The case for the field ordnance battery (FOB)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I know a lot of people think they're not worth the 130 points, and I agree they could and probably should come down a bit, but I will make an argument for them as they are, at least for the bombast guns anyway.

at 130pts they're 10 pts cheaper than the basilisk.
bas-minimum shots4 maximum9

FOB-minimum shots 2 maximum 12

bas- 11W

FOB-12W total

yes it will be easier to wound the FOB vs the basilisk and the FOB's guns aren't as strong, but the FOB does not have a degrading profile, at least not until you wipe one whole gun off the board.

So while I think they are a bit over priced, I'd say it's not so bad as many seem to think it is, and in the end depending on what you're playing I do think the FOB may be the better option.

[Brother Tyler]

When I see "FOB" I think of a forward operating base and (relative) safety. I'm pretty sure you're talking about something else. Please spell it out either in the title or the first appearance in your post for ignorami like me so that we know what you're really talking about.

[FelipeFlops]

35 minutes ago, Brother Tyler said:

When I see "FOB" I think of a forward operating base and (relative) safety. I'm pretty sure you're talking about something else. Please spell it out either in the title or the first appearance in your post for ignorami like me so that we know what you're really talking about.

 

Agree, my mind goes to the same place, take me a couple of seconds to 'translate' to Field Ordinance Battery. 

 

6 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I know a lot of people think they're not worth the 130 points, and I agree they could and probably should come down a bit, but I will make an argument for them as they are, at least for the bombast guns anyway.

at 130pts they're 10 pts cheaper than the basilisk.
bas-minimum shots4 maximum9

FOB-minimum shots 2 maximum 12

bas- 11W

FOB-12W total

yes it will be easier to wound the FOB vs the basilisk and the FOB's guns aren't as strong, but the FOB does not have a degrading profile, at least not until you wipe one whole gun off the board.

So while I think they are a bit over priced, I'd say it's not so bad as many seem to think it is, and in the end depending on what you're playing I do think the FOB may be the better option.

 

I think I would seriously consider them more at maybe 55pts per base. But where they currently are, I would much prefer the Basilisk.

[Emperor Ming]

I would disagree with you guys atm, the FOB is a hot topic in guard circles, as its not only a new unit, its vastly overcosted and is not that great either

 

FOB is obviously to a 40k guard player, field ordinance battery

 

In the context of 40k, there's no such thing in relation to the guard as a forward operating base, unless you're talking about lore, even then that's very specific

[Brother Tyler]

I don't think that anyone is arguing that. In fact, I assumed that most Astra Militarum players would be familiar with the acronym. However, a standard best practice everywhere is to spell out a term before using it as an acronym. Not everyone that comes into a discussion will be well-versed in the specialized language and terms of any particular group/sub-group, so this is simply a matter of courtesy and clear communication.

[TCC]

The FOB can be made to deal more damage than the Basilisk, can be hidden in a building and is why I’m trying them out. 
 

I’m going to order mine each turn to take aim +1 BS +1AP and use my MoO to re-roll 1’s.

 

You can also add in Creed to give +1 strength but I could not justify the points costs. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I’d also point out the larger footprint zones out deep strikes better as well.

[mertbl]

They are wierd. Not vehicles, not infantry, not core. Not sure what role they fill.  

[Emperor Ming]

45 minutes ago, mertbl said:

They are wierd. Not vehicles, not infantry, not core. Not sure what role they fill.  

Very weird since gw generally makes new units good, these are anything but

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

Very weird since gw generally makes new units good, these are anything but

i wouldn't say they're anything but good. 
malleus rocket launcher will absolutely wreck hoard armies, put 2 in a unit you're talking minimum 14 shots, w/ a 50% average hit rate, wounding hordes on 2s, ap -1 on GEQs infantry is a pretty big deal, and wounding MEQs on 3s. that is good. are they a bit more expensive than some might like? yes obviously so. Are they way over costed like some marine vehicles are? i do not think so.

if you look at the rogal dorn you'll also see that point for point at its current cost it is not clearly better than 2 leman russes, so maybe they realized people were getting sick of them making the new hotness auto-takes every time a new unit drops. guess we'll have to see what the new WE units look like to determine if this is their new direction going forward, at least for a little bit.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Has anyone done the math hammer on each option?

[Lord_Ikka]

They're a really weird unit in my view. Each weapon is just...ok, without really making them very useful or stand-out. I don't really know what GW was thinking with this unit- they don't have the durability to sit out in the open and try to kill stuff, but only one of the guns has indirect. 

Bombast gun- Best of the lot, with ok AP and D2, which means that it was designed for hitting MEQ, though they are less useful with AoC being a thing. Not as heavy-hitting as an Earthshaker, but cheaper and I can see a possible use for a couple in the backfield hiding on the rear objective and screening out deep strikers with the large base. 

 

Heavy lascannon- Don't really see the point of this one, to be honest. S10 isn't a breakpoint for anti-tank vehicles (S14 is), and while the damage/AP are good, putting the weapon on a T4/6 Wound unit with a 4+ that requires line of sight means that the enemy will take them out first thing. Struggling to figure out a real use for these that couldn't be accomplished in a similar manner with side sponson multi-meltas on a Russ, which itself isn't a great option but still there for 115 points less than the Heavy Lascannon battery.

 

Malleus Rockets- Lots of shots, but the same basic stats as a multi-laser. They're ok, but for the 10 less points than the field battery you can get 3 Scout Sentinels (or 3 Armoured Sentinels for 5 points more) which are tougher, have more wounds, and are much more mobile. You lose out on 2d6 worth of multi-laser shots, but are those shots really worth it? IG isn't hurting for volume of 1 damage, low AP shots, with the Take Aim order giving regular lasguns -1AP. If they had indirect fire, they could be an option alongside mortar squads to just dump lots of saves on the enemy, but right now they aren't, which makes them even worse.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Lord_Ikka

[jarms48]

6 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

i wouldn't say they're anything but good. 
malleus rocket launcher will absolutely wreck hoard armies, put 2 in a unit you're talking minimum 14 shots, w/ a 50% average hit rate, wounding hordes on 2s, ap -1 on GEQs infantry is a pretty big deal, and wounding MEQs on 3s. that is good. are they a bit more expensive than some might like? yes obviously so. Are they way over costed like some marine vehicles are? i do not think so.

 

You need to put these in the open to fire, and for their cost aren't very durable. Average 9.5 shots per gun is nice, but even then it's only killing 4 Ork Boys or 5 Guardsmen. That's with take aim as well.

 

The things that kill the Malleus are:

- Lack of indirect fire. It will likely die the turn after it fires.

- Guard don't really need more anti-infantry weapons. Nearly anything in the codex can do that. 

- No-one is bringing hordes anymore. The most you'll see is 10 model units. GW hates hordes for some reason and is actively removing them and nerfing any unit that remains. 

[Emperor Ming]

There's no point in mathhammer while there 130, none of them will yield returns at that cost

[Lord_Ikka]

38 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

There's no point in mathhammer while there 130, none of them will yield returns at that cost

Even at 55 points, you have to then compare field batteries to heavy weapons teams. 1 unit of field guns is the same as 2 units of heavy weapon teams. Now, field guns get an extra point of Toughness and a better save, but otherwise the stats are the same and unlike my previous comparison to Sentinels, HWTs and field ordnance batteries reside in the same slot. You then have to look at the guns and compare them to see if the field guns are worth the cost for you.

 

Heavy Lascannon- best matchup is the regular old lascannon. You're getting 3 lascannon shots to 2 heavy shots, so that is in favor of the HWT. While the heavy lascannon does go to S10 over S9, unless you are shooting anti-tank weapons at T5/T9 units there is no functional difference in the wounding characteristics of each. The heavy lascannon does win out in AP (unless the lascannon is under Take Aim orders) and damage (d3 + 3 is much better than just a swingy d6), so once you wound you will have a higher likelihood of inflicting more damage. Given that this is probably the weakest of the field battery weapons its fairly a wash for me, but with IG's mediocre shooting you might have a better chance with the more volume, but swingy lascannons.

 

Bombast field gun- I think that the best HWT weapon to compare against the bombast is probably the autocannon (or at least the most similar in profile). The autocannons will win in volume, a straight 6 shots versus the variable d6 shots of the bombast. Strength and damage is the same, but the bombast has one better AP, making pushing through wounds more likely with it than the autocannons. The major difference is the indirect fire of the bombast- hiding and shooting is much better for IG than staying out in the open to get killed. The other option for HWT would be the heavy bolter, which would up the number or shots but looses out in Strength. Here, I think the field guns have an advantage over HWT, the bombast is a better weapon than any comparable weapon in a HWT.

 

Malleus rockets- Going up against mortars, as they are both low AP, d1, volume-fire weapons. Volume of fire goes to the rockets, 6+d6 is more reliable than 3d6 mortar shots. S and AP also go to the rockets, though it is a one point advantage in each (and with AoC, whether AP -1 is worthwhile is debatable). Again, this will come down to indirect fire, because mortars have it and for some reason the rockets don't. While overall the rockets are the objectively better weapon, my opinion is that the mortars will be alive longer to effect the game because they can shoot without being seen. Slight edge to the mortars for me.

 

So for me, again like my previous post, the only field ordnance battery worth the points will be the bombast. I think you can carve out a niche for a single unit of bombast field guns to hide and rain fire onto 2W objective-grabber squads- that is probably the best use I can see for them right now. Of course, if IG does lose their indirect fire bonus like most people are expecting, these will be slightly worse (though still decent if under Take Aim orders), so we'll have to see where that goes. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

They're a really weird unit in my view. Each weapon is just...ok, without really making them very useful or stand-out. I don't really know what GW was thinking with this unit- they don't have the durability to sit out in the open and try to kill stuff, but only one of the guns has indirect. 

Bombast gun- Best of the lot, with ok AP and D2, which means that it was designed for hitting MEQ, though they are less useful with AoC being a thing. Not as heavy-hitting as an Earthshaker, but cheaper and I can see a possible use for a couple in the backfield hiding on the rear objective and screening out deep strikers with the large base. 

 

Heavy lascannon- Don't really see the point of this one, to be honest. S10 isn't a breakpoint for anti-tank vehicles (S14 is), and while the damage/AP are good, putting the weapon on a T4/6 Wound unit with a 4+ that requires line of sight means that the enemy will take them out first thing. Struggling to figure out a real use for these that couldn't be accomplished in a similar manner with side sponson multi-meltas on a Russ, which itself isn't a great option but still there for 115 points less than the Heavy Lascannon battery.

 

Malleus Rockets- Lots of shots, but the same basic stats as a multi-laser. They're ok, but for the 10 less points than the field battery you can get 3 Scout Sentinels (or 3 Armoured Sentinels for 5 points more) which are tougher, have more wounds, and are much more mobile. You lose out on 2d6 worth of multi-laser shots, but are those shots really worth it? IG isn't hurting for volume of 1 damage, low AP shots, with the Take Aim order giving regular lasguns -1AP. If they had indirect fire, they could be an option alongside mortar squads to just dump lots of saves on the enemy, but right now they aren't, which makes them even worse.

You can also give the malleus take aim to make them ap-2 meaning they can actually have an effect on MEQs.

8 hours ago, jarms48 said:

 

You need to put these in the open to fire, and for their cost aren't very durable. Average 9.5 shots per gun is nice, but even then it's only killing 4 Ork Boys or 5 Guardsmen. That's with take aim as well.

 

The things that kill the Malleus are:

- Lack of indirect fire. It will likely die the turn after it fires.

- Guard don't really need more anti-infantry weapons. Nearly anything in the codex can do that. 

- No-one is bringing hordes anymore. The most you'll see is 10 model units. GW hates hordes for some reason and is actively removing them and nerfing any unit that remains. 

I definitely agree it’s stupid they’re not indirect fire, even though they clearly should be.

i also think that the current apathetic attitude towards them might be their saving grace.

 

I’d say that an army with 10, 10 man squads is still a horde army at 1000pts to me personally. 10 10man squads can be as cheap as 650pts, so in a 1000pt game you could easily have 13 10 man squads for 130 troops, and still have room for a few other things in the list.
 

also if you’re running born soldiers malleus is now hands down the best option.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Even at 55 points, you have to then compare field batteries to heavy weapons teams. 1 unit of field guns is the same as 2 units of heavy weapon teams. Now, field guns get an extra point of Toughness and a better save, but otherwise the stats are the same and unlike my previous comparison to Sentinels, HWTs and field ordnance batteries reside in the same slot. You then have to look at the guns and compare them to see if the field guns are worth the cost for you.

 

Heavy Lascannon- best matchup is the regular old lascannon. You're getting 3 lascannon shots to 2 heavy shots, so that is in favor of the HWT. While the heavy lascannon does go to S10 over S9, unless you are shooting anti-tank weapons at T5/T9 units there is no functional difference in the wounding characteristics of each. The heavy lascannon does win out in AP (unless the lascannon is under Take Aim orders) and damage (d3 + 3 is much better than just a swingy d6), so once you wound you will have a higher likelihood of inflicting more damage. Given that this is probably the weakest of the field battery weapons its fairly a wash for me, but with IG's mediocre shooting you might have a better chance with the more volume, but swingy lascannons.

 

Bombast field gun- I think that the best HWT weapon to compare against the bombast is probably the autocannon (or at least the most similar in profile). The autocannons will win in volume, a straight 6 shots versus the variable d6 shots of the bombast. Strength and damage is the same, but the bombast has one better AP, making pushing through wounds more likely with it than the autocannons. The major difference is the indirect fire of the bombast- hiding and shooting is much better for IG than staying out in the open to get killed. The other option for HWT would be the heavy bolter, which would up the number or shots but looses out in Strength. Here, I think the field guns have an advantage over HWT, the bombast is a better weapon than any comparable weapon in a HWT.

 

Malleus rockets- Going up against mortars, as they are both low AP, d1, volume-fire weapons. Volume of fire goes to the rockets, 6+d6 is more reliable than 3d6 mortar shots. S and AP also go to the rockets, though it is a one point advantage in each (and with AoC, whether AP -1 is worthwhile is debatable). Again, this will come down to indirect fire, because mortars have it and for some reason the rockets don't. While overall the rockets are the objectively better weapon, my opinion is that the mortars will be alive longer to effect the game because they can shoot without being seen. Slight edge to the mortars for me.

 

So for me, again like my previous post, the only field ordnance battery worth the points will be the bombast. I think you can carve out a niche for a single unit of bombast field guns to hide and rain fire onto 2W objective-grabber squads- that is probably the best use I can see for them right now. Of course, if IG does lose their indirect fire bonus like most people are expecting, these will be slightly worse (though still decent if under Take Aim orders), so we'll have to see where that goes. 

4 heavy lascannon shots vs 3 lascannon shots.

each gun is 2 shots.

i almost corrected you about mortars lol, I didn’t even realize they went up to S5. Lol

Edited December 4, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Lord_Ikka]

5 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

4 heavy lascannon shots vs 3 lascannon shots.

each gun is 2 shots.

i almost corrected you about mortars lol, I didn’t even realize they went up to S5. Lol

Exactly- each heavy lascannon is 2 shots, and I was comparing the three lascannon HWT to a single base of field guns (if priced lower at 55 points each), which would be two shots.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

21 minutes ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Exactly- each heavy lascannon is 2 shots, and I was comparing the three lascannon HWT to a single base of field guns (if priced lower at 55 points each), which would be two shots.

comparing a single gun to 3 guns isnt exactly a fair comparison.

[jarms48]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

comparing a single gun to 3 guns isnt exactly a fair comparison.

 

It is, cause it's a hypothetical if they were both 55 points. It's about point efficiency. 

[Lord_Ikka]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

comparing a single gun to 3 guns isnt exactly a fair comparison.

It is when they are the same points, which is what others have suggested, and they serve the same function in the same slot.

 

In this case, a HWT of three guns cost 55 points right now, where a field ordnance battery is 130 (which means each individual gun is 65 points), thus the comparison of a single field gun to the three weapons of the HWTs is correct and fair. Comparing the two is exactly what someone should be doing- the weapons have the same uses and they take up the same slot in army lists. 

 

In my mind, there isn't much use for field ordnance batteries right now. The only one that has any real use is the bombast, but otherwise for the other two there are better and cheaper options to get similar effects in the IG armory. Using the bombast in conjunction with some mortar HWTs could get you a decent artillery barrage and backfield screen-out line, as long as you have the terrain to give them cover. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Anyone have the mathhammer for each of the guns?

[jarms48]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Anyone have the mathhammer for each of the guns?

 

Bombast:

Spoiler

Against Guardsmen, no Take Aim:

 

Against Guardsmen, with Take Aim:

 

Against Marines with AoC, no Take Aim:

 

Against Marines with AoC, with Take Aim:

 

So 130 points with the Bombast kills 4 guardsmen on average with take aim, or 2 marines on average with take aim.

 

 Malleus rocket launcher:

Spoiler

Against Guardsmen, no Take Aim:

 

Against Guardsmen, with Take Aim:

 

Against Marines with AoC, no Take Aim:

 

Against Marines with AoC, with Take Aim:

 

So 130 points with the Malleus kills 10 guardsmen with take aim, or 2 marines with take aim.

 

 Heavy lascannon:

Spoiler

Against Rhino with AoC, no Take Aim:

 

Against Rhino with AoC, with Take Aim:

 

Against Dunecrawler with 5++, no Take Aim:

 

Against Dunecrawler with 5++, with Take Aim:

 

So 130 points with the Lascannons do 8.89 damage to a Rhino with take aim, or 5.92 damage to a Dunecrawler with take aim. 

 

What's this mean? Assuming take aim every turn. 

- Bombast: It will take 4 turns of shooting marines to make its points back, or 5 turns of shooting guardsmen to make its points back. It's still the safest option due to indirect, but it's output is likely going to be reduced further if Guard lose their no line-of-sight rule in the dataslate.

- Malleus: It will take 4 turns of shooting marines to make its points back, or 2 turns of shooting guardsmen to make its points back. It also beats the Bombast against marines. The issue is lack of indirect, which means after the first round of shooting it's likely going to be dead. 

- Lascannon: It will take 2 turns to kill a rhino, or 4 turns to make its points back. It will take 2 turns to kill a dunecrawler, or 4 turns to make its points back. Obviously vehicles with similar durability but more expensive will mean it makes its points back faster. For example a predator tank or leman russ.

 

The malleus and lascannons are the best options, with the lascannons likely being the most useful depending on the targets, but again, the problems being they're all direct fire weapons. If you're taking the lascannons you're better off taking a leman russ vanquisher or an executioner simply because they're much more survivable, mobile, and flexible. Even if the lascannons will do more average damage. If you're taking the malleus it's just kind of a waste of points, Guard really aren't struggling to kill other guard infantry. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by jarms48

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

35 minutes ago, jarms48 said:

 

Bombast:

  Reveal hidden contents

Against Guardsmen, no Take Aim:

 

Against Guardsmen, with Take Aim:

 

Against Marines with AoC, no Take Aim:

 

Against Marines with AoC, with Take Aim:

 

So 130 points with the Bombast kills 4 guardsmen on average with take aim, or 2 marines on average with take aim.

 

 Malleus rocket launcher:

  Reveal hidden contents

Against Guardsmen, no Take Aim:

 

Against Guardsmen, with Take Aim:

 

Against Marines with AoC, no Take Aim:

 

Against Marines with AoC, with Take Aim:

 

So 130 points with the Malleus kills 10 guardsmen with take aim, or 2 marines with take aim.

 

 Heavy lascannon:

  Reveal hidden contents

Against Rhino with AoC, no Take Aim:

 

Against Rhino with AoC, with Take Aim:

 

Against Dunecrawler with 5++, no Take Aim:

 

Against Dunecrawler with 5++, with Take Aim:

 

So 130 points with the Lascannons do 8.89 damage to a Rhino with take aim, or 5.92 damage to a Dunecrawler with take aim. 

 

What's this mean? Assuming take aim every turn. 

- Bombast: It will take 4 turns of shooting marines to make its points back, or 5 turns of shooting guardsmen to make its points back. It's still the safest option due to indirect, but it's output is likely going to be reduced further if Guard lose their no line-of-sight rule in the dataslate.

- Malleus: It will take 4 turns of shooting marines to make its points back, or 2 turns of shooting guardsmen to make its points back. It also beats the Bombast against marines. The issue is lack of indirect, which means after the first round of shooting it's likely going to be dead. 

- Lascannon: It will take 2 turns to kill a rhino, or 4 turns to make its points back. It will take 2 turns to kill a dunecrawler, or 4 turns to make its points back. Obviously vehicles with similar durability but more expensive will mean it makes its points back faster. For example a predator tank or leman russ.

 

The malleus and lascannons are the best options, but again, the problems being they're all direct fire weapons. If you're taking the lascannons you're better off taking a leman russ vanquisher or an executioner simply because they're much more survivable, mobile, and flexible. Even if the lascannons will do more average damage. If you're taking the malleus it's just kind of a waste of points, Guard really aren't struggling to kill other guard infantry. 

Was this math done with or without the artillery debuff?

 

and I know making points back is an easy to track and record metric, but I can imagine a few scenarios where I’d be just fine with the unit’s performance, wiping a squad on an objective to deny those points, even if that’s all it does before getting killed.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[jarms48]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Was this math done with or without the artillery debuff?

 

Before, so after we lose it the bombast will be far worse. As the best you will hit on is 4+ rather than 3+, and you become AP-2 instead of AP-3 after take aim.

 

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

and I know making points back is an easy to track and record metric, but I can imagine a few scenarios where I’d be just fine with the unit’s performance, wiping a squad on an objective to deny those points, even if that’s all it does before getting killed.

 

Yeah, but even with the math I've showed you above it takes 4 bombasts to kill 8 guardsmen on average, with take aim. That's before factoring in things like light cover, dense cover, artillery debuff. The situation just gets worse and worse the more you add into it.