The End and the Death: Volume I discussion thread

[Taliesin]

2 hours ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

I already think that a two-part finale, involving both the attack on the Vengeful Spirit, and the immediate aftermath, is already sounding a bit stretched. To expand it out to 3? I can kinda see it working. 4? Nope, not unless you’ve got one full novel of Perpetuals, one full of Vengeful Spirit showdown, one of assorted other plot-threads, and one of aftermath, and I just can’t see each of these requiring a novel of their own. 
Could it be done? Sure, but you’ll be padding each with more and more filler just to arbitrarily require more books. 
 

You want more books to have the Heresy as a setting? Awesome, and I do like this idea, but extending the finale of the Siege is not the way to go about this. Tell more stories during the Heresy, don’t keep adding “oh wait, we forgot about this character from book X, better have them pop in to resolve their plot arc, that’ll give me another chapter or two”. 

 

I do think 2 books would have been fine. They are stretching it into 3, but I agree 4 is very unlikely.

I do worry that book 1 might not be so interesting though, in the sense that it seems like it will all be buildup and might miss having any big setpiece moments. Lets hope I am wrong on that. I'm pretty surprised that even Horus vs Sanguinius is not in book 1.

[lightinfa]

8 minutes ago, Taliesin said:

 

I do think 2 books would have been fine. They are stretching it into 3, but I agree 4 is very unlikely.

I do worry that book 1 might not be so interesting though, in the sense that it seems like it will all be buildup and might miss having any big setpiece moments. Lets hope I am wrong on that. I'm pretty surprised that even Horus vs Sanguinius is not in book 1.

 

Yeah I am worried about this too - it sounds like Abnett wrote this as one book and because it got so long it's been split up. So the thirds it has been split into may not have been written to stand alone by themselves originally.

[DarkChaplain]

6 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Wonder what the reaction would be if ADB was writing a multi-volume conclusion?

 

I for one would be rather annoyed by that. I'm still struggling to finish Echoes of Eternity.

It's just not doing it for me. Yes, it's bleak. Yes, it's all going to hell. Yes, everybody is losing. But it's just kind of a slog as a result. I'm feeling very little, if any, excitement over it.

 

And the long flashback sections don't help it either. At this point I don't care to see the GC pitfights, the in-your-face khorne references in the loyalist World Eaters, the savage Blood Angels etc. Yes, this is stuff that the Heresy should've had long ago - but not now. Now is not the time to do basic Legion development anymore. This is the climax, not The Primarchs.

 

The way the novel is isolating itself from the other events and characters is making me stop caring far too often, resulting in me putting it aside to read something else instead; heck, I read Thrawn: Treason, Mistborn 4-6, some light novels and a bunch of stuff I'm still in the middle of just these part 3-4 weeks, while barely feeling an itch to wrap up Echoes. It's just not pulling me in.

 

And considering that I felt pretty similar about Master of Mankind - which again was a book that needed to be told and did a lot of "cool" stuff, but still didn't get me overly attached to what happened to the characters (I'm still confused by the overwhelming love for Zephon) - and felt Spears of the Emperor was a one-and-done affair that I didn't feel like going back to... I'd be highly conflicted about an ADB Siege finale. The guy is a good author, but he's definitely not hitting the notes that keep me engaged. I suppose his vision of what the Siege should have been is different from what it actually is, and again from what I'd like it to be.

[Noserenda]

The Major problem with them splitting it into 3 or more parts is that they are going to drag this out for another year at least, probably longer, when the damn book is already written and ready for release, sure if it needs the space due to planning screw ups id rather it had it than a sawn off ending but just get them out, do a set of the limited editions together to cut down on unnecessary fomo stress and lets get it done and on to the socuring.

[DarkChaplain]

But it's apparently not ready for release yet, not all of it. The book is written, yes, but there's still partial polishing and editing happening (probably also due to how it had to be split in two in the first place). We don't have confirmation of it actually being three parts at this point, though. It seems very likely, but it is still speculation on our part, due to them dodging the issue, not making a definitive statement about it.

 

It's all written. The problem seem to be publishing struggles like proofing, formatting, polishing the final product, or "strategic" reasons with scheduling. The writing itself is done, but that isn't the last step a novel has to go through to see the light of day. And if this really is as big of a novel as it looks, that's... a big task.

 

Just looking at how long it takes somebody like Brandon Sanderson, who could be considered one of the most productive authors in the industry, takes from getting a Stormlight book done, or rather, just from the 2nd or 3rd draft to the finalized stage.... it was probably a smart idea to split it in two and finish the editing and publishing in parts. We'll just have to see if it'll actually end up being a three parter, or they're just as bad as usual when it comes to communicating info about their releases.

[Scribe]

7 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

The tone in some of these posts is “I’m tired just wrap this up already”

 

Yes.

 

7 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Theory 2 = those who are not the biggest Abnett fans are the ones most unhappy about a multi volume conclusion? Wonder what the reaction would be if ADB was writing a multi-volume conclusion?

 

ADB wouldn't need 3 books, he wouldn't need 2.

 

He would finish the story, and yes that would be my preference.

 

Abnett could then write 10 novellas that I could ignore about symbols and perpetuals and the fall of the library of Alexandria which somehow is pertinent to some Inquisitor in a backwater in year 42852 in a 40K series I also don't care about.

[SkimaskMohawk]

5 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I agree. Books 2 and 3 did very little to advance any of the assorted sub-plots. Not that they were badly written but you could have squeezed the plots of those two books together without losing much in terms of story.

 

Those two books absolutely were badly written lol. Characterization got thrown out the window.

[DukeLeto69]

11 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Yes.

 

 

ADB wouldn't need 3 books, he wouldn't need 2.

 

He would finish the story, and yes that would be my preference.

 

Abnett could then write 10 novellas that I could ignore about symbols and perpetuals and the fall of the library of Alexandria which somehow is pertinent to some Inquisitor in a backwater in year 42852 in a 40K series I also don't care about.

Many of us would disagree with you. Horses for courses!

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Many of us would disagree with you. Horses for courses!

 

Feel free of course.

 

Meanwhile the core story of the heresy has been lost, mangled, bungled,  neglected, and seemingly bloated out over what, 16 years, all so we can sit in anxiety over some 'surprise twist' that is bound to tie into his personal sandbox. 

 

No :cuss:ing thanks.

[Ubiquitous1984]

47 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Feel free of course.

 

Meanwhile the core story of the heresy has been lost, mangled, bungled,  neglected, and seemingly bloated out over what, 16 years, all so we can sit in anxiety over some 'surprise twist' that is bound to tie into his personal sandbox. 

 

No :cuss:ing thanks.

I think you’re doing Dan a disservice.  I think he truly has collaborated with this book.  He has indicated that for both Legion and Penitent he first approached GW/BL to pitch his ‘surprises’ before writing them (presumably, the existence of the twin Primarch and the supposed identity of the yellow king).  He is clearly an author with respect for the canon and for established lore.  I think we are in safe hands here, and if for whatever reason we aren’t and he changes something so drastic as to meltdown the entire settling (lol Emperor wins and Malcacor and him go on a 10k year bender to celebrate) then it will be GW and the editors at BL who are two blame.

 

But honestly, we’re all just guessing and it’ll probably be this time next year at the earliest when we know what the outcome will be!

Edited December 5, 2022 by Ubiquitous1984

[lansalt]

1 hour ago, DarkChaplain said:

But it's apparently not ready for release yet, not all of it. The book is written, yes, but there's still partial polishing and editing happening (probably also due to how it had to be split in two in the first place). We don't have confirmation of it actually being three parts at this point, though. It seems very likely, but it is still speculation on our part, due to them dodging the issue, not making a definitive statement about it.

Given the recurrent continuity mistakes in BL stories, and books like Echoes of Eternity (who's the fourth primarch again?) being finalized even a year in advance of the actual release , I'd say it has more to do with marketing schedules and release windows to maximize sales.

[Scribe]

4 minutes ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

He has indicated that for both Legion and Penitent he first approached GW/BL to pitch his ‘surprises’ before writing them (presumably, the existence of the twin Primarch and the supposed identity of the yellow king).  He is clearly an author with respect for the canon and for established lore.  I think we are in safe hands here, and if for whatever reason we aren’t and he changes something so drastic as to meltdown the entire settling (lol Emperor wins and Malcacor and him go on a 10k year bender to celebrate) then it will be GW and the editors at BL who are two blame.

 

And I look at Prospero Burns, and don't feel we are safe at all.

 

I also think that Dan gets more leash and asks to make more changes.

 

It is what it is, and all I can do is wait.

[Roomsky]

Besides ADB not needing that many parts for the finale, Abnett is just a completely different beast from the other authors. Any but Abnett tend to try and expand existing elements, while Abnett injects wholly new ones. It could be ADB, Wraight, popular author of your choice - all sit one side of a line Abnett is on the other side of. 

 

Even if the final book feels the need to put a nice bow on Keeler and co, Katsuhiro, Fo and Valdor, Amon, Malcador, Argonis, Loken, and Oll and co in addition to the expected beats, I think most would agree that only 2 books, if even that, are needed to get the Emperor on his throne. That we're probably staring down 3, with Sanguinius v Horus as the climax of book 2, we have to assume this won't just be resolution, but will be throwing further development and independent plot beats into the mix. The worry is - what left-field stuff is Abnett going to inject?

 

And if, at the planning table, they thought Abnett would be able to essentially write a non-finale book and the grand finale book in a single volume, it was bad planning.

 

That said I generally enjoy Abnett madness so as long as Horus kills Sanguinius and the Emperor kills Horus I'll probably enjoy this prose monstrosity immensely.

[System Sound]

23 minutes ago, lansalt said:

Given the recurrent continuity mistakes in BL stories, and books like Echoes of Eternity (who's the fourth primarch again?) being finalized even a year in advance of the actual release , I'd say it has more to do with marketing schedules and release windows to maximize sales.

More likely it's to build artificial hype. But since its GW/BL it just fails miserably, like all their reveals and attempts at hype.

[DukeLeto69]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

 

And I look at Prospero Burns, and don't feel we are safe at all.

 

I also think that Dan gets more leash and asks to make more changes.

 

It is what it is, and all I can do is wait.

Other than “wet leopard growls” I thought Prospero Burns brilliantly expanded the Space Wolves lore and made them so much more than just silly space vikings. The book suffered from two things, bad marketing that implied we would actually see Prospero burn and the fact that it was during the writing of this book that Abnett started suffering seizures and ended up being diagnosed as having epilepsy.

[DukeLeto69]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Feel free of course.

 

Meanwhile the core story of the heresy has been lost, mangled, bungled,  neglected, and seemingly bloated out over what, 16 years, all so we can sit in anxiety over some 'surprise twist' that is bound to tie into his personal sandbox. 

 

No :cuss:ing thanks.

Doubt many people are sitting in anxiety over a “surprise twist”. It will be whatever it is. Once it is published THIS will be canon lore. Whatever you thought you knew about the HH lore (based on a short story by William King and some very poorly structured content in Visions of Heresy by Alan Merritt based on a card game) will no longer stand.

[DarkChaplain]

3 hours ago, Scribe said:

ADB wouldn't need 3 books, he wouldn't need 2.

 

Looking at all the things missing from Echoes - which is barely shorter than Saturnine was! - I'd argue that the finale would be all the poorer for it not being so long, they'd rather split it into two volumes than trim it down.

 

I'm worried as hell that Abnett will be Abnett and have his perpetual/Bequin tie-in cake on top of everything. But I'd say that it's ADB in particular whose contribution failed to wrap up a bunch of these things that now have to be handled in the final entry instead. There were various plotlines that could have ended in Echoes, but didn't. There's plenty of setup that could've happened in Echoes, but - apart from a brief epilogue dump out of left field.... did not.

 

It's annoying as can be that all of this baggage not just of the Siege but also the Heresy as a whole has to be handled by Abnett in this final book - but it's not like this was inevitable. That load could have been shared better.

 

On the other hand, I'm more than happy to let Abnett have two volumes worth of content to avoid the abrupt ending he's basically expected to deliver at this point. I'd rather him seem super-motivated for this two-year novel, stuffing all the stuff in that he felt needed to be there (and judging by the interview, we're getting all the important macro scale stuff and character send-offs, not just the Perpetual plotline) and the editors saying "that's cool, we'll figure out how to put it on the market later".

 

If there's one thing I don't want from the finale is another Unremembered Empire. I want him to actually have room to develop his stuff and have a fully realized ending for once. And I don't just want it to end with "and then we put Daddy on the golden toilet for all eternity" - I want to see the despair of the Primarchs, of Russ and the Lion arriving too late to matter. We've seen glimpses of that, or of Russ and Valdor talking in the aftermath, but I want to experience the full realization of the Loyalists hitting across the entire Solar System that even though the traitors are broken and fleeing, they bloody lost. Not the war, but their hope for the future. I want to see the cracks in Dorn, the grief of Azkaellon (remember him? yeah, neither did the Siege authors), Amit and Raldoron.

 

I want a good amount of time with the cast dwelling on what it means for them. Their dread for the future to be. Quiet time to take stock of the situation, the devastation of the Throneworld, with not a single bolter shell fired anymore.

 

I don't want it to end with the Emperor being placed on the Throne. I want it to end in the solemn silence of the survivors as the Bell of Lost Souls starts tolling ceaselessly, mourning the dead of the Siege.

[cheywood]

Personally the only thing I’m nervous about is getting all the LEs. I don’t particularly want Sanguinius to kill the Emperor as people are speculating, it’s always been Horus and should always be Horus. However, I trust that Abnett will write a beautiful ending even if I don’t like every plot point. For me his voice is always worth hearing, even if I dislike the composition behind it.

[Scribe]

36 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Doubt many people are sitting in anxiety over a “surprise twist”. It will be whatever it is. Once it is published THIS will be canon lore. Whatever you thought you knew about the HH lore (based on a short story by William King and some very poorly structured content in Visions of Heresy by Alan Merritt based on a card game) will no longer stand.

 

Exactly why I never wanted Abnett to write the end, and to have it be one of the 3 authors who can stay within the lines.

 

ADB, Wraight, French.

[Scribe]

26 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

Looking at all the things missing from Echoes

 

Nothing was missing.

[phandaal]

27 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

I'm worried as hell that Abnett will be Abnett and have his perpetual/Bequin tie-in cake on top of everything.

 

That is very likely given the King in Yellow and all that.

[cheywood]

 

17 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Nothing was missing.

I don’t think anything was missing from Echoes, but as a novel it speaks very clearly to the brilliance and the limitations of ADB.  
 

He’s at his best writing highly focused tales centered around one or a few points of view. That’s pretty much the only kind of story he writes, especially in recent years. Even his Siege novel, dealing with perhaps the most grandiose and absurdly huge event in a setting defined by absurdity of scale, feels very small and very personal. I love that about ADB. Echoes is an incredible, breathtaking work of art just like everything he’s written. But I think it also illustrates that ADB as a writer isn’t able to write the way Dan does.

 

Saturnine is like 4 novels stuffed together, each working in concert to tell an awe-inspiringly beautiful tale in their own right. Abnett pretty consistently handles massive casts with a deft hand. To me the finale of the Siege very much needs the latter approach, otherwise we’ll be left with far too many questions and character threads that amount to nothing at all. 
 

I know you’re an avowed Abnett hater and I’m not trying to change any minds here, but I wanted to share why I, as someone who loves their work equally, want to see Abnett handle the end.

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by cheywood

[Scribe]

5 minutes ago, cheywood said:

 

I don’t think anything was missing from Echoes, but as a novel it speaks very clearly to the brilliance and the limitations of ADB.  
 

He’s at his best writing highly focused tales centered around one or a few points of view. That’s pretty much the only kind of story he writes, especially in recent years. Even his Siege novel, dealing with perhaps the most grandiose and absurdly huge event in a setting defined by absurdity of scale, feels very small and very personal. I love that about ADB. Echoes is an incredible, breathtaking work of art just like everything he’s written. But I think it also illustrates that ADB as a writer isn’t able to write the way Dan does.

 

Saturnine is like 4 novels stuffed together, each working in concert to tell an awe-inspiringly beautiful tale in their own right. Abnett pretty consistently handles massive casts with a deft hand. To me the finale of the Siege very much needs the latter approach, otherwise we’ll be left with far too many questions and character threads that amount to nothing at all. 
 

I know you’re an avowed Abnett hater and I’m not trying to change any minds here, but I wanted to share why I, as someone who loves their work equally, want to see Abnett handle the end.

 

 

I dont hate the man, but hes added things to the detriment of the series, and waiting till the last book for a supposed payoff is...tiresome.

[Taliesin]

2 hours ago, cheywood said:

Personally the only thing I’m nervous about is getting all the LEs. I don’t particularly want Sanguinius to kill the Emperor as people are speculating, it’s always been Horus and should always be Horus. However, I trust that Abnett will write a beautiful ending even if I don’t like every plot point. For me his voice is always worth hearing, even if I dislike the composition behind it.

 

Wait, is that a typo? Why would anyone speculate that Sanguinius of all people would kill the Emperor?

[tgcleric]

Long time lurker. First time poster as I finally finished all 54 Horus Heresy novels.

 

As someone who came to warhammer through painting, and had no interest to read books that I was fairly certain would be of a "low" quality, I'm still surprised at how much I've enjoyed many of my black library reads.

 

That said. Abnett is the best writer in the group. And far and away the best at plotting and developing a clear narrative.

 

Bananas to me the amount of dislike, especially when Abnetts stories in HH have often been the foundation that everyone else messes up. 

 

Horus Rising and Legion paint a world and characters as well as thematic through lines so good, no one delivers on them until ABD or Wraight start writing. 

 

And Unremembered empire is just about a miracle in bringing the story back into some of focus.

 

And Prospero Burns is maybe the most literate, best novel in the whole series. Just brilliant Sci fi. 

 

Long story short. HH is lucky to have Abnett. As someone who cares more about storytelling than the lore, as I came here looking for good books not embellished wiki articles of lore from a tabletop game, Abnett can do as he thinks when it comes to wrapping up this bloated mess that would have even better off just having him write 10 novels on his own. 

 

Heck, Horus Rising has more scope and events than the average run of 4 novels in the series. The fact that he then also has memorable and fleshed out characters that have genuine and understandable personal psychology is a little miracle. 

 

Just glad the black library writers seem to acknowledge this and are letting abnett write it. 

 

If it ends up being 3 books, cool. The more he is in charge of the narrative, the better.