Fluff prediction: Changes to Regiment make up

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think the ban on combined arms regiments for the guard will be going away.

with the rift and the difficulties of travel and communication what makes a regiment unlikely to be able to have a successful rebellion also leave a regiment in danger if it can’t communicate what support it needs reliably let alone that support actually getting there.

 

not to mention the reasoning for the mono-role regiments was always pretty flimsy since a colonel or general in charge of a regiment wouldn’t really ever have the man power or fire power to have any hope of launching a successful rebellion against the imperium.

Edited November 27, 2022 by duz_
Updated title

[duz_]

Do you mean the separation of Navy and Imperial Guard? 

 

I've never read or heard of certain regiments only allowed to be mech or infantry etc. In fact most lore I've read seems to be the opposite case. Although due to force availability it doesn't mean you always see full combined arms regiments. 

 

Cadia Stands is a good example of a full combined armed force. 

[Emperor Ming]

Maybe

 

Chenkov certainly proved that, nobody cares about your methods as long as you produce results

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

32 minutes ago, duz_ said:

Do you mean the separation of Navy and Imperial Guard? 

 

I've never read or heard of certain regiments only allowed to be mech or infantry etc. In fact most lore I've read seems to be the opposite case. Although due to force availability it doesn't mean you always see full combined arms regiments. 

 

Cadia Stands is a good example of a full combined armed force. 

What combined arms regiments are you referring to in lore?

 

Cadian regiments are not all one single regiment. Cadia stands box set has nothing to do with the lore.

there are Cadian armored regiments and Cadian artillery regiments, and Cadian infantry regiments.

 

 

Codexes break down how regiments are made up.

 

if you look at lexicanum the 13th Cadian armored regiment, it’s noted that they have some artillery because that’s unusual.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[jarms48]

7 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I think the ban on combined arms regiments for the guard will be going away.

with the rift and the difficulties of travel and communication what makes a regiment unlikely to be able to have a successful rebellion also leave a regiment in danger if it can’t communicate what support it needs reliably let alone that support actually getting there.

 

not to mention the reasoning for the mono-role regiments was always pretty flimsy since a colonel or general in charge of a regiment wouldn’t really ever have the man power or fire power to have any hope of launching a successful rebellion against the imperium.

 

Nah, the codex simply explains more on the regiment system. How the Navy and Guard were split. How the Guard were split into specialist regiments, and any combined arms is done at the regimental level.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

47 minutes ago, jarms48 said:

 

Nah, the codex simply explains more on the regiment system. How the Navy and Guard were split. How the Guard were split into specialist regiments, and any combined arms is done at the regimental level.

That’s my point.

the codexes point out regiments are specialists, but I know past codexes also give break downs of examples of how regiments are organized.

 

id have to go look through my older ones to see which one it is specifically.

 

Page 15 of the current codex clearly shows example regiments, armored are all vehicles, and infantry is all infantry.

 

page 33 of the 3rd Ed codex like wise has a break down of an example regiment, it’s all infantry no combined arms.

[spafe]

8 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

That’s my point.

the codexes point out regiments are specialists, but I know past codexes also give break downs of examples of how regiments are organized.

I'm not sure what you are suggesting here. Combined arm regiments are... not really a thing. I mean, the guard are nominally setup using regiments, companies, platoons etc in a similar way to modern militaries (very very nominally). That is what we have now, you have cav. regiments (tanks), mechanised inf, and inf. regiments. This is to aid logistics as much as anything else, those troopers from a inf. regiment will train and be equipped as infantrymen, while those cav. regiments will need vehicle garages/workshops, specialist tools, a different training facility etc. While deployed, modern armies would not commit single regiments to a zone, they would have combined deployments as required.

 

This is what the guard already do as far as I am aware. 

 

Having an artillery regiment with a designated company for close defence could be a thing I support, or a infantry company for base defence within an air cav regiment, but generally, its cross regiment deployment.

 

Imperial navy (fleet) and Imperial guard (ground troops) have been separated, and I suspect they will remain so. That is due to the logic of no single person being able to form a full rebellion, as the fleet couldnt hold ground and the ground troops couldnt get off planet independently. But within the guard itself... they have been a combined force always as far as I am aware in terms of how they are portrayed in the fluff and how they expect to play on the table.

[Lord_Ikka]

If you take the Sabbat Crusade, you'll see up to a dozen regiments with various specializations deployed on a planet to take it, working underneath a commanding general. The overall effort is combined-arms, rarely will you see a regiment itself as a self-contained unit; as @spafe stated the differing requirements for all of the elements of a combined-arms approach makes logistics difficult in a regimental sense, but works better on the macro, or planetary, scale that Astra Militarum/Adeptus Munitorum seem to favor. 

 

The opposite, extremely specialized regiments, is also fairly rare- you have few regiments like the Tanith 1st (stealth infiltrators) or Volpone Glory Boys (Scion-equivalent mechanized), but the vast majority will fit into fairly standard regimental designations- Infantry, Mechanized Infantry/Calvary, Armored, Artillery, Super-Heavy, etc... The novels/lore may focus quite a bit on the extremely specialized regiments because, well, they're fun and unique, but the vast majority of IG will be issued Cadian-equivalent weaponry/gear and fit into a standard designation to better integrate into Warmaster/Lord Militant General level planning.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Lord_Ikka

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, spafe said:

I'm not sure what you are suggesting here. Combined arm regiments are... not really a thing. I mean, the guard are nominally setup using regiments, companies, platoons etc in a similar way to modern militaries (very very nominally). That is what we have now, you have cav. regiments (tanks), mechanised inf, and inf. regiments. This is to aid logistics as much as anything else, those troopers from a inf. regiment will train and be equipped as infantrymen, while those cav. regiments will need vehicle garages/workshops, specialist tools, a different training facility etc. While deployed, modern armies would not commit single regiments to a zone, they would have combined deployments as required.

 

This is what the guard already do as far as I am aware. 

 

Having an artillery regiment with a designated company for close defence could be a thing I support, or a infantry company for base defence within an air cav regiment, but generally, its cross regiment deployment.

 

Imperial navy (fleet) and Imperial guard (ground troops) have been separated, and I suspect they will remain so. That is due to the logic of no single person being able to form a full rebellion, as the fleet couldnt hold ground and the ground troops couldnt get off planet independently. But within the guard itself... they have been a combined force always as far as I am aware in terms of how they are portrayed in the fluff and how they expect to play on the table.

And I think the fluff will move towards more flexible regiments.

sort of opposite of how marine squads are becoming more specialized.

[spafe]

Are you talking about the codex traits/regiment system encouraging more combined stuff?

 

Otherwise if you mean in the background fluff... I guess they could, but would be very surprised if they did as for all the reasons mentioned above... it doesnt make sense.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, spafe said:

Are you talking about the codex traits/regiment system encouraging more combined stuff?

 

Otherwise if you mean in the background fluff... I guess they could, but would be very surprised if they did as for all the reasons mentioned above... it doesnt make sense.

Makes as much sense as space marines reverting to the legion era style of organization.

 

and regiments that are likely to be stuck on their own may need more flexibility in the new 40k

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The new codex confirms that combined arms regiments are a thing now, though still not the norm.

[jarms48]

There always was some combined regiments Krieg and Cadia had them. Typically they were the 2 regimentum that were allowed to do them on a semi-frequent basis. Other regimentum could have them, but would need to be specifically ordered to create them or be formed from combining multiple damaged regiments. Just to clarify GW has specific stated that regimentum refers to the planet. So Cadian regimentum refers to regiments from Cadia. While regiment is the units themselves.

 

Even then, as I said, combined arms also exists at the regimental level as well. If a tank regiment and infantry regiment are working together. Then they'll still be divided into smaller units supporting each other. 

[Tallarn Commander]

Games Workshop is probably retconning regiments towards combined arms and away from the single-purpose regiment concept that they introduced in the 3rd IG Codex:

"In the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, massive changes were made to the forces of the Imperium. To prevent the possibility of large scale rebellion occurring again, the titanic armies of the Imperial forces were divided. The Space Marine Legions were split into chapters. The Imperial Army as it was ceased to exist. The link between fleet and army was severed-never again would ground commanders be given control over interstellar ships. From its ashes were born the Imperial Navy and the Imperial Guard. The Imperial Guard was organized into smaller units known as regiments, and centrally trained commisars were universally introduced to watch out for disloyalty. The inter-dependence of the newly formed Imperial Guard, the most numerous of the Emperor's troops, ensured that should a regiment turn against their oaths they would not be able to spread their treachery beyond a single world, and should a Navy fleet Mutant they would not be able to resupply or deploy ground troops..."

"An Imperial Guard Regiment is largely uniform in its composition. Infantry regiments, for example, are unlikely to include much or any heavy artillery whilst tank regiments contain little or no infantry. Success requires Imperial Guard Regiments to work together. Whilst this inter-dependence might at first seem like an inherent weakness, it is a necessary precaution. Should a regiment rebel against the Emperor, the traitors will not have access to the supporting units needed to prose ute a full-scale war. When the Ocacan XV Infantry declared its allegiance to the Ruinous Powers of Chaos it had little in the way of either heavy armor or artillery support and was unable to compete against the 'combined arms' forces of the Cadian 17th Armoured and the Elysian 110th Drop-Troop regiments sent to eliminate them."

-2008 IG Codex, page, 6 and 8

Edited November 26, 2022 by Tallarn Commander
Spelling error

[jarms48]

Yeah, but even this doesn’t mean zero combined arms. It’s just at a higher operational level. I think that’s the main thing people don’t seem to understand. 
 

Regiments deploy in battlegroups. So all that means is there’s likely a general coordinating the deployment of units with the regiment commanders. Which then assign platoons or companies to work together.

 

That’s still combined arms. 

[sairence]

The way I read the description of regiments in the codex is that they're for the most part exactly that...uniform formations, specialised on a certain type of warfare. Infantry, mech, armoured, siege, recon were some of the examples the book showcases. Sure, you get some that are a bit more mixed, but most are geared towards a certain style. That doesn't mean you can't have different types of regiments from the same planets. Cadians can come in tank regiments as well as infantry, mechanised, airborne or whatever regiments.

 

These regiments are then split and combined into mixed forces based on the needs of the warzone, command requests and availability. Sometimes whole regiments get deployed, but often you also have individual units seconded to other part of the army. And that's how you get your combined arms forces. 

 

That's all in the book and was fun to read through, but didn't strike me as anything new that we wouldn't have had before.

 

The big split after the heresy, which is still very much maintained, was that the Legions didn't get their regular human forces anymore and that the army was strictly split into the Guard and the Navy.

Edited November 26, 2022 by sairence
Forgot something

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

7 hours ago, jarms48 said:

Yeah, but even this doesn’t mean zero combined arms. It’s just at a higher operational level. I think that’s the main thing people don’t seem to understand. 
 

Regiments deploy in battlegroups. So all that means is there’s likely a general coordinating the deployment of units with the regiment commanders. Which then assign platoons or companies to work together.

 

That’s still combined arms. 

This is why in always thought the mono-role regiments restriction was stupid(but stupid is the imperium’s trademark).

a combined arms regiment, even the larger ones with something like 20-30 companies wouldn’t be capable of a ‘large scale’ rebellion.

they might easily hold a world for a bit but even if the rebellion were to include fleet elements they’d never be able to spread out and conquer other worlds.

 

large scale rebellion would only happen warmaster or lord commander level where you have a dozen or more regiments, and already have loyalty from major fleet elements any way.

 

And no one said that regiments working together wasn’t combined arms. The discussion is about individual regiments being combined arms. 
You’d be hard pressed to say an infantry regiment is a combined arms regiment if it happens to have a hydra platoon and a sentinel platoon in it.

 

whereas this new lore seems to be setting up regiments that are created from the start as combined arms regiments, along with regiments that get mixed together to become combined arms like the valhallan regiment they mentioned.

 

Edited November 26, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Closet Skeleton]

The point of the split regiments isn't some kind of fool proof protection against large rebellions, its so if an artillery regiment rebels it won't be able to defend itself against a loyal infantry regiment while a rebellious infantry regiment can be shelled by loyal artillery. They don't want a regiment with its own hydras because they want the option of calling down airstrikes on their own troops and they want their troops to be constantly aware of the possibility that their leaders will call an airstrike down on them for any reason.

 

The Imperium is a paranoid, oppressive state with no value on human life. Rebellions aren't just chaos corruption, they're refusing orders for suicide missions. That's why they're scared of independent formations, they aren't just scared of actual threats, they want the ability to obliterate their own forces at any hint of insubordination. Sometimes 'rebellion' means a guy on the ground has a plan to actually win a battle that conflicts with a higher up's ideal on how to manage the whole front. Modern militaries often allow that sort of thing to great success, the Imperium considers that almost as bad as full blown heresy and set up their forces to make it impossible on purpose. Splitting regiments doesn't mean there isn't any authority at a combined arms level its actually to increase that individual's absolute authority so that if he so chooses, he can order all those combined elements to systematically obliterate each other with each lower level officer knowing that they have no option to refuse because doing so will only change the order of their demise.

 

Sending guardsmen to die is the departmento munitorum's job. They don't care about the military effectiveness of any individual group, they're barely concerned with the success of whole campaigns. Ultimate military command in the Imperium rests entirely on the logistical, bureaucratic level. There are no arms to combine, just numbers on spread sheets.

 

Grim dark isn't about obtaining some kind of mature gritty tone, its a form of satire, an exageration that represents a real experience of the world through unreality.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Closet Skeleton said:

The point of the split regiments isn't some kind of fool proof protection against large rebellions, its so if an artillery regiment rebels it won't be able to defend itself against a loyal infantry regiment while a rebellious infantry regiment can be shelled by loyal artillery. They don't want a regiment with its own hydras because they want the option of calling down airstrikes on their own troops and they want their troops to be constantly aware of the possibility that their leaders will call an airstrike down on them for any reason.

 

The Imperium is a paranoid, oppressive state with no value on human life. Rebellions aren't just chaos corruption, they're refusing orders for suicide missions. That's why they're scared of independent formations, they aren't just scared of actual threats, they want the ability to obliterate their own forces at any hint of insubordination. Sometimes 'rebellion' means a guy on the ground has a plan to actually win a battle that conflicts with a higher up's ideal on how to manage the whole front. Modern militaries often allow that sort of thing to great success, the Imperium considers that almost as bad as full blown heresy and set up their forces to make it impossible on purpose. Splitting regiments doesn't mean there isn't any authority at a combined arms level its actually to increase that individual's absolute authority so that if he so chooses, he can order all those combined elements to systematically obliterate each other with each lower level officer knowing that they have no option to refuse because doing so will only change the order of their demise.

 

Sending guardsmen to die is the departmento munitorum's job. They don't care about the military effectiveness of any individual group, they're barely concerned with the success of whole campaigns. Ultimate military command in the Imperium rests entirely on the logistical, bureaucratic level. There are no arms to combine, just numbers on spread sheets.

 

Grim dark isn't about obtaining some kind of mature gritty tone, its a form of satire, an exageration that represents a real experience of the world through unreality.

Yeah and a mixed regiment wouldn’t be able to defend itself from a suppression force, unless that mixed regiment was absolutely massive.