Revisiting Raven Guard

[9x19 Parabellum]

Hello fellow lurkers in the Spire.

 

I'm revisiting my Raven Guard after several years of them being on the shelf - not because they are/were bad, but because I got distracted with new armies to build and paint: Tau, Sororitas, Black Templar and Craftworld.  I want to add a few units and explore what makes them so D Tier exactly.  I don't see much in the way of a recent tactics thread on them.  I understand they probably won't be A tier until they get a rework, but I wanted to see how to best maximize their usage.

 

It should be noted up front that, except for 1 unit of Vanguard Vets, my Raven Guard are a Primaris-only army.  I just can't deal with mixing the aesthetics and scales...it's jarring to me.  What do you guys think the best way to play RG is?   What units do you think work best in RG army?  Has AoC changed the playstyle?  

 

Have any of you guys been playing Nephilim missions with them?  I was thinking about trying to build an army around "Secure or Sabotage", with maybe 2 Incursor units with Haywire mines and liberal use of the "Deadly Prize" stratagem, to try to make opponents really pay for getting on objectives. 

 

[duz_]

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with! 

 

What's your current army roster? I am also considering going predominantly Primaris with my RG at some point. The dual infiltrator kit seems to be a good one for troops. 

AoC I believe has helped, but likely more is required. 

 

Unfortunately I haven't played a game in over a year so I can add too much valuable discussion. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

Hey Duz!

 

My inventory is as follows:

 

CHARACTERS:

Shrike, Jump Pack Capt (with magentizeable weapons), Primaris Libby, Phobos Libby, Phobos Captain, Gravis Captain, 3 various lieutenants on foot, 

 

TROOPS:

10x Intercessors with Bolt Rifle

10x Intercessors with Bolt Rifle

5 Incursors (not yet painted)

5 Incursors (not yet painted)

5 Infiltrators (not yet painted)

 

ELITES:

Invictor Warsuit with autocannon

Red Dread with Plasma, gatling, storm bolters

Deredo Dread with anvillus autocannon battery

10x Vanguard Vets with various weapon loadouts

6x Aggressors with max dakka

Apothecary

Primaris Ancient

 

 

FAST ATTACK:

3 bikes magnetized but currently only with triple grav.

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

10x Hellblasters

Repulsors with magnetized weapons

2x3 Eliminators units with bolt sniper rifles

 

DEDICATED TRANSPORT:

Land Speeder Storm

 

So one of the things that I'm trying to figure out is why RG are in such a tough place.

-Our chapter tactic is not horrible; pretty average I'd say.

-Our superdoctrine is not great, but I play Black Templar too and the vows are similarly situational at best.

-Our warlord traits are actually pretty good.

-Our relics are overall meh, but I definitely think there's some play into the Ebon Claws and the Jump Pack.

-Umbramancy is pretty underwhelming. Enveloping Darkness has some use but that's about it.

-lack of Secondaries is unfortunate but I think Secure or Sabotage for Nephilim is pretty good.

Edited November 29, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[jpwyrm]

Here's my thoughts on why we struggle so much:

 

- Chapter Tactics : not great and overshadowed by more recent codex/factions that do the same as us but better. Smaller table hurt us on both abilities which sucks;

- Super doctrine : This one is either great (agains Knights and character dependent factions for instance) or almost useless. Overall, it's sad that the Super Doctrine is so dependant on the opponent's list;

- Warlord Traits : I agree with you there, we have some pretty decent traits and some bad ones too. 

- Relics : our relics are not very good honestly. Ebon Claws would be nice if they were less swingy. Raven's Fury can be replaced with a Warlord Trait that will affect multiple units and for 1 CP, you can reroll your charge when you really need it thanks to Raven Blades Stratagem. Speaking of which...;

- Stratagems : there are a couple of stratagems that are nice and usefull, but they're so few! We have plenty of option to protect our units at Range and rapidly close the distances with ennemy units but virtually nothing to help us deal with said units either at range or in close combat. Also, Nephilim's CP reduction has hampered a lot of our ability to take advantage of  our good stratagems (SftS and Infiltrate mainly) in favor for in game CP return which we don't have much use for if we only look at RG specific stratagems;

- Umbramancy : yeah, Envelopping Darkness and Shadowstep are the only okay powers. Spectral Blade has it's place if you want to build a melee Phobos Librarian, but why bother?

- Secure and Sabotage is the only thing that redeems our Chapter and Successors in Nephilim IMO. This is one of the best secondaries available to marines player.

[SyNidus]

It's funny you started this topic. I've been thinking of restarting/rebuilding my RG from the ground up. I'm also looking to do something similar with going for a primaris build (with the exception of Vanguard Vets, even that I have plans for using reivers as the base model and giving them jump packs and thunder hammers).

From your collection, are you considering adding some impulsors? I think those would be pretty useful for ferrying your big intercessor squads around.


 

[9x19 Parabellum]

3 hours ago, SyNidus said:

It's funny you started this topic. I've been thinking of restarting/rebuilding my RG from the ground up. I'm also looking to do something similar with going for a primaris build (with the exception of Vanguard Vets, even that I have plans for using reivers as the base model and giving them jump packs and thunder hammers).

From your collection, are you considering adding some impulsors? I think those would be pretty useful for ferrying your big intercessor squads around.

 

Hey SyNidus, thanks for the comment!

 

The problem with the Impulsor is that it doesn't, in fact, ferry big intercessor squads around. It only ferrys min sized ones around :-(

 

No vehicles really until GW figures out how to make space marine vehicles decent. I already have a repulsor that I added to my RG back in 8th edition and it's only ever seen one game. It literally, and I do mean literally, has dust on it. 

 

Tonight I played a game against a buddy's Deathwatch army of reknown.

 

My list was:

Jump Pack Captain (chapter master, ebonclaws, imperium sword, swift and deadly; -3 cp)

Primaris Librarian (chief libby, null zone, might of heroes, pyschic fortress, master of ambush; -1 cp)

 

5 incursors (haywire)

5 infiltrators (helix gauntlet)

10 intercessors (bolt rifles, 2x grenades, power sword)

 

5 scouts, camo cloaks

1 redread (macro plasma, irp, ogc, 2x sb)

1 invictor (autocannon)

6 aggressors (full dakka)

 

3 eliminators with bolt sniper rifles

3 eliminators with bolt sniper rifles

10 hellblasters with heavy plasma rifles

 

1 land speeder storm

 

His list, as best I can remember (not super familiar with deathwatch):

-jump captain with some really good xenophase sword

-chaplain on bike with master of sanctity

-primaris librarian (can't remember powers)

 

a 10 man combat squad:

-5 terminators (3 missiles, 3 chainfists)

-5 veterans (power swords?)

 

10 man squad: 5 hellblasters and 5 intercessors

 

10 man combat squad:

-4 eliminators + infiltrator with helix gauntlet

-5 eliminators

 

10 man squad: 2 inceptors with double plasma, 4 aggressors full dakka, 4 heavy intercessors with hellstorm

 

6 man veteran vanguard squad: jump packs, 2 heavy thunder hammers, 4x dual lightning claws.

 

I think that's everything.

Secondaries: oaths, secure or sabotage, shock tactics.
I deployed cagey with my shooting stuff but claimed center with my incursors, aggressors on the line.

Won roll off and infiltrated aggressors into 1st turn charge onto his eliminator unit.

He concededed turn 4 (pressed for time) but the final score would have looked something like 66-42.

 

It was a fun game but both armies felt very meh.  Our chapter tactic really is kinda junky. Doesn't seem to come into play very often on the smaller tables of 9th edition.

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[XeonDragon]

Re: space marine transports. I agree, they generally suck. That said, I've found that Razorbacks with twin las cannons in successor chapters with master artisan are surprisingly reliable and under-estimated. Oh, and drop pods. Drop pods are OK. 

 

I like how you took heavy hellblasters. I think the S9, high AP and flat 3 damage makes them a real sleeper. If baneblades or multiple T8/9 vehicle spam becomes a thing, a can see merit in a little "nest" of heavy hellblasters with an apothecary, an ancient (so they can shoot when they die, then come back to life again!), and a chaplain to give them +1 to wound :) 

[jpwyrm]

8 hours ago, XeonDragon said:

Re: space marine transports. I agree, they generally suck. That said, I've found that Razorbacks with twin las cannons in successor chapters with master artisan are surprisingly reliable and under-estimated. Oh, and drop pods. Drop pods are OK. 

 

I like how you took heavy hellblasters. I think the S9, high AP and flat 3 damage makes them a real sleeper. If baneblades or multiple T8/9 vehicle spam becomes a thing, a can see merit in a little "nest" of heavy hellblasters with an apothecary, an ancient (so they can shoot when they die, then come back to life again!), and a chaplain to give them +1 to wound :) 

I agree, firstborn transports are ok, it's the Primaris ones that are lacking.

 

I'm not sure the hellblaster bomb is worth the points investment to be honest. It relies on a lot of external buffes and the heavy plasmas incinerators with only one shot are so underwhelming, even against T8-9 targets. With so few shots, heavy melta rifles on eradicators would be a lot more effective and then the minimum damage is equivalent to overheated heavy plasma, with the possibility of doing up to 5 more damage per shot depending on the roll. It gets even better if the squad is at half range. Might be worth considering 10 assault variant hellblasters and 5-6 Eradicators with heavy melta rifles - now you get what you need for Baneblade/Astraeus equivalent and a unit that can drown anything in high AP shots. You just need to make sur you can protect them from melee threats...

[9x19 Parabellum]

33 minutes ago, jpwyrm said:

I agree, firstborn transports are ok, it's the Primaris ones that are lacking.

 

I'm not sure the hellblaster bomb is worth the points investment to be honest. It relies on a lot of external buffes and the heavy plasmas incinerators with only one shot are so underwhelming, even against T8-9 targets. With so few shots, heavy melta rifles on eradicators would be a lot more effective and then the minimum damage is equivalent to overheated heavy plasma, with the possibility of doing up to 5 more damage per shot depending on the roll. It gets even better if the squad is at half range. Might be worth considering 10 assault variant hellblasters and 5-6 Eradicators with heavy melta rifles - now you get what you need for Baneblade/Astraeus equivalent and a unit that can drown anything in high AP shots. You just need to make sur you can protect them from melee threats...

 

I agree with all this, but I'm not going to chase the meta.  I built most of my RG army back in the days of 8th, so I have a lot of "old" units:  Aggressors, Hellblasters, Intercessors with Bolt Rifles.   I played with what I had.  The Hellblasters were underwhelming, but not terrible.   Str 9, 3 damage does do work.  Even the psychological threat is useful.  Those hellblasters, combined with the threat of null zone on my Librarian, kept his Terminators honest.  At 36", they synergize nicely with the range of Eliminators and the Red Dread's macro plasma.   His job is to Wisdom of the Ancients every turn so the Slaughtermachine (aka, Chapter master) can go kill without worrying about the backfield.  13 damage-3 plasma shots (10 from the hellblasters and avg 3 from the dread), rerolling 1's to hit, would have murdered the terminator squad the second they poked their head out.   Really, that particular combo was built-in in case I faced this opponent's 1ksons SOT's, since he likes to run 2 units of them and I can't have them running around with their 4++ from the psychic power.  But they work on Deathwatch Terminators too :-)

[duz_]

14 hours ago, SyNidus said:

It's funny you started this topic. I've been thinking of restarting/rebuilding my RG from the ground up. I'm also looking to do something similar with going for a primaris build (with the exception of Vanguard Vets, even that I have plans for using reivers as the base model and giving them jump packs and thunder hammers).

 

 

I find it amusing many of us in the Ravenspire and considering this. Is the push for Primaris because it would seem the writing is on the wall for first born, or because the Phobos marines really play to our chapter, especially now we have lost Scouts as troops? 

 

For me personally I think it's a little bit of both. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

35 minutes ago, duz_ said:

 

 

I find it amusing many of us in the Ravenspire and considering this. Is the push for Primaris because it would seem the writing is on the wall for first born, or because the Phobos marines really play to our chapter, especially now we have lost Scouts as troops? 

 

For me personally I think it's a little bit of both. 

 

heya Duz!

 

For me personally, it didn't start like that, but I'm happy to continue it for those reasons.

At the end of 7th edition, I wanted a small Allied Detachment for my Blood Angels.  Raven Guard's Chapter Tactic was to be able to use their jump packs in both the Move and Charge phase, which I liked, and the aesthetics: Red and Gold for BA's, Black and Red (3rd company) for my RG.

 

This is where my B&C handle comes from: 9x19.

 

So I had a small allied detachment of RG, mostly used for my Assault Squad and Vanguard Vets.

 

When 8th launched, and Primaris Came out, I decided to continue with Raven Guard using the new line.  I decided after a few units that I didn't like the scale or aesthetic differences between old and new Marines...it really bothered me. So I shelved my junior marines.  Later into 8th, Iron Hands supplement came out and I decided that with little work, I could convert my baby Raven Guard marines into a new force, and thus I converted them all to Iron Hands.  The only units I couldn't be bothered to convert and switch over (because they were so essential) was my Vanguard Vets with Jump Packs, who stayed RG, a few characters, along with my scout squad and my Land Speeder Storm.  (Scout scale differences didn't bother me because they weren't "full" Marines yet so the fact that they were smaller didn't jar me.)

 

Now that Horus Heresy has launched, I'll continue to only collect my Iron Hands using models that can be utilized with HH; they will slowly phase out of the 40k build paradigm and become HH. If GW pulls the plug on "old Marines" for 40k, I will still have them to be used in HH.

RG, on the other hand, I will only build out as a Primaris force, going forward.

Edited December 2, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[SyNidus]

On 12/2/2022 at 10:37 PM, duz_ said:

 

 

I find it amusing many of us in the Ravenspire and considering this. Is the push for Primaris because it would seem the writing is on the wall for first born, or because the Phobos marines really play to our chapter, especially now we have lost Scouts as troops? 

 

For me personally I think it's a little bit of both. 

Lol, I actually really like the aesthetic of phobos marines. So I might actually consider getting that Ravenstrike boxset...

[9x19 Parabellum]

I do too, SyNidus. I didn't at first but they have grown on me.

[duz_]

At the very least Reiver heads are awesome for kit bashes! 

 

I had one TO let me use them as Infiltrators. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

See that's funny, because to me, the Reiver heads are derpy as all hell and I cannot stand them.  They look like goofy Ronald McDonald clown faces.

 

I have swapped out all my infiltrator and incursor heads for beakie helmets anyway.

 

So a recent though I've been having is running my guys as a successor chapter and leaning into "knowledge is power" and running some librarian heavy stuff.

Edited December 10, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[9x19 Parabellum]

Well I got my teeth kicked in last night by 1k sons. (1k points).

 

Ahriman, Infernal Master on Tzeentch, 2x5 rubics w/ soulreaper, 2x5 SoC w/ hellfyre racks, and 3 spawn.

 

I had Chapter Master with jump pack, ebonclaws, imperium sword, 1x10 intercessors, 1x5 incursors, 1x5 dakka aggressors, 5 scouts, land speeder storm, and 2x3 eliminators. 

[SyNidus]

7 hours ago, 9x19 Parabellum said:

Well I got my teeth kicked in last night by 1k sons. (1k points).

 

Ahriman, Infernal Master on Tzeentch, 2x5 rubics w/ soulreaper, 2x5 SoC w/ hellfyre racks, and 3 spawn.

 

I had Chapter Master with jump pack, ebonclaws, imperium sword, 1x10 intercessors, 1x5 incursors, 1x5 dakka aggressors, 5 scouts, land speeder storm, and 2x3 eliminators. 

Ouch…well, time to sharpen those claws.

 

What happened during the game?

what were things which worked well from your army/tactics?

what were things you would change?