Using Eliminators in Templars

[Prot]

The last couple of games I've been using these guys as back field holders. They can't take a ton of punishment and are prone to aggressive units charging them, but I like to stagger them with perhaps some Infiltrators, or just something to soak up a charge, etc.

 

So far so good, but I just realized their cloaks must conflict with the no cover vow. 

 

I'm wondering how you adjust for this? Or do you not take them? Or not take the vow? What's your experience on Eliminators?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I pretty much always take Uphold… no matter what some have to say AP4+ is out there plus the mini THP can be huge. I tried them at first but I’d rather just use the points towards Eradicators.

Edited December 10, 2022 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Prot]

That does make tactical sense and yea there's some nasty AP out there to worry about in nearly every army. But what do you do for holding a rear objective?

 

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have a five man Incursor squad, ten man PCS and often Grimaldus and his servitors can as well.

[Acebaur]

Uphold is only worth it against certain armies now. Against most things with AoC or Void Armor you want AAC.  Nids, Tau and even DG and BA Uphold is good against, maybe certain Eldar lists. Otherwise AAC is going to be the better option most of the time. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

My meta Uphold is better for me. I did use AAC versus GK which was a great choice.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Give 2 las fusils, and the other the instigator, and just run them out of LOS after they shoot.  Don't worry about cover when you can LOS them. I realize that play may depend on the terrain and placement of objectives, but it's only 75 points for the strategic option and they might even plink a few wounds off vehicles and such.

 

That being said are they a must have? Not at all.

Are they particularly "Black Templar"y?  Not in my mind, but you do you.

[Medjugorje]

On 12/10/2022 at 6:30 PM, Acebaur said:

Uphold is only worth it against certain armies now. Against most things with AoC or Void Armor you want AAC.  Nids, Tau and even DG and BA Uphold is good against, maybe certain Eldar lists. Otherwise AAC is going to be the better option most of the time. 

against Drukhari Uphold is an autotake because there is so much S8 and a lot of AP4. Autowounds is often worthless (except against coven) and AAC is dangerous because their transports try to tag or charge you as often as they can

[Emicus]

I like them in an 'all primaris' army since they are cheap. You can use them as speed bumps, backfield holders, deep strike screeners or indeed forward deploy.

 

They even have guns that aren't meh.

 

And being phobos you can re-deploy them off an edge with a stratagem for shenanigans.

[lansalt]

On 12/10/2022 at 7:18 PM, 9x19 Parabellum said:

Are they particularly "Black Templar"y?  Not in my mind, but you do you.

 

I was thinking the same, until I remembered the religious sniper soldier from Saving Private Ryan praying while shooting and I imagined a BT version of him:

 

Quote

Brother Jackson : [lining shots]  Blessed be the God-Emperor my strength, which teaches my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.

[Fires bolter twice] 

Brother Jackson : My goodness and my fortress... my high tower and my deliverer.

[Fires bolter ] 

Brother Jackson : My shield of contempt, and he in whom I trust.

[Fires bolter , then to his bolter] 

Private Jackson : Here you go baby.

 

[Prot]

I don't have an issue with the background motivation for taking them. On the most basic level, their a legal choice, and I don't see it as being way out of character. I mean a lot has changed since the first supplement..... in other words if we want to be picky there are a few things I could note that a lot of people don't do that used to be a rule, or just part of the lore. Right now, the marine codex is so chalk full of useless units I say you should use what assets you can get some mileage out of.

 

That's where I was hoping to keep this conversation; just in the realm of are they worth it?  And maybe for other chapters it makes more sense, but the thing is the conflict to the Vow is an issue.

 

So here's what I'd ask you folks to consider: What holds an objective, and provides the same (if not better) level of offense/survivability? 

[Marshal Reinhard]

Even in the ancient vaunted tome of Codex: Black Templars from 4th edition, Sword brethren could be given a special rule that allowed them to infiltrate. The chapter's finest could in fact opt to go in sneaky beaky style. Astartes are centuries old super soldiers that are masters of all types of warfare. That includes the Templars, even if their preffered style may be to charge headlong into battle, blade in hand.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Marshal Reinhard

[Prot]

2 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Even in the ancient vaunted tome of Codex: Black Templars from 4th edition, Sword brethren could be given a special rule that allowed them to infiltrate. The chapter's finest could in fine opt to go in sneaky beaky style. Astartes are centuries old super soldiers that are masters of all types of warfare. That includes the Templars, even if their preffered style may be to charge headlong into battle, blade in hand.

 

I agree, and wholeheartedly appreciate the rich history a lot of Templar folk have in these situations (I forgot about that rule personally!).

 

How about the unit game wise though? What do you think could replace that role with the same/better efficiency? Or is this it?

[Marshal Reinhard]

I just wanted to bring that nugget into the spot light, since lore implications were at least mentioned.. and also since perceptions that templar should be one way run very deep here I feel it needlessly limits the tools at our disposal. The same reason also leads me to remind myself every once in a while, that the same codex, explicitly allows BT to ally with grey knights, hating witches be damned.

 

As for how elminators perform I'm not too sure as I've no play experience with them. I believe a common issue with them is the squad size which I think you can't increase? You got 3 and that's it.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Marshal Reinhard

[SirJyo]

At 75pts cover or no cover, they are cheaper than an incursor squad.

They can hold a back objective so you can have more points elsewhere.

If they get cover (not using uphold) they are arguably more survivable than incursors.

In cover +2 to save with AOC potentially +3

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Reinhard that was just perfect .

[Karhedron]

18 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

As for how elminators perform I'm not too sure as I've no play experience with them. I believe a common issue with them is the squad size which I think you can't increase? You got 3 and that's it.

 

While that is true, it is also worth noting that this makes them pretty much immune to Morale. To kill enough of them to make a break test, your opponent would have to wipe out the squad anyway.

 

I like to compare them to Devastators who are another shooty backfield Objective holder. A 6-man Dev squad with 4 Lascannons costs 168 points while 2x3-man squads with 2 Las fusils each costs 150 points. They have the same number of wounds but the Eliminators are more durable in cover thanks to their Camo cloaks. They have similar firepower although the Devs get +1S and upgrade from 3 Damage to D6. The Eliminators have the option for forward deploy though and can also move after shooting which is a handy ability to snag Objectives or get them out of dodge. They can also use Guerilla warfare to redeploy if necessary.

 

Granted Devastators are hardly a meta-unit but I think the comparison help to highlight how much utility the Eliminators can bring to the table.