Murderous strike only on successful wounds, or any that meet the roll?

[Xenith]

As per the title, does the wound roll with a Murderous strike weapon need to actually wound the target using the chart to actually trigger the strike, or is the Murderour strike essentially an auto-wound on a roll that beats the Murderous strike value? Normally I'd say it has to also wound, however the Murderous Strike rule "cause Instant Death..." They dont gain the Instant Death special rule or anything, RAW they just flat out cause instant death.

 

The instance I'm thinking of, last night we had Corswain in combat with a Leviathan - normally he needs a 6 to wound with S6 v T8, however he has murderous strike (4+!). Do his attacks inflict Instant Death on a 4+ to wound, or a 6+ to wound? 

 

Murderous Strike:

"Attacks with this special rule cause Instant Death on a To Wound roll equal to the number in brackets associated with the specific rule. Roll any viable saves against this instant death causing wound separately and before any other wounds this attack inflicts."

 

Instant Death

"If a model suffers an unsaves wound from an attack with this special rule, it is reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a casualty."

 

On another note, it takes going back to 6th ed to really appreciate the efforts put into writing clear rules in 9th edition! 

[Stitch5000]

Murderous Strike only causes Instant Death on succesful To Wound rolls bases on S/T, otherwise it would be MENTAL.  

[Xenith]

Yea, that's how I know it should be, but was lacking the actual wording to make it a sealed deal. The way Murderous Strike is worded makes it seems like a different mechanic to a weapon with the instant death rule. 

 

It seemed powerful, but then again, it was Corswain...

[Valkyrion]

I think I agree with Stitch but it's not worded very well.

Whilst you have technically made a To Wound roll of 4+, you haven't To Wound Rolled successfully against the target you are trying To Wound, if that makes sense.

 

I can see an argument for both interpretations, but instant deathing primarchs and dreadnoughts on 4+ is unlikely to be the intention, surely. 

[Angel of Solitude]

The Atomantic Deflector prevents Dreadnoughts from being instant death'd, and Primarchs have Eternal Warrior, so this wouldn't be the case.

 

But in terms of the original question, the Terranic Greatsword is a helpful example here - it has both Rending (5+) and Murderous Strike (5+), so if you roll a 5 to wound, then it automatically wounds regardless of toughness, and Instant Death also triggers. Corswain's The Blade only has Murderous Strike. 

[Stitch5000]

Murderous Strike (X)

"Attacks with this special rule cause Instant Death on a To Wound roll equal to or greater than the number listed in brackets associated with the specific rule. Roll any viable Saves against this Instant Death-causing Wound separately and before any other Wounds the attack inflicts."

 

Rending (X)

 

"...For each To Wound roll equal to or higher than the value listed, the target automatically suffers a Wound, regardless of its Toughness...."

 

I would say the omission of the underlined word should make it fairly clear that these rules have differing effects. 

[Xenith]

I agree with the above. I think e have to interpret it akin to Breaching, where you still have to successfully wound, unlike rending which specifically states regardless of toughness.

 

27 minutes ago, Angel of Solitude said:

The Atomantic Deflector prevents Dreadnoughts from being instant death'd, and Primarchs have Eternal Warrior, so this wouldn't be the case.

 

Dreads still suffer D3 wounds under the atomantic deflector, so Corswain is easily capable of rolling 3x 4 plusses on the wound rolls which would be 3d3 damage to the Leviathan, likely killing it, if it already had a wound knocked off somewhere.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Following the sequence the rule sets out, if corswain rules a 4 to wound against a dreadnought then that attack would gain the instant death benefit, but you still need to compare the strength to the toughness to see if it has wounded successfully; if not, it is discarded. The wound value is just a standard interaction and doesn't need to be called out. Same with breaching.

 

Compare them as stitch did to rending. This does have a specific call out that when you roll the value to get AP 2, that roll will now automatically wound. 

[Cactus]

44 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Following the sequence the rule sets out, if corswain rules a 4 to wound against a dreadnought then that attack would gain the instant death benefit, but you still need to compare the strength to the toughness to see if it has wounded successfully; if not, it is discarded. The wound value is just a standard interaction and doesn't need to be called out. Same with breaching.

 

Compare them as stitch did to rending. This does have a specific call out that when you roll the value to get AP 2, that roll will now automatically wound. 

I agree. The Instant Death rule says the target needs to suffer an unsaved wound. If you didn't roll high enough to wound, or the wound was saved, Instant Death will do nothing.

[Xenith]

Awesome, thanks folks - I knew it worked that way, but the hazy wording threw me off and wanted to check. 

[TheNineteenth]

On 11/29/2022 at 5:32 AM, Valkyrion said:

I think I agree with Stitch but it's not worded very well.

Whilst you have technically made a To Wound roll of 4+, you haven't To Wound Rolled successfully against the target you are trying To Wound, if that makes sense.

 

I can see an argument for both interpretations, but instant deathing primarchs and dreadnoughts on 4+ is unlikely to be the intention, surely. 

Is not one immune to ID and the other has a special d3 wound proviso in lieu?

[Xenith]

 

On 12/2/2022 at 7:43 PM, TheNineteenth said:

Is not one immune to ID and the other has a special d3 wound proviso in lieu?

 

Indeedy, it's been mentioned above - for this game we played as it the murder strike auto-wounded (for D3 wounds due to the deflector), it would be more fun for my opponent in an already unbalanced match. He's also come from 40k where anything can hurt anything and is making some questionable target choices, like corswain into a claw leviathan, so I let it slide., much more cinematic to have corswain chopping dreads in half. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Xenith