The End and the Death: Volume I discussion thread

[DarkChaplain]

Head's up, they just announced that Dan will be talking about the book on the BL Preview twitch stream in a bit.

 

Update: Release at BL Celebration. He's been writing it for the past two years.

 

"A cast of thousands", basically all "principal characters", "not just the last part of the Siege of Terra but a sequel to everything that's come before", he's been trying to "reflect everything".

 

Volume 1: Opening of the final clash, big famous beats, Horus got the Throneworld by the throat, very little chance of survival. Emperor finally takes a stand and meets Horus head-on. Momentous, desperation of the hour. Horus "luring the Emperor out by lowering the shields, to say come and get me", lots of detail on how they get to that, how they prep to go and decide who stays behind.

 

"Biggest characters in the entire canon" but also the "small" characters.

 

Can't talk about much because of spoilers, wants people to go in mostly blind and end up "delighted, surprised and involved". He's "dying to talk about" a ton of things but can't really yet. He would like to do an annotated edition of the book, like they experimented with Eisenhorn.

 

Big issue was the story's big fame, struggle between living up to it while still being surprising. PoV moving around a lot, trying to encapsulate everything. Bigger scope than "any BL book ever".

 

It is ALL WRITTEN, but he does NOT explicitly say it'll be a two-parter this time either. The question even asks about it becoming "more than one volume".

"Story is so big that it's happening in [laughs] several parts. And I would reassure readers and say "it's all written". It's not a case of "we're putting off the inevitable because I'm still trying to produce it. It's all there. It's all being polished and refined."

 

It does not seem unlikely to me that we'll actually get a third part at this rate. Especially since this is the cover for Vol.2. Maybe they're skipping the obligatory Emperor vs Horus artwork because of Collected Visions having been there, done that multiple times, but still... Either way, we can tell from this that Sanguinius vs Horus is unlikely to happen in Part 1.

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by DarkChaplain

[Fire Golem]

I’m really not going to be happy if it turns out to be 3 books. 

[DarkChaplain]

I wouldn't even put it past BL/GW to put the aftermath into a short novel / novella, like a LotR-style appendix in a way.

[System Sound]

I almost want to see them do Vol 3. Just to see the meltdown of some people.

 

[Nagashsnee]

Every time he says keep it suprising a little voice inside me screams in fear.

 

3 parts would be hilarious cruel to LE collectors.

[Fire Golem]

7 minutes ago, System Sound said:

I almost want to see them do Vol 3. Just to see the meltdown of some people.

 

Cheers. 

[Matcap86]

30 minutes ago, Nagashsnee said:

Every time he says keep it suprising a little voice inside me screams in fear.

 

3 parts would be hilarious cruel to LE collectors.

 yeah I would not be happy with that. I've managed to get everything so far and was like "Okay just one more and maybe a novella". Nope, at least 2, maybe 3 books and who knows how many novellas .

 

Also makes me wonder: they made such a big bruhahaha about having so many author meetings and stuff, but then everyone is surprised at the end that there are a ton of strands not finishing up and Dan needs to step up and finish it in not one but three books to tie it all back together? 

[DukeLeto69]

In some ways I get people being annoyed the last “book” was split into two volumes and that it could be three volumes BUT...

 

If they are really great books, well why wouldn’t you want just a bit more? You know they could be cracking books!

[Fire Golem]

13 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

In some ways I get people being annoyed the last “book” was split into two volumes and that it could be three volumes BUT...

 

If they are really great books, well why wouldn’t you want just a bit more? You know they could be cracking books!

My frustration is entirely limited edition related and the fact that all their planning they kept going on about clearly wasn’t all they hyped it up to be. I’m sure the books will be good. 

[Scribe]

5 hours ago, System Sound said:

I almost want to see them do Vol 3. Just to see the meltdown of some people.

 

 

On the one hand, it will be something, on the other hand, I'll be one of those people...

 

1 hour ago, DukeLeto69 said:

In some ways I get people being annoyed the last “book” was split into two volumes and that it could be three volumes BUT...

 

If they are really great books, well why wouldn’t you want just a bit more? You know they could be cracking books!

 

No, I really DONT want more. The more books they write, the higher the chances they screw it up. If Abnett literally cannot finish his ONE book (THE SHIELDS ARE ALREADY DOWN) in TWO books, and needs a THIRD book, that is grotesque amounts of filler, in a series (HH) they already bloated out like a corpse in a bog in a SPECIAL SERIES (SoT) they specifically said would be 'focused' and 'planned collaboration'.

 

Its just sickening honestly.

 

Oh and the 'we want people to feel surprise'? No. Just hit the beats Abnett and finish it properly. Other authors can do it to wide and near universal acclaim. Just hit the beats and finish it.

[Ubiquitous1984]

1 hour ago, DukeLeto69 said:

In some ways I get people being annoyed the last “book” was split into two volumes and that it could be three volumes BUT...

 

If they are really great books, well why wouldn’t you want just a bit more? You know they could be cracking books!

Here here.  Dan is my favourite BL authors.  The HH is coming to an end.  It’s been a big part of my life.  If I can get three of Dan’s best work, detailing the best characters and the best tale in the entire canon, then I’m all for it!  I’m also on the LE train but that is a secondary consideration compared to enjoying reading the books.  

 

A 1500 page finale?  Feed it to me!  The longer the better so long as the quality is there, and with Dan, I have faith it will be.  

 

 

[Nagashsnee]

Why stop at 3 then? Why not 4 we can add in a book about Dorn getting lost on the spirit. Heck why not 5? What did malcador experience on the throne? Personally i want 1 whole book about the BA going black rage in their thousands so 6. 7 can be a flashback between 1 and 2 that focusses on Mars as they kinda forgot about Kelbor Hal while 9 will focus on Alpharius/Omegon and what HE has been doing. 10-12 will cover the relief fleet breaking into sol while 13 funilly enought will focus on the Ultramarines flashbacking to when Roboute sent Sanguinius that message way back in book 7 but was actual written in enuncia allowing the perpetuals to turn back time and smack the living out of BL editorial for deciding to set a fixed number of books for the siege when they clearly were once again winging it.

 

Book 14 has Katsuhiro wake up having had a nightmare of the events between 1-13   meaning book 15+ is THE REAL SIEGE. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Nagashsnee

[Taliesin]

I think the worry may be its going very slow though. I could sort of get why it might be 2 books, but 3? Not even Horus vs Sanguinius in the first 500 page book?

Thats clearly going to be a slow set up book in book 1. It might still have very interesting nuggets of info and characterization I am sure, but that will be quite slow paced in terms of plot progression.

 

6 hours ago, fire golem said:

I’m really not going to be happy if it turns out to be 3 books. 

 

It seems 95% certain that its going to be 3 books. The other 5% is that there is also chance it might be 4 books.

 

Its obviously not going to be 2 books because the cover for book 2 was revealed and is Horus vs Sanguinius, and Abnett mentioned " it will be several"  books.

So not 2.

 

Somewhat amusing though that when it first announced Abnett was closing the series, many feared a rushed ending. Turns out we are getting the opposite.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Taliesin

[lightinfa]

17 hours ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

Here here.  Dan is my favourite BL authors.  The HH is coming to an end.  It’s been a big part of my life.  If I can get three of Dan’s best work, detailing the best characters and the best tale in the entire canon, then I’m all for it!  I’m also on the LE train but that is a secondary consideration compared to enjoying reading the books.  

 

A 1500 page finale?  Feed it to me!  The longer the better so long as the quality is there, and with Dan, I have faith it will be.  

 

 

This is where I'm at as well - I feel for all you LE collectors but I've been dreaming about this finale for years and I am thrilled that we're going to get to explore every nook and cranny of it. But I'm a sucker for all the Abnettian self-indulgence this will entail; bring on the perpetuals!!

Edited December 5, 2022 by lightinfa

[System Sound]

The biggest lie of the Siege series: it was planned unlike the Heresy...

Either their planning sucks or some one was really bad at saying no.

 

3 hours ago, lightinfa said:

. But I'm a sucker for all the Abnettian self-indulgence this will entail; bring on the perpetuals!!

I agree. I want to see what probably a 1000 pages of madness will look like. A decade long series needs to end in a bombastic way, right? I just hope that Annett doesnt tone it down too much, knowing his endings.

[DukeLeto69]

The tone in some of these posts is “I’m tired just wrap this up already”

 

Theory time here (probably wrong) = most people who want it wrapping up see the HH as a story while most who are happy(ish) that the finale may end up being a few books see the HH more as a setting?

 

Theory 2 = those who are not the biggest Abnett fans are the ones most unhappy about a multi volume conclusion? Wonder what the reaction would be if ADB was writing a multi-volume conclusion?

 

i totally get the frustration from the LE collectors. Your wallets must be crying alongside your stress levels for getting hold of one (it should have been subscription based so you were guaranteed to complete your collection).

 

I suspect one major factor for the multi-volume conclusion is that earlier volumes simply haven’t covered sufficient ground in terms of all the sub plots and characters leaving a huge mop up job to weave together.

 

FOR ME that is why the HH should be a setting with multiple series and story lines running concurrently with a core/spine series following Horus and Big E from Ullanor to Terra. But it wasn’t so... let’s see what we get!

[Carach]

18 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

3 parts would be hilarious cruel to LE collectors.

 

oh no, the very tiny minority whales will be vocal in their anger...again. 

 

Let's not beat around the bush; the whales are the folks buying LEs. They are hardcore fans and it is highly unlikely they will vote with their wallets, forever lost to BL as customers, just because an extra book comes out.

 

Some of these siege novels have been extremely bloated, almost exhaustively descriptive of 'epic' scenes and such rather than actual storytellings. If the last stuff needs an extra book in order to make a better story; so be it.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Carach

[Fire Golem]

32 minutes ago, Carach said:

 

oh no, the very tiny minority whales will be vocal in their anger...again. 

 

Let's not beat around the bush; the whales are the folks buying LEs. They are hardcore fans and it is highly unlikely they will vote with their wallets, forever lost to BL as customers, just because an extra book comes out.

 

Some of these siege novels have been extremely bloated, almost exhaustively descriptive of 'epic' scenes and such rather than actual storytellings. If the last stuff needs an extra book in order to make a better story; so be it.

 

 

 

 

 

So, you think the books have been bloated and lacking in actual storytelling, and you think the answer is to write more books of that rather than cut down the bloat in one book?

 

It’s already got an extra book. The point of contention now is how many extra books does it really need and how many are we going to get? 

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, DukeLeto69 said:

I suspect one major factor for the multi-volume conclusion is that earlier volumes simply haven’t covered sufficient ground in terms of all the sub plots and characters leaving a huge mop up job to weave together.

 

I agree. Books 2 and 3 did very little to advance any of the assorted sub-plots. Not that they were badly written but you could have squeezed the plots of those two books together without losing much in terms of story.

[lansalt]

If the Vengeful Spirit raid happens in part 2, I wonder what's supposed to happen in part 1.  I guess it must be the same events of Echoes of Eternity but seen from the PoVs not covered in that book?

 

 

[DukeLeto69]

The Horus Heresy series

 

The Horus Heresy series finale as a mini-series called The Siege of Terra series

 

The Siege of Terra mini-series with the climax as a mini-mini-series called The Dad and Son Slapdown series

[Lord_Caerolion]

I already think that a two-part finale, involving both the attack on the Vengeful Spirit, and the immediate aftermath, is already sounding a bit stretched. To expand it out to 3? I can kinda see it working. 4? Nope, not unless you’ve got one full novel of Perpetuals, one full of Vengeful Spirit showdown, one of assorted other plot-threads, and one of aftermath, and I just can’t see each of these requiring a novel of their own. 
Could it be done? Sure, but you’ll be padding each with more and more filler just to arbitrarily require more books. 
 

You want more books to have the Heresy as a setting? Awesome, and I do like this idea, but extending the finale of the Siege is not the way to go about this. Tell more stories during the Heresy, don’t keep adding “oh wait, we forgot about this character from book X, better have them pop in to resolve their plot arc, that’ll give me another chapter or two”. 

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, lansalt said:

If the Vengeful Spirit raid happens in part 2, I wonder what's supposed to happen in part 1.  I guess it must be the same events of Echoes of Eternity but seen from the PoVs not covered in that book?

 

I think I read somewhere that this is exactly the intention. Echoes of Eternity was quite tightly focussed which means there is plenty of scope to cover the wider theatre over the same timeframe.

[DukeLeto69]

25 minutes ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

I already think that a two-part finale, involving both the attack on the Vengeful Spirit, and the immediate aftermath, is already sounding a bit stretched. To expand it out to 3? I can kinda see it working. 4? Nope, not unless you’ve got one full novel of Perpetuals, one full of Vengeful Spirit showdown, one of assorted other plot-threads, and one of aftermath, and I just can’t see each of these requiring a novel of their own. 
Could it be done? Sure, but you’ll be padding each with more and more filler just to arbitrarily require more books. 
 

You want more books to have the Heresy as a setting? Awesome, and I do like this idea, but extending the finale of the Siege is not the way to go about this. Tell more stories during the Heresy, don’t keep adding “oh wait, we forgot about this character from book X, better have them pop in to resolve their plot arc, that’ll give me another chapter or two”. 

Not sure if this was aimed at my post but that was very much tongue in cheek (ie Mini-mini series).

 

Like it or not the SoT series is defo 9 novels but may end up as 10 novels (I very much doubt the Abnett authored finale will be more than a trilogy). It is what it is.

 

There are some folks on here who do not like Abnett’s take on 30k. That is their prerogative. However, I suspect (could be wrong) that had ADB been writing the last book and it was announced this was being split into 2 or 3 volumes, those same folks would be rejoicing!

 

The irony is that ADB wanted to write a focused novel and not address many of the subplots so has in fact added to the challenge faced by the closing volumes.

 

Of course you COULD leave unresolved plot lines in the main novels. You could address this in novellas and/or anthologies. But then people would moan about needing to buy X more books!

Edited December 5, 2022 by DukeLeto69

[lansalt]

For better or worse Abnett has defined both 30k and 40k fiction and worldbuilding about the Imperium with his stories since 3rd edition. He's the guy writing the big metaplot between both eras.