Palace”, it isn’t meaning anything. By that point, you may as well just change it to “Khorne himself manifests and just shanks the Emperor, killing him instantly.”
 

Also, Bodt absolutely isn’t producing more Astartes through the Scouring, given Autek Mor slammed a moon into it during the Heresy, in one of the few properly awesome actions of the Iron Hands during the Horus Heresy. Bodt is currently stellar debris, it isn’t producing anything but much weaker gravity than it used to. 

You didn't read my posts clearly then

 

I said the Traitor Legions have other planets were they make more Marines just like Bodt

 

I mentioned Bodt because the World Eaters produce tens of thousands of World Eaters there during the Heresy!

[Lord_Caerolion]

While you are correct, it’s also pretty much what the Shattered Legions have been doing since the Heresy started, is travelling around the galaxy and destroying the supply lines of the Traitors. Bodt js just called out specifically as it’s one of the largest Traitor supply centres, and the Loyalists still blew it to pieces. The Dark Angels and White Scars joined in on this too, with the Dark Angels even taking on the homeworlds of several Traitor Legions. The Loyalists also had similar worlds churning out new recruits, though, it isn’t like 40k where it’s only the Legion homeworlds doing so (well, for most Legions). 

[Moonreaper666]

On 11/27/2022 at 1:16 PM, Lord_Caerolion said:

While you are correct, it’s also pretty much what the Shattered Legions have been doing since the Heresy started, is travelling around the galaxy and destroying the supply lines of the Traitors. Bodt js just called out specifically as it’s one of the largest Traitor supply centres, and the Loyalists still blew it to pieces. The Dark Angels and White Scars joined in on this too, with the Dark Angels even taking on the homeworlds of several Traitor Legions. The Loyalists also had similar worlds churning out new recruits, though, it isn’t like 40k where it’s only the Legion homeworlds doing so (well, for most Legions). 

 

And yet by the end of the Scouring the Salamanders have less Marines than the Thousand Sons. Even with Primaris the TS still outnumber the Sons of Vulkan

 

Traitors still have much more Marines by the time of the Second Founding

 

The Dark Angels lost tens of thousands fighting Madai's Daemonic Horde though. The White Scars suffered more deaths than the portion of the Death Guard guarding Lion Gate Spaceport

[Lord_Caerolion]

Firstly, the Salamanders were always an infamously small Legion, who got almost totally destroyed at Istvaan and didn’t use enhanced recruitment methods even in the aftermath, so of course they’re gonna be smaller than literally anyone else. 
The Salamanders were around 90,000 strong before Istvaan, went there with 83,000, and took an estimated 98% casualties. All up, they had about 10,000  Astartes left. I’d honestly be surprised if even if they got left untouched after that, they weren’t still the smallest Legion. 
 

Secondly, I’m going to need to see some sources on your numbers there, beyond your usual “this is what fits my headcanon of unstoppable Chaos forces, so I’ll just say stuff to back it up while ignoring contradicting actual evidence”. 
 

The point still remains, the Loyalists were largely able to also massively increase their induction rates during the Heresy, to a problematic rate in the case of the Raven Guard. 
The World Eaters may have had some of the largest numbers of new recruits created, but along with the Iron Warriors they’ve also been amongst the heaviest losses of the Traitor forces, suffering heavy casualties throughout the entire Siege, not to mention their actions through the Heresy itself. 
I cannot see them having been able to drastically increase their numbers. With how things have progressed for them, they’re certainly reduced in number. 
 

The Siege leaves the World Eaters broken, remember, just as it does ALL the Traitor Legions. It only takes Khârn’s actions on Skalathrax after this to shatter the Legion completely. That’s not the actions of a Legion that left Terra in a functioning state. 

[System Sound]

12 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

And yet by the end of the Scouring the Salamanders have less Marines than the Thousand Sons. Even with Primaris the TS still outnumber the Sons of Vulkan

-Salamanders were a notoriously suicidal legion. Before Vulkan showed up, they had barely a few hundred marines left. But that goes for a few legions aperantly.

So Salamanders being low on numbers is nothing new at all.

 

-Thousand Sons outnumber quite a few gene lines at this point. But that's questionable. Since we still don't have a concrete answer if they can make more Rubrics or do they just keep recycling old ones, witch would make no sense. Since 80-90% of the legion was wiped out on Prospero. And I'm not sure that the dead can be made into Rubrics. But maybe I'm missing something. Because according to the codex and the amounts of implied there, TS are boasting very large numbers, almost, if not above Legion strength.

 

12 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

Traitors still have much more Marines by the time of the Second Founding

-It's almost like the Drop Site Massacre was meant for that!? 

-Sons of Horus and World Eaters suffered the heavies losses really. The rest either dipped out or were busy making the locals into space crack.

12 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

The Dark Angels lost tens of thousands fighting Madai's Daemonic Horde though. The White Scars suffered more deaths than the portion of the Death Guard guarding Lion Gate Spaceport

What are you snorting and where can I get some?

Even when fighting the Night Lord's or the vengeance crusade they didn't loose that many troops.

 

You were warned 2 times, that I'm aware of, to stop making :cuss: up. But just like books you clearly don't bother reading anything that doesn't support your crack theories?

[Scribe]

13 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

And yet by the end of the Scouring the Salamanders have less Marines than the Thousand Sons. Even with Primaris the TS still outnumber the Sons of Vulkan

 

Traitors still have much more Marines by the time of the Second Founding

 

The Dark Angels lost tens of thousands fighting Madai's Daemonic Horde though. The White Scars suffered more deaths than the portion of the Death Guard guarding Lion Gate Spaceport

 

Objection your honour, relevance?

[System Sound]

7 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Objection your honour, relevance?

Hearsay!

[cheywood]

13 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

And yet by the end of the Scouring the Salamanders have less Marines than the Thousand Sons. Even with Primaris the TS still outnumber the Sons of Vulkan

 

Traitors still have much more Marines by the time of the Second Founding

 

The Dark Angels lost tens of thousands fighting Madai's Daemonic Horde though. The White Scars suffered more deaths than the portion of the Death Guard guarding Lion Gate Spaceport

Moonreaper, how do you know exact death ratios and numbers when the authors don’t give them? Were you at the siege? I don’t mean to burst your bubble, but the Horus Heresy is a fictional event. 

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

"Loken, Loken... " ~ Abaddon

 

Its been a long time since I first claimed Garvi was a Survivor of Isstvan III.  Then that he was a Psyker and one of the Grey Knight Grand-masters.  Also that he would live into 40k.  When he turned down Malacdor's offer to join the others on Titan, I was conflicted.   Sad that he would not become a Founding member but excited to see what else could possibly be as cool to the authors.  When he picked up Rubio's force sword i felt vindicated but it still took a while for him to use the Powah.  These next two books will hopefully not slow walk this thread.  Dose Loken get any guidance?  Bodvar Bjark perhaps?  There is also a troubling issue for me with another of his swords, Mourn-it-all.  I don't think it is just his brothers Cthoninan blue-steel power sword.  I think it is a Chaos forged Deamon-blade.  Loken is using the sword "when it feels right".  Not good.   If he is there at the end, with Horus and the Emperor, the sword might be a point of contention.  Horus re-forged it for Aximand.  Maybe Horus gave it to Aximand, knowing he would loose it to Loken... some kind of warp vision.