Super-Durable Objective Holder

[L30n1d4s]

As I have been studying the new Codex and listening to reviews/podcasts, a combo for holding objectives jumped out at me:

 

 

-Scions Command Squad (includes Rod of Command, Medipack, and Ogryn bodyguard with Slabshield, plus WLT to give itself Orders and Relic giving squad permanent Transhuman)

 

-Primaris Psyker with Nightshroud power

 

 

So, what does this do? Well, with the Psychic Power cast on the squad, plus the Officer giving it the Order "Take Cover," you can position it on an objective (even in the open) and take all the initial hits on the 6W Ogryn. 

 

With Nightshroud up, the enemy only hits on 4-6s and with Transhuman from the Relic, he only wounds on 4-6s, so an average of 25% of the shots wounding. Now, the Ogryn Bodyguard has a 2+ save from his shield, which goes to a 1+ with "Take Cover," but here is where the real special sauce is -- Scions have a bespoke Strat (1 CP) that, provided they are holding an Objective, prevent enemies from rerolling any wounds against them and worsens the AP of enemy attacks by 1 (so, basically, Votann Armour). This means that your Ogryn Bodyguard now has effectively a 0+ save and no wounds can be rerolled against his Transhuman. Taken all together, he is getting a 2+ save against AP0/-1/-2 attacks, a 3+ save against AP-3 attacks, and a 4+ save against AP-4 attacks.

 

Finally, because of the Medipack, the Ogryn has a 5+++ FNP, -1 Dmg (built in rule for Ogryns) and, if he ever does get killed, he can be revived with full wounds for 1 CP next turn.

 

To illustrate how tough this unit is, a unit of 5 Crises Suits, all with 3 Plasma Rifles (Aslt 1 S8 AP-4 Dmg3) and Markerlights to make them BS3+, attacking this unit would get, on average, 15 shots, about 8 hits, about 4 wounds, about 2 unsaved wounds, about 4 damage, and about 3 total damage on the Ogryn after FNP saves... so 3W left on the Ogryn and the rest of the unit untouched.

 

Alternatively, the same unit with 3 Burst Cannons per Crises Suit would have 90 shots, 45 hits, 23 wounds, 4 unsaved wounds, and about 3 wounds on the Ogryn after FNP saves. 

 

Put this unit on an Objective out in the open to draw enemy fire and watch as they potentially put their entire shooting phase into it, maybe kill the Ogryn, then just revive it at full health next turn for 1CP.

 

Finally, if there is big threat of MWs, then instead of using "Take Cover," use the Prefectus Order to give the squad a 5+++ against MWs.

Edited December 7, 2022 by L30n1d4s

[Focslain]

This is a thing.....

 

Going to be stealing this for my Guard, see what Crusade options I can toss onto this to really urk someone.

[Harrowmaster]

It's a good option for not dying alright, taking a tempestus command rod gives the officer prefectus orders which allows for on demand objective secured. I'd wager the 5 points is worth it to have that bit of insurance and ensure you can still hold the objective. 

[MrKoolPants]

Now this is the kind of analysis and initiative we want to see here. 

 

EDIT:

Can we give the Prime Death Mask of Ollanius for a 4++ on the whole unit? 

 

EDIT 2:

Nope, you're already giving them Order of the Bastium Stellaris for Transhuman. 

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by LtColKool

[L30n1d4s]

Correct about the Death Mask of Olianas vs the Order of Basrium Stellaris relics... that said, the Primaris Psyker can cast Psychic Barrier in the unit to give it a 5++, just in case you are being shot by any AP-6 or better weapons.

Edited December 7, 2022 by L30n1d4s

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

That’s a lot of investment in a single unit that will hold only one objective…

[L30n1d4s]

This is true, 215 points for everything, plus using a WL Trait and Relic... if you drop the Primaris Psyker, then you are down to 155 points (lose access to "trans-hitman" via Nightshroud), which is pretty reasonable. 

 

I think the key to getting value here is 1) grabbing an objective early (obviously to get points) and 2) employing this unit in a way that will attract lots of your opponent's damage capacity, which in turn it can absorb surprisingly well and keep the rest of your army safer.

Edited December 8, 2022 by L30n1d4s

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

39 minutes ago, L30n1d4s said:

This is true, 215 points for everything, plus using a WL Trait and Relic... if you drop the Primaris Psyker, then you are down to 155 points (lose access to "tran:cuss:man" via Nightshroud), which is pretty reasonable. 

 

I think the key to getting value here is 1) grabbing an objective early (obviously to get points) and 2) employing this unit in a way that will attract lots of your opponent's damage capacity, which in turn it can absorb surprisingly well and keep the rest of your army safer.

Might be durable but I imagine if you draw too much fire I think it’ll still melt pretty quickly. 
 

i think the durable command squad builds are best used for close support for the rest of the army 

[MrKoolPants]

The value of using a buffed/stacked “tank” unit like this relies on putting your opponent “on the horns of a dilemma.” If a 155 (or 215) point unit allows you to hold the center of the table, this represents a huge advantage. Your opponent will naturally want to counter this advantage. But any time your opponent spends more than 155 (or 215) points worth of shooting to kill it, they are incurring an opportunity cost. Kasrkin, Rough Riders, even Bullgryn or plain old Infantry Squads will take less heat, allowing them to score objectives or spike damage.
 

As a player what you have to do is make the Scion Command Squad a sufficiently tempting or irritating target. Holding a center objective can mean the difference between a win and a loss for many matchups. In this way, you can force the opponent’s hand, and take the initiative. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, LtColKool said:

The value of using a buffed/stacked “tank” unit like this relies on putting your opponent “on the horns of a dilemma.” If a 155 (or 215) point unit allows you to hold the center of the table, this represents a huge advantage. Your opponent will naturally want to counter this advantage. But any time your opponent spends more than 155 (or 215) points worth of shooting to kill it, they are incurring an opportunity cost. Kasrkin, Rough Riders, even Bullgryn or plain old Infantry Squads will take less heat, allowing them to score objectives or spike damage.
 

As a player what you have to do is make the Scion Command Squad a sufficiently tempting or irritating target. Holding a center objective can mean the difference between a win and a loss for many matchups. In this way, you can force the opponent’s hand, and take the initiative. 

But does the opponent’s opportunity cost outweigh your own opportunity cost in building up this one squad and focusing so much on it?

 

with the prevalence of MWs now I’m not sure this type of unit really will stand as long as a lot of people think they will.

[Santaclauswitz]

Can a command squad be targeted? I reread lookout sir and I'm not so sure.

 

Yeah it's durable. I'm not a big fan of relying on psychic. I like psychic but only plan bits of strategy on specific dice rolls, icing on the cake stuff.

 

What else are you taking in the squad? Vox? Standard? Special weapon? Weapons for the bodyguard?I just reckon that command squads should be a bit of a build a bear buffer really. 

 

If I've 90 Las shots going spare I'll put a lot of pain possibly wipe 3 guard squads not waste them on a command squad. Less units to be affected by a standards aura. Less units to bounce orders around. Less Las shots coming back at me giving me more free shots against you next turn. 

[Lord_Ikka]

1 hour ago, Santaclauswitz said:

Can a command squad be targeted? I reread lookout sir and I'm not so sure.

It can be targeted if it doesn't fulfill the requirements of Look Out Sir (in this case, not within 3" a qualifying unit). Otherwise, it's perfectly fine to shoot at. 

 

It's a fun idea but won't work well more than once or twice against an opponent- you're also placing one of your order-giving units out in the middle of the board as a distraction rather than using it to buff your army, so the pro/con of doing that is debatable. Personally, you're spending 155-215 points and 2CP (plus another if you want the strat to worsen AP/stop wound re-rolls and a second to res the Ogryn if needed) on a distraction unit, which isn't worth it in my view. Most experienced players will probably shoot at this command squad once, see the fire bounce off, then just deal with it by either charging it in melee with a tarpit, or contesting the objective with a cheap ObSec unit. If I was playing against it I would most likely just concede the objective that the command squad is holding and focus on the other two/three midfield objectives with the rest of my army (maybe throwing a disposable unit like scarabs or Assault Intercessors at it)- it wouldn't be worth my time to try to deal with that annoyance and I'd rather spend my efforts taking out the other units moving up to score points. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

20 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

It can be targeted if it doesn't fulfill the requirements of Look Out Sir (in this case, not within 3" a qualifying unit). Otherwise, it's perfectly fine to shoot at. 

 

It's a fun idea but won't work well more than once or twice against an opponent- you're also placing one of your order-giving units out in the middle of the board as a distraction rather than using it to buff your army, so the pro/con of doing that is debatable. Personally, you're spending 155-215 points and 2CP (plus another if you want the strat to worsen AP/stop wound re-rolls and a second to res the Ogryn if needed) on a distraction unit, which isn't worth it in my view. Most experienced players will probably shoot at this command squad once, see the fire bounce off, then just deal with it by either charging it in melee with a tarpit, or contesting the objective with a cheap ObSec unit. If I was playing against it I would most likely just concede the objective that the command squad is holding and focus on the other two/three midfield objectives with the rest of my army (maybe throwing a disposable unit like scarabs or Assault Intercessors at it)- it wouldn't be worth my time to try to deal with that annoyance and I'd rather spend my efforts taking out the other units moving up to score points. 

Right? Especially when an ObSec unit can touch the objective and deny those points.

if your opponent just ignores the command squad then all that investment was for nothing.

 

I do think an ogryn bodyguard is almost a requirement though. 
In the event a command squad does get targeted, the ogryn absorbs most if not all the damage, and then squad either moves to safety, or your army destroys the unit targeting the command squad.

[mertbl]

You don't need the order for the 5+ FNP, the medic is already providing a 5+ fnp. 

 

You could stretch this bad boy out and possibly grab 2 objectives with it. 

 

Also the perfectus order to make them obsec.

Edited December 9, 2022 by mertbl

[Lord_Ikka]

3 minutes ago, mertbl said:

You could stretch this bad boy out and possibly grab 2 objectives with it.  

Incorrect- even if you can stretch and get on two objectives, you can only control one per turn (and have to select which one it will be considered controlling). You cannot control two objectives with one unit.

[mertbl]

5 minutes ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Incorrect- even if you can stretch and get on two objectives, you can only control one per turn (and have to select which one it will be considered controlling). You cannot control two objectives with one unit.

That is 100% incorrect. A model can only hold 1 objective. A unit can hold several if its big enough. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

15 minutes ago, mertbl said:

You don't need the order for the 5+ FNP, the medic is already providing a 5+ fnp. 

 

You could stretch this bad boy out and possibly grab 2 objectives with it. 

 

Also the perfectus order to make them obsec.

Again, so your commissar who could be buffing the rest of the army is now giving a command squad (which should be buffing the army as well) just to make this unit useful…

 

you’re just building an entire list around one single unit that’s only marginally useful.

[mertbl]

2 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Again, so your commissar who could be buffing the rest of the army is now giving a command squad (which should be buffing the army as well) just to make this unit useful…

 

you’re just building an entire list around one single unit that’s only marginally useful.

The command rod let's him give scions perfectus orders. You don't need the commisar at all. Aside from the psyker(can astropath take nghtshroud?), its a fairly self contained unit. Guard still have an issue of holding primary, if you get this durable unit on that 3rd objective on the table, it could swing the game. 

 

And my reading of how orders splash, his order on himself splashes to other units near by if he goes something like take cover, making all your front line units more durable.  

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

13 minutes ago, mertbl said:

The command rod let's him give scions perfectus orders. You don't need the commisar at all. Aside from the psyker(can astropath take nghtshroud?), its a fairly self contained unit. Guard still have an issue of holding primary, if you get this durable unit on that 3rd objective on the table, it could swing the game. 

 

And my reading of how orders splash, his order on himself splashes to other units near by if he goes something like take cover, making all your front line units more durable.  

If you have a viable unit close enough to be passed on the order sure.

 

this just seems like one of those builds that is much better on paper than in reality.

 

like if you have a unit close enough for an order to splash to it from the command squad, then your opponent probably can’t target the unit making all this tankyness pointless, meaning you’re likely wasting all of that opportunity of doing more with other WLTs and/or relics.

[Lord_Ikka]

1 hour ago, mertbl said:

That is 100% incorrect. A model can only hold 1 objective. A unit can hold several if its big enough. 

Ah, damn, you are right. Apologies- I've been playing Knights lately so model/unit is interchangeable basically. Hmm, that would have effected several previous games...