Shrouded against instant Death

[HeinzD]

Hey you guys, little rules question. Im pretty sure you cant take a shrouded roll to ignore a wound with instant death.

Shrouded states: "This is a Damage mitigation roll" and Instant death states that: "no Damage mitigation rolls may be taken against wounds caused with instant death", Weapons that have double the power then the targets toughness gain the instant death special rule.

All things considered, you shouldnt be able to take shrouded rolls, like evade, against instant death attacks.

Yet i see battle reports on youtube take shrouded saves against las cannon attacks or such all the time, be it via the evade reaction or something like the grave wardens shrouded in death.

Are they simply doing something wrong, which could be, since the rules are pretty new, or am i missing something, that lets you make shrouded rolls against something like a lascannon, even though its a damage mitigation roll?

[Stitch5000]

Where does it state that "no Damage mitigation rolls may be taken against wounds caused with instant death"?

I can't find that sequence of words anywhere in the Rulebook?

[Bung]

33 minutes ago, Stitch5000 said:

Where does it state that "no Damage mitigation rolls may be taken against wounds caused with instant death"?

I can't find that sequence of words anywhere in the Rulebook?

 

Its in the Feel No Pain rule.

 

At this point we have 2 sources for Damage Motivation Rolls, Shrouded and Feel no Pain.

 

Both can be made as an additional save against wounds, but FnP has an exception written in their rules that the save doesnt work against Instant Death.

 

 

[Stitch5000]

Feel No Pain (X) says "Feel No Pain rolls may not be taken against unsaved Wounds that have the Instant Death special rule."

 

And "This is a Damage Mitigation roll – any model may make only a single Damage Mitigation roll of any type for any given Wound (see page 174)."

174 says:

"Damage Mitigation Rolls

Some models may also have a special rule that grants a Damage Mitigation roll, such as Feel No Pain or Shrouded. These rolls may be made even if a model has already failed a save of any kind, or was unable to make a save due to the AP value of an attack or the effect of another special rule. If a save is failed, a model with a Damage Mitigation roll may attempt to use that roll to negate an unsaved Wound. However, no model may attempt more than a single Damage Mitigation roll against any given unsaved Wound inflicted on it. In cases where a model has more than one Damage Mitigation roll available, the controlling player selects one to use whenever called upon to make a Damage Mitigation roll."

[HeinzD]

Dont have the rule book avaiable at this exact moment, but i believe there is a line in the explanation of instant death, where it says that, if a weapon has double the strengh of the targets toughness it gets instant death and that no damage mitigation rolls may be made against attacks of that kind and since shrouded states its a damage mitigation roll i dont think its possible, which is weird, since feel no pain especially states it doesnt work against instant death and shrouded doesnt against ignore cover, which is weird.

Think im kinda missing something

[Lost2Requiem]

The Special Rule text on page 242 for Instant Death features no reference to Damage Mitigation rolls. 
 

The Instant Death box-out on page 172 for Instant Death features an explanation of double Str vs Toughness but no reference to Damage Mitigation rolls. 
 

Aside from the Feel No Pain reference mentioned above, there is nothing I can see referencing Instant Death and Damage Mitigation rolls related to Shrouded. 

[Xenith]

13 minutes ago, HeinzD said:

Dont have the rule book avaiable at this exact moment,

 

Best to get back and check it then!

 

My book has no reference to damage mitigation rolls under instant death.

Shrouded says nothing about instant death

Feel no pain says it cannot be taken against instant death wounds. 

 

So yes, you can make shrouded saves against ID wounds, in the UK English version of the book. 

14 minutes ago, HeinzD said:

Think im kinda missing something

 

Yea, the rule book! 

[Lord Marshal]

Adding to what people have said, I think it makes sense Rules as Intended that Shrouded would protect against ID since it's meant to represent them being difficult to hit in the first place (and there being other rules which mitigate it). 

[Stitch5000]

1 hour ago, HeinzD said:

Dont have the rule book avaiable at this exact moment, but i believe there is a line in the explanation of instant death, where it says that, if a weapon has double the strengh of the targets toughness it gets instant death and that no damage mitigation rolls may be made against attacks of that kind and since shrouded states its a damage mitigation roll i dont think its possible, which is weird, since feel no pain especially states it doesnt work against instant death and shrouded doesnt against ignore cover, which is weird.

Think im kinda missing something

It doesn't, the rules are literally copied verbatim from the PDF versions in the posts I have made. I have searched said PDFs for the phrases you have used in your comments and they do not exist. 

WIthout biting your head off and being a curmudgeon, it is SUPER important to actually read rules form their source, in their entirety, before you spend time on these discussions.  Even more so now as there are some subtle differences between this edition and the last, that woul;d be easy to conflate if assumptions are made. 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Shrouded and Feel No Pain are both damage mitigation rolls, but are specifically different. There are weapons and abilities that ignore Shrouded, but it's not negated by Instant Death. There are also things that cancel out Feel No Pain, like Instant Death, but are not affected by things that cancel out Shrouded, such as Infra Visors.
They are distinctly separate.