Best infantry shoty unit?

[Maybe Omegon]

Hi, i was just wandering What is the best infantry unit to shot people, any thougths?

 

[MichaelCarmine]

Tyrant Siege Terminators or Fulmentarus Terminators if Terminator Armour.

Heavy Support Squads and its Variants if Power Armour.

Edit: ...atleast in my opinion xD

Edited November 21, 2022 by MichaelCarmine

[jaxom]

Heavy support squad with volkite put out a lot of shots and with deflagrate the statistics are pretty good as all-rounders against infantry. Tactical support squad with plasma guns are great against power armor and light vehicles. Plasma cannons are hit-or-miss depending on the target's spacing. Someone would have to double check the math, but I think you get more hits with plasma guns in most situations.

 

Legion specific options, yeah, @MichaelCarmine has it right: Tyrant Siege for Iron Warriors and Fulmentarus for Ultramarines are just good.

[Maybe Omegon]

58 minutes ago, jaxom said:

Heavy support squad with volkite put out a lot of shots and with deflagrate the statistics are pretty good as all-rounders against infantry. Tactical support squad with plasma guns are great against power armor and light vehicles. Plasma cannons are hit-or-miss depending on the target's spacing. Someone would have to double check the math, but I think you get more hits with plasma guns in most situations.

 

Legion specific options, yeah, @MichaelCarmine has it right: Tyrant Siege for Iron Warriors and Fulmentarus for Ultramarines are just good.

I think that pyroclast deserve a mention, especially with solar auxilia coming out

[Noserenda]

Heavy weapon terminators are strong as they can dish it out and take it, i suspect Silent Judges may be a sleeper hit as they let you shoot without worrying about reactions. Heavy support wise you really cant go wrong with lascannons right now as the actually all rounder MVP, at least until they realise they are hilarious undercosted! Delete tanks, maul elites and scatter hordes regardless of FNP? The lascannon does it all :D 

[SlickSamos]

To shoot who? 

6+ AS: Missiles & Hand Flamers

5+ AS: Bolters / Volkite / Flamers

4+ AS: Plasma / Heavy Bolters / Heavy Flamers

3+ AS: Missiles / Plasma / high volume of shots (e.g. Tactical Marines)

2+ AS: Meltas and Lascannons (Plasma less so due to the new 2W profiles)

 

There isn't a best unit until you get into the specifics of your target, amount of terrain, range and which army you are playing.  

[Brother_Angelus]

Honestly Nemesis bolters on recon squads have been MVP in practically every game I've played. Being able to Rend into dreadnoughts and pick out important characters from units has been so important I wouldn't leave home without at least 10.

[Xenith]

On 11/21/2022 at 6:24 PM, Noserenda said:

The lascannon does it all

 

This is basically what I've come to realise also - but applies to any S8+ AP2 really. Stuff like Lascannons will kill as many marines as like a volkite culverin, but can also ID terminators and damage tanks for a couple of points more, or the same points as a sponson. 

 

With that in mind, I can also suggest EC Sunkillers and IW Iron Havocs, for BS5, then ignore cover and precision shots respectively. Expensive though. In terms of shorter range shooting, I'm loving scorpius seekers - breaching 4+ and precision 4+ is great and can maul power armour and put a dent in TDA units also. 

[Mandragola]

Lascannon squads are annoyingly good. They do just work all the time and if anything they are more necessary now Custodes exist. There are some fairly oppressive options for them too, like deathguard ones that can move and shoot or Imperial Fists with Line thanks to a Castellan.

 

I do quite like Mor Deythan with combi-volkites. A unit of those can spit out a ludicrous amount of 4+ rending shots, but only once. Even after that they've got a lot of dakka and decent melee ability. 

[suxdavide]

I'm on the same side of Mandragola, Mor Deythan (although for a single turn) almost always grant for a insta-kill any squad.

 

This applies for both HH1 and HH2 where in the former edition combi-volkite replace the combi-flamer ;)

[Brother Kraskor]

IW Havocs with lascannons + a MoS Warlord, Tyrant of Lyssatra. The lascannons now have two shots each, yes Gets Hot but BS6 so you re-roll 1s so good chances of not blowing themselves up. Cheeky!

[LameBeard]

I’m still not sure why lascannons are so cheap compared with multi-meltas this edition - am I missing something? 
 

I just bought some las cannons to kitbash onto my Proteus speeder before realising that’s not a legal option! Gonna find something else to give them to …

[MichaelCarmine]

Well, Lascannons got 1 buff, coming from HH1.0, namely the Sunder special rule.

Multimeltas got 2 buffs, they are now twin-linked, and there is no more armored Ceramite.

Also - Sunder has no effect against Dreadnoughts, whereas Armorbane(Melta) lets you reroll to wound.

And there seem to be a lot mor Dreads on the Field compared to HH1.0!

 

That's also why i hope, i'll never have to play against Deathguard and those "relentless" MM HSSs in their Troop section... in my Opinion one of the scariest Shooty Units out there!

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, LameBeard said:

I’m still not sure why lascannons are so cheap compared with multi-meltas this edition - am I missing something? 
 

I just bought some las cannons to kitbash onto my Proteus speeder before realising that’s not a legal option! Gonna find something else to give them to …

 

I'd assume it's the lack of armoured ceramite to mitigate on vehicles, the twinlinked, and how armourbane gets utility against dreads and stuff with a reroll to wound as well. It's a very strong weapon, and is largely the more lethal of the two. However, you do actually need to get in range with it and that paired with it being Heavy means that it's very clunky to use on the heavy support squad; seeing as its basically the cheapest way to get mass heavy weapons on the field in both points and money, that's pretty much what we associate with heavy weapons. But you start taking it on scimitars or Proteuses and you can start appreciating them a bit more.

 

The last thing that can obscure their value is how their points vary so much across units. This happens with more than the multimelta, but not to it's degree; a rhino can buy one for 30, a sabre for 25, but a contemptor can get a gravis melta for 5. 

 

But bringing this around to infantry, even sharing the same 10 points as las, and even on death guard, it's just a lot easier to get value out of the lascannon due to their range, something reactions only double down on.

[Gorgoff]

14 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

The last thing that can obscure their value is how their points vary so much across units. This happens with more than the multimelta, but not to it's degree; a rhino can buy one for 30, a sabre for 25, but a contemptor can get a gravis melta for 5. 

 

And the last one has two shots and the Contemptor has BS5. 

[Xenith]

On 11/27/2022 at 5:48 AM, Gorgoff said:

And the last one has two shots and the Contemptor has BS5. 

 

Bear in mind the contemptor replaces the bolt cannon with the melta for 5pts, while the rhino adds a melta as an extra weapon for 30. 

 

I used a unit of 8 lascannon HSS marines in a game on Monday, it just kind of felt bad - they nuke anything they touch, if you shoot them, you die right back (though not with my rolling) and augury scanners mean you might as well leave that reserved vehicle off the table. My opponent brought on a Lightning T2, in range of the lascannons, I got 2 hits on snap shots, then it died. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

On 11/30/2022 at 9:52 AM, Xenith said:

Bear in mind the contemptor replaces the bolt cannon with the melta for 5pts, while the rhino adds a melta as an extra weapon for 30.

 

There's definitely a factor where heavy bolters tend to discount a bit from any potential upgraded weapon. But like, the scimitars HB>MM is 15, the sabres HB>MM is 25, the javelins HB>MM is 10.

 

The safe bet is that it shaves 5 points off the top, but they can't decide how much that ceiling should be. 

[Xenith]

There was also the older rules that weapons cost more depending on the platform - how durable it was and how many heavy weapons you could cram into it - up until recently (8th ed?) heavy weapons in 40k Devastator squads were much more expensive than in Tactical squads due to lack of split fire. 

[Gorgoff]

On 12/5/2022 at 9:53 AM, Xenith said:

There was also the older rules that weapons cost more depending on the platform - how durable it was and how many heavy weapons you could cram into it - up until recently (8th ed?) heavy weapons in 40k Devastator squads were much more expensive than in Tactical squads due to lack of split fire. 

Well, in HH they seem to use the good old throw-a-dice system to get their point costs.

[Astartes Consul]

Legion specific, but IF Heavy Support marines with Autocannons must be one of the most points effective non-tank shooting units?

 

A squad of ten is putting out twenty BS5, S7, Rending shots at a range where a lot infantry and even light armour won't be able to effectively return fire. And a Castellian makes them scoring IIRC?

 

With no upgrades other than the weapons, that's around 225pts I think.

 

[SlickSamos]

Downside being static and only rending 6+ - Death Guard with Lascannons on the other hand...

 

But then we start getting into how many points are you willing to spend on a T4 W1 AS3+ model which does rather complicate it further...

[Gorgoff]

11 hours ago, SlickSamos said:

Downside being static and only rending 6+ - Death Guard with Lascannons on the other hand...

But they aren't Line.

Imperial Fists Heavy Support Squad are line as well when a Castellan is in your army. In Missions where you deploy objectives it is easy to put one of these in each deployment zone where you want to put a Heavy Support Squad as well. 

Ten dudes killing and shooting and score. It is ridiculous.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Gorgoff

[SlickSamos]

On 11/21/2022 at 6:51 PM, SlickSamos said:

There isn't a best unit until you get into the specifics of your target, amount of terrain, range and which army you are playing.  

Or mobility, playstyle, scoring, points cost, durability, etc... My point being that if the OP wants useful feedback from this thread, some specifics should be layed out...  

[Noserenda]

I mean, if you need a character to grant line, any legion can take a herald

[SlickSamos]

On reflection I was a bit grumpy last night, sorry Gorgoff.

 

Perhaps we should divide the question into categories:

Best Anti-Dreadnought (probably one of the mors durable units)

Best Anti-Marine (probably the most numerous of units)

 

We could also set a points limit on the problem?  Or do a per/point assessment? (That might be overkill though)

 

Other categories would probably be breaking it up into short and long range, static or mobile.