The End and the Death: Volume I discussion thread

[Nagashsnee]

5 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

I think the main difference is that Horus is going to be a much tougher opponent in the Finale. The Emperor is not going to fight Horus on his own. Ollianius Pius and others will be by his side from the start

On this you are probably right i fear. The Epic duel will likely not be the E vs H title fight that it has always been portrayed as. 

[DukeLeto69]

2 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

On this you are probably right i fear. The Epic duel will likely not be the E vs H title fight that it has always been portrayed as. 

Going out on a limb here but I think it will be Horus n Dad mano e mano 

 

All the others will lead up to a 1-2-1 face off AND...

 

There will be intercutting between the fight taking place in realspace and the fight concurrently taking place in the warp. Time will flow very differently allowing months or even years to pass in the warp where the battle rages and will resemble something more akin to AoS. BUT there will be pauses in the battle allowing Horus & Dad to talk/discuss their differences of opinion and have a philosophical argument. These discussions will reveal “the truth” about chaos and the Emp.

 

OR PERHAPS NOT!

[Scribe]

3 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

BUT there will be pauses in the battle allowing Horus & Dad to talk/discuss their differences of opinion and have a philosophical argument. These discussions will reveal “the truth” about chaos and the Emp.

 

This is all I want of Abnett. Just this. If he can put this down on paper and have the Emperor own up to his involvement with Chaos. I'll honest to god die easier.

[wecanhaveallthree]

I just can't see it happening.

 

This has been attempted numerous times over the course of the Siege, and every time the Emperor has dismissed Horus out of hand because he's been dead since the Serpent Lodge. Horus has had his mind and soul so thoroughly murdered through this series - the Serpent Lodge, through the gate on Molech, getting shanked by the Spear, having Maloghurst literally go on a dream quest to murder him with an athame - that he really is just not there by this point. There's nothing to talk to. There's no 'philosophical argument' or 'difference of opinion'. We know why Horus did his Heresy. There's nothing left to say, and no realistic opportunity to do so. Horus isn't a character any more. He's a vehicle for the Ruinous Powers, and that's it. The ship has thematically sailed.

 

'The truth' should always have been revealed through the Emperor and the Loyalists. It's conflict, friction - that's why it worked in Wolfsbane when Leman finds out 'the truth' and it not only kills him (he gets better), but it's explicitly the reason he leaves the Imperium down the line. But that time has come and gone. It certainly would have been interesting to have it be hashed out with Malcador and Erda, too - those are two characters that would have been oodles of fun on the page - or Malcador and the Loyalists. But Malcador's been sidelined just as thoroughly as the Emperor through the Siege. I don't think a big monologue at the end of the series is, or ever was, the right way to deliver 'the truth'. It should always have been a gradual thing, a long-buried conspiracy, a source of pride and shame. It's the crux of the Emperor's decision to appear and lead, and the impetus behind his Great Crusade. The Emperor's relationship with Chaos should always have been better hinted-at, better documented, better foreshadowed beyond 'what happened on Molech (and what's the deal with world spirits)'.

 

Now, of course, I'm going to ride my Fake Horus theory right up until the end and am fully committed to that being The Twist. But the lead has been so thoroughly buried in relation to 'the truth' that just about anything is going to feel like an asspull. Maybe Samus did it. Who knows?

[Moonreaper666]

On 12/10/2022 at 9:36 AM, Scribe said:

 

This is all I want of Abnett. Just this. If he can put this down on paper and have the Emperor own up to his involvement with Chaos. I'll honest to god die easier.

 

I think that will occur in Part 2, AFTER the duel or while he 'talks' to a Daemon or the Chaos Gods themselves

 

The more interesting part is when the Daemons in the VS talked to Abaddon, telling him his future as the new Warmaster. The Neverborn also tell him he can be more than Horus could be.

[DarkChaplain]

....if you think Abaddon's whole deal is being talked into becoming the new big boss of Chaos by freakin' warp vermin, after all that's been written about him, I don't think you get the character at all. It's never been about the daemon juice for him, or their promises of power. Heck, Saturnine was all about him pulling it off without the corruption nonsense he despises.

 

Come on, at least go and read Extinction, The Talon of Horus and Black Legion.

[Moonreaper666]

Spoiler

The wall was honeycombed with defensive turrets, reinforced with layer upon layer of plasteel and rockcrete, turned into a rampart manned by over a hundred thousand defenders stationed around the Inner Sanctum. Custodians. Sisters of Silence. Blood Angels. White Scars. Imperial Fists. Imperial Army soldiers. Refugees. Civilians. All of them, shoulder to shoulder, standing in the shadows of the Titans watching over them.

 

With so few of the already miniscule defenders still alive I doubt the Palace defenders can hold out against the Daemons and the few (by comparison) Traitors that can bypass Eternity Gate long enough for Guilliman to reach Horus

 

(Until Eternity Gate or someother blocked-path blows up and the Traitors burst in BY THE MILLIONS to bum-rush the Golden Throne!)

 

Spoiler

In times of peace, the great space ports of Terra had moved billions of tons of cargo and millions of people from orbit to surface and back every hour. Now they were turned to a single purpose: to move every scrap of remaining men and materiel from the Warmaster’s fleet to the surface of Terra. The cycle of ships and landing craft turned tirelessly, each one locked into a schedule and pattern that ran to the minute. Iron Warriors helmsmen and tugs guided the ships of those forces that were too far gone to meet the Lord of Iron’s requirement and precision.

 

Thunder shivered up and down the orbital spires as ships came in or broke dock. Rust and caked corrosion flaked free from tower sections the size of mountains. Vibration compensators sang as they worked to stop the mountains of metal shaking apart from competing forces. In the docking limbs and landing pads everything was movement and the clangour of machines and labour. Crews of servitors and whipped slaves dragged containers of shells, cylinders of plasma, boxes of rounds. Tanks rolled directly from the guts of ships into macro hoists. War machines stalked, skittered and dragged themthemselves into transit chambers and began the drop down to the lower levels. Regiments of troops, herds of things that had bred in the shadows of the warp, and a tide of the lost and the damned flowed down to the surface of Terra. On and on it went, like water gushing from an opened sluice, like blood pumping from a beating heart.

 

From Saturnine to The End and The Death Part II, MILLIONS of Traitors descend to Terra EVERY HOUR!

 

Daemons vastly outnumber the very few defenders in the Palace, Corswain's group AND the remnants of the White Scars alltogether!!!

[Scribe]

On 12/23/2022 at 8:13 PM, Moonreaper666 said:

rom Saturnine to The End and The Death Part II, MILLIONS of Traitors descend to Terra EVERY HOUR!

 

And it matters not. They lose, they die.

 

Chaos routs, and is chased back to the Eye.

 

Horus dies.

 

The Throne stands for another 10,000 years.

 

Terra does not fall.

 

For all you claim to hope to have happen, its all for naught.

[grailkeeper]

The Titanic was the most modern ship of its age! Why the white star line itself said it is unsinkable. No way a story about the titanic will end with it going to the bottom of the sea.

[System Sound]

Millions! Billion's! Gigamilions! Where do you keep gettings these numbers? You keep stating things but never provide any sources.

 

And traitors will fail, they already are, as of 2 books?

Spoiler

Why do I bother, you won't read any of this any way.

 

[Lord_Caerolion]

On 12/24/2022 at 3:13 PM, Moonreaper666 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

The wall was honeycombed with defensive turrets, reinforced with layer upon layer of plasteel and rockcrete, turned into a rampart manned by over a hundred thousand defenders stationed around the Inner Sanctum. Custodians. Sisters of Silence. Blood Angels. White Scars. Imperial Fists. Imperial Army soldiers. Refugees. Civilians. All of them, shoulder to shoulder, standing in the shadows of the Titans watching over them.

 

With so few of the already miniscule defenders still alive I doubt the Palace defenders can hold out against the Daemons and the few (by comparison) Traitors that can bypass Eternity Gate long enough for Guilliman to reach Horus

 

(Until Eternity Gate or someother blocked-path blows up and the Traitors burst in BY THE MILLIONS to bum-rush the Golden Throne!)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

In times of peace, the great space ports of Terra had moved billions of tons of cargo and millions of people from orbit to surface and back every hour. Now they were turned to a single purpose: to move every scrap of remaining men and materiel from the Warmaster’s fleet to the surface of Terra. The cycle of ships and landing craft turned tirelessly, each one locked into a schedule and pattern that ran to the minute. Iron Warriors helmsmen and tugs guided the ships of those forces that were too far gone to meet the Lord of Iron’s requirement and precision.

 

Thunder shivered up and down the orbital spires as ships came in or broke dock. Rust and caked corrosion flaked free from tower sections the size of mountains. Vibration compensators sang as they worked to stop the mountains of metal shaking apart from competing forces. In the docking limbs and landing pads everything was movement and the clangour of machines and labour. Crews of servitors and whipped slaves dragged containers of shells, cylinders of plasma, boxes of rounds. Tanks rolled directly from the guts of ships into macro hoists. War machines stalked, skittered and dragged themthemselves into transit chambers and began the drop down to the lower levels. Regiments of troops, herds of things that had bred in the shadows of the warp, and a tide of the lost and the damned flowed down to the surface of Terra. On and on it went, like water gushing from an opened sluice, like blood pumping from a beating heart.

From Saturnine to The End and The Death Part II, MILLIONS of Traitors descend to Terra EVERY HOUR!

 

Daemons vastly outnumber the very few defenders in the Palace, Corswain's group AND the remnants of the White Scars alltogether!!!

From Saturnine to The End and The Death Part II, MILLIONS of those Traitors got blown apart by the siege defences EVERY HOUR too. 
 

This is your problem, Moonreaper. Every time you look at the Chaos position, your response is “OMG they’re so cool, Doombreed is the best! Be’Lakor is so awesome! Since they’re so awesome, they must kill like… BILLIONS of guys by themselves, because they’re so COOL! I bet they must have, like, TRILLIONS of guys with them, that’d be so awesome! Khârn must be, like, singlehandedly destroying entire defence lines, while daemons are arriving in their QUADRILLIONS so things can be SO GRIMDARK!!!”

 

Then you look at the Loyalist stuff, and your mentality changes to “psh, they’ve gotta have only what, 100k defenders to start with? There’s no way they could be killing anywhere near enough of the Traitor forces, those guys have DOOMBREED! There’s gotta be like a QUINTILLION Traitors on Terra now, there’s no way the Loyalists can hold out!”

 

You say you read the books, but prove time and again to not take in anything that doesn’t back up your “Chaos is the Awesomest” headcanon. You keep shoehorning the latest supposedly OP Daemon Prince you just discovered on Lexicanum into all your theories, because you don’t want a story, you want name-dropped characters being written getting impossibly-high kill-counts, all in the name of “grim-darkness”. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

I still don't understand the whole "traitors have tons of guys in reserve on the fleet" thing that moonreapers convinced of. They really, truly, don't at this point. They needed to break terra asap; the ground siege covers a continent of fortifications and has lasted half a year of nonstop combat. Their best military mind, the one who had the knowledge and authority to decide on reserves, has left the theatre. Their whole outlook has warped into blood thirst and hunger for glory; you have Marines that want to be the first to break X wall, Marines that want to kill X hero, Marines that need to prove themselves as newbloods, Marines that need to get out of the shadow of their predecessors, Marines that need redemption for failures. You can see it in last wall, in saturnine, in Warhawk, and in echoes. They're so bloodthirsty by echos that you have them pilot gunships through extremely lethal ash clouds just to get places faster, and when the skies allow flight, just crash land them in for the fastest delivery possible.

 

There's no reserves.

 

Also echoes ends with the world eaters butchering everything around them (that being other traitors) and the thousand sons imploding. The Emperor's children have largely left with fulgrim, the sons of Horus got crushed at saturnine, the iron warriors largely left with perturabo, the death guard lost a lot of numbers at lions Gate and are in primarch death withdrawal. The word bearers, alpha legion, and night lords were only there in token forces. And all their leaders are dead or hiding from Sigismund and corswain. They're shattered, completely. 

[Moonreaper666]

38 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

I still don't understand the whole "traitors have tons of guys in reserve on the fleet" thing that moonreapers convinced of. They really, truly, don't at this point. They needed to break terra asap; the ground siege covers a continent of fortifications and has lasted half a year of nonstop combat. Their best military mind, the one who had the knowledge and authority to decide on reserves, has left the theatre. Their whole outlook has warped into blood thirst and hunger for glory; you have Marines that want to be the first to break X wall, Marines that want to kill X hero, Marines that need to prove themselves as newbloods, Marines that need to get out of the shadow of their predecessors, Marines that need redemption for failures. You can see it in last wall, in saturnine, in Warhawk, and in echoes. They're so bloodthirsty by echos that you have them pilot gunships through extremely lethal ash clouds just to get places faster, and when the skies allow flight, just crash land them in for the fastest delivery possible.

 

There's no reserves.

 

Also echoes ends with the world eaters butchering everything around them (that being other traitors) and the thousand sons imploding. The Emperor's children have largely left with fulgrim, the sons of Horus got crushed at saturnine, the iron warriors largely left with perturabo, the death guard lost a lot of numbers at lions Gate and are in primarch death withdrawal. The word bearers, alpha legion, and night lords were only there in token forces. And all their leaders are dead or hiding from Sigismund and corswain. They're shattered, completely. 

 

Sons of Horus only lost Three COMPANIES at Saturnine! 300 out of HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of Marines!!!

 

Astartes from ALL NINE TRAITOR LEGIONS participated in 

 

World Eaters are too far away to attack Traitor Titans and 

 

I am definitely the only one that read Mortis

 

Each Spaceport can move MILLIONS of men and BILLIONS of TONS of material from space to Terra IN AN HOUR!!!

 

The Traitors held Lion Gate Spaceport for over FIFTY DAYS!!!

 

The White Scars did not kill MILLIONS of Chaos Cultists during Warhawk!!!

[Arkangilos]

53 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

I still don't understand the whole "traitors have tons of guys in reserve on the fleet" thing that moonreapers convinced of. They really, truly, don't at this point. They needed to break terra asap; the ground siege covers a continent of fortifications and has lasted half a year of nonstop combat. Their best military mind, the one who had the knowledge and authority to decide on reserves, has left the theatre. Their whole outlook has warped into blood thirst and hunger for glory; you have Marines that want to be the first to break X wall, Marines that want to kill X hero, Marines that need to prove themselves as newbloods, Marines that need to get out of the shadow of their predecessors, Marines that need redemption for failures. You can see it in last wall, in saturnine, in Warhawk, and in echoes. They're so bloodthirsty by echos that you have them pilot gunships through extremely lethal ash clouds just to get places faster, and when the skies allow flight, just crash land them in for the fastest delivery possible.

 

There's no reserves.

 

Also echoes ends with the world eaters butchering everything around them (that being other traitors) and the thousand sons imploding. The Emperor's children have largely left with fulgrim, the sons of Horus got crushed at saturnine, the iron warriors largely left with perturabo, the death guard lost a lot of numbers at lions Gate and are in primarch death withdrawal. The word bearers, alpha legion, and night lords were only there in token forces. And all their leaders are dead or hiding from Sigismund and corswain. They're shattered, completely. 

Kind of makes me wonder if the loyalists should have just waited on terra and not gone for the flag ship. 
 

I mean, they were so close with reinforcements very close.

[Cactus]

6 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

Kind of makes me wonder if the loyalists should have just waited on terra and not gone for the flag ship. 
 

I mean, they were so close with reinforcements very close.

Yes but... numbers and the large scale of the overall siege mean less when the fighting is this close to the throne. I expect TEatD to ramp up the level of imminent threat, particularly from the webway. The traitors are depleted and uncoordinated but a small fraction of their strength in the right place is a genuine threat and they're still getting closer. And vice versa of course, which is why a one-on-one duel aboard the Vengeful Spirit is a gamble that both parties are willing to take.

[grailkeeper]

7 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

Kind of makes me wonder if the loyalists should have just waited on terra and not gone for the flag ship. 
 

I mean, they were so close with reinforcements very close.

 

We know more than they did about the reinforcements. 

[Karhedron]

7 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

Kind of makes me wonder if the loyalists should have just waited on terra and not gone for the flag ship. 
 

I mean, they were so close with reinforcements very close.

 

In the original fluff, lowering the shields was a ruse by Horus to lure the Emperor into a trap. He managed to block all communication (including psychic) so the defenders didn't know help was coming. Even though his forces were still formidable, he had run out of time and was about to be caught between the hammer and anvil.

 

Of course a lot has changed. The relief force is now the Ultramarines instead of the Space Wolves and Dark Angels. So we will have to see how it pans out. 

[Arkangilos]

29 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

In the original fluff, lowering the shields was a ruse by Horus to lure the Emperor into a trap. He managed to block all communication (including psychic) so the defenders didn't know help was coming. Even though his forces were still formidable, he had run out of time and was about to be caught between the hammer and anvil.

 

Of course a lot has changed. The relief force is now the Ultramarines instead of the Space Wolves and Dark Angels. So we will have to see how it pans out. 

True!

Just checked though, it’s all three of those legions coming within a week. But like you guys said the defenders didn’t know how close they were (and Horus did). So maybe it’s still a ruse.

[Moonreaper666]

23 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

True!

Just checked though, it’s all three of those legions coming within a week. But like you guys said the defenders didn’t know how close they were (and Horus did). So maybe it’s still a ruse.

 

The Sons of Horus, Death Guard, World Eaters, Thousand Sons and Emperpors Children each have one fleet

 

The Dark Mechanicum, Traitor Imperial Navy and Pirates/Rogue Traders/Cultists have Multiple Fleets

 

It will take days for Guilliman to reach the Vengeful Spirit

[Lord_Caerolion]

I’m guessing it’s more of a “no, we must finish this now. Horus cannot be allowed to escape.”

 

If they rely purely on the incoming fleet, there’s the chance that Horus flees, and the Vengeful Spirit escapes, allowing him to rebuild his forces elsewhere. The Emperor needs to ensure that Horus dies, and ends the war. 
 

… Or, if you like the conspiracy theory (which I’m on the fence about), the Emperor needs to ensure that Horus is killed while invested with the full power of the Gods, to drastically weaken, if not kill them. Letting Guilliman kill him with lance batteries won’t likely have that happen. 
 

As for what I’m expecting, my current belief is that we might see both the lowering of the shields, as well as the final twist, be linked. 
It’s not Horus who drops the shield, it’s Omegon, making his play for the third outcome, of eternal stalemate. He drops the shields on the Vengeful Spirit to bait the Emperor into a final gambit, to get them both in the one place. 
Then, in the final fight, the Emperor manages to overcome Horus, killing him, only for Omegon to slip from the shadows and stab the Emperor with an athame before Dorn arrives, forcing his entombment on the Golden Throne. 

[DukeLeto69]

29 minutes ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

I’m guessing it’s more of a “no, we must finish this now. Horus cannot be allowed to escape.”

 

If they rely purely on the incoming fleet, there’s the chance that Horus flees, and the Vengeful Spirit escapes, allowing him to rebuild his forces elsewhere. The Emperor needs to ensure that Horus dies, and ends the war. 
 

… Or, if you like the conspiracy theory (which I’m on the fence about), the Emperor needs to ensure that Horus is killed while invested with the full power of the Gods, to drastically weaken, if not kill them. Letting Guilliman kill him with lance batteries won’t likely have that happen. 
 

As for what I’m expecting, my current belief is that we might see both the lowering of the shields, as well as the final twist, be linked. 
It’s not Horus who drops the shield, it’s Omegon, making his play for the third outcome, of eternal stalemate. He drops the shields on the Vengeful Spirit to bait the Emperor into a final gambit, to get them both in the one place. 
Then, in the final fight, the Emperor manages to overcome Horus, killing him, only for Omegon to slip from the shadows and stab the Emperor with an athame before Dorn arrives, forcing his entombment on the Golden Throne. 

I truly hope not! Edit - the Omegon thang!

Edited December 29, 2022 by DukeLeto69

[lansalt]

The Emperor was already talking about a eternal stalemate "solution" even before the Siege starts. He explains it to Malcador in The Board is Set, and later sends it as a 40k vision (the Emperor's Acuity) to Alivia Sureka in Fury of Magnus.  Given all the other hints in the series, I fully expect that part of big reveal would be the confirmation that the Emperor planned what happens to him in the Vengeful Spirit, and becoming bound to the Throne forever.

 

 

[Taliesin]

At Warcom they said this today when talking about this book:

 

Quote

The end is nigh, and the full story behind the Horus Heresy’s climax will be laid bare when the first volume of The End and The Death drops in 2023. This multi-part epic heralds the end of the Siege of Terra series, complete with twists and turns you’ll never see coming as the Emperor and Horus near their final, fateful encounter.

 

That does suggest significant changes from the Collected Visions book. Or, perhaps not that many changes, but many new things.

[Lord_Caerolion]

9 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

The Sons of Horus, Death Guard, World Eaters, Thousand Sons and Emperpors Children each have one fleet

 

The Dark Mechanicum, Traitor Imperial Navy and Pirates/Rogue Traders/Cultists have Multiple Fleets

 

It will take days for Guilliman to reach the Vengeful Spirit

The fact that the Traitor fleet has withdrawn from the White Scars shows that they aren’t in any real condition for proper fighting. The Traitor fleet is a shadow of what it once was, having had to fight through the entire Solar System, taking significant losses each step of the way. 
 

Imperial Navy isn’t a thing yet, and most Imperial Army ships are troop carriers. Dark Mechanicum, wouldn’t count on them too much for the previously explained reasons. 
 

The last thing to remember is that the Traitor fleets have lost their most powerful weapon. Well, not “lost”, per se, more that they’ve already used them. The most dangerous weapon an Astartes vessel has is its Astartes. 
The Traitors have deployed all of theirs, or at least the overwhelming majority. The incoming Loyalists have more than they need to board and capture each near-crippled and ammo-starved vessel remaining in the Traitor fleet. 
 

Traitor Fleet vs Guilliman Fleet is not a fight the Traitors can win, or even stall. That’s why it’s described as such a game-ending threat to Horus, each and every time it’s mentioned. 

[Sothalor]

27 minutes ago, Taliesin said:

At Warcom they said this today when talking about this book:

 

 

That does suggest significant changes from the Collected Visions book. Or, perhaps not that many changes, but many new things.

 

I wouldn't put any stock in anything WarCom says about any of their products. They're marketing hype generators, whose job is to plaster big, attention-getting catchphrases to drum up enthusiasm for [Next Product].

 

:cuss:, if you go by the "big" Black Library stream, and the blurbs they toss up about the books they haven't read the Siege of Terra.

 

Remember how Sanguinius had an epic showdown with Ka'Bandha in Saturnine? WarCom remembers!