My Templars vs. Custodes

[Prot]

So this is a continuation with me trying to get back into full swing with a few loyalist armies. So far I've been swinging between my Wolves project, and my Templars project.

 

Previously I did an update on the outcome of my Templars vs. the Word Bearers and I pulled off a decent victory, but I felt it was most in my opponent's errors. 

 

After our random pairings, I found myself matched back up with the amazing custodes. It had been quite a while since I faced them. Ironically we had the same mission as last time and I wanted to make sure I used the same list as last time which basically featured my 20 man Crusader squad which somehow held to a razor thin 4 man squad, until the Apothecary could boost them back up to 6 guys against the Word Bearers.

 

Well this time that squad did not fair so well. 

 

Custodes had a very traditional list, Trajann, a bike captain on dawn eagle, and two squads of termies. A lot of foot sloggers and the only element of surprise would be his 2 squads of termies deep striking.

 

Fast forward and he gets first turn, and it's a really lethargic first turn so I feel good about my chances in the opening moments. I drop 2 banners down, the 20 man crusade squad is buffed up with 5++, and leads the characters.

 

It's at this point it all goes quite badly. 

 

I'll tell the story in point form with observations along the way:

- I actually took the 5+ invuln/mini Transhuman oath and that was clearly a mistake on my part. The reason? He had played Shadowkeepers, and I was -1 attack across the board all game, every model. That REALLY hurt.  Furthermore, he only had a few axes which would have wounded me on a 2+. So I think in hindsight I probably should have taken the extra attack Oath just to negate his negative all game.

 

- The 20 man crusader squad was really starting to be in danger of being cut in my last game (maybe down to 10) but in this game it was far worse. 

 

- I did pull off a win, but I could not damage the Termies at all. I was not feeling this as a true win, but more me just finding a way to pull off a crazy move on one objective.

 

Unfortunately I have to leave it at that, but I will revisit...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Which unit(s) was your mvp ?

[9x19 Parabellum]

I hate playing against Custodes.  I think they get far too many tricks and feels-bad type rules for their statlines.  -1 attack? Really? When you have an armywide T5, 1+/4++/6+++?

 

Exceedingly frustrating to play against.  Glad you beat them.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Funnily enough, BT and Shadowkeepers are my two Loyalist armies. Honestly impressed you managed to pull off the win here, as while I disagree with 9X19 that the rules combos for Custodes are too much, against BT it's pretty much a nightmare scenario. I mostly like where Custodes are right now in every regard except the lack of damage 3 axes, BT just don't have the punch.

 

Curious if you find yourself using Uphold a lot still? With AoC, Accept Any Challenge is my usual default.

[9x19 Parabellum]

1 hour ago, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

Funnily enough, BT and Shadowkeepers are my two Loyalist armies. Honestly impressed you managed to pull off the win here, as while I disagree with 9X19 that the rules combos for Custodes are too much, against BT it's pretty much a nightmare scenario. I mostly like where Custodes are right now in every regard except the lack of damage 3 axes, BT just don't have the punch.

 

Curious if you find yourself using Uphold a lot still? With AoC, Accept Any Challenge is my usual default.

 

I agree it's probably a mental block I have now.  I see Custodes across the table and immediately go into a kind of resigned/dejected place mentally. I've never won a game against custodes. Ever. In any edition of the game, and even against inexperienced players. 

[Prot]

I should back up a bit and clarify a few things...

 

Sorry I had to leave the post short, something came up.

 

Anyway the game was certainly one sided. You can see from the pics above I decided to try to 'hold off' his major rush with the 20 man crusader squad. It didn't go well.

 

-Again the vow was clearly the wrong choice. That's just my mistake. The -1 attacks all game was incredibly potent against my list. My shooting was limited to: Lasfusils, 2 MM's on the 2 Impulsors, and 3 assault melta's on the Eradicators.

 

-There was a bit of bad luck, but I've experienced this many times vs Custodes so I don't really want to blame dice. In one turn I fired 10 Multimelta's, and failed to remove a single terminator. 

 

- The Terminators were unbeatable monsters in this one. I had no answer for them, and they were free to do whatever they pleased against my list. In fact my right flank (which was his weaker flank) was pushing his deep strike back (as  I suspected that is where he would drop at least one squad of termies) with my Infiltrators. This only worked one turn. With their superior fire power and my lack of cover, they knocked the Lasfusil dudes down to one guy, then I started to see that flank fall, when I failed to kill any with my shooting, I opted to block them with an Impulsor I believe this was the play at the time because I was clearly getting wrecked on that flank. 

 

- backing up a bit, I had one mission for my infiltrating Warsuit: Hold up the Virtus Praetor bikes. It did not work. I did not kill any, and in turn I hoped to hold out with even one wound, but the return attacks from the bikes actually killed the warsuit to the very wound. The most damage I would do with the warsuit, ironiically, would be the ensuing explosion which dealt about 7 unsaved mortal wounds on  his units deep in his zone.  BUT without  being able to hold the bikes back for even one turn, this too was a failure that meant I just fed him free points and a free consolidation.

 

- At center, where most of the action happened, he severely and quite effortlessly shrunk my 20 man crusader squad down with a high volume of Axe/Spear shots of which every unsaved wound is killing a dude. This isn't that hard to do when hitting on 2's and rerolling all hit/wounds of 1 with the help of Trajann.

 

- My apothecary struggled to keep up, and with the relic I at this point decided damage control was the only option and gave the crusader renmants a 4++ invuln. This didn't make a very big difference. He eventually charged me with 4 Custode Guardians, followed up by Trajann for rerolls. He also had a Virtus banner berarer dude giving him PLUS 2 ATTACKS to every model within every squad within 6". Combined with -1 attack, this meant a differential of 3 attacks on each dude he had. Which really sucked the life out of my Crusaders.

 

- I was now down to only a handful of members, but I did have the Sigismund relic, and I did actually target that Custode Guardian squad with it, so just as I'm about to lick my lips rerolling -everything- on the fists/sword, he pulls out his once per game -no rerolls of any kind for you- strat. (This is the third game in a row my relic has been effectively nullified). At this point in the life expectation of the crusaders, this was a massive pivot point. I would get 2 Guardians killed, but one was left alive due to my inability to accurately hit without the Fists re rolling.

 

- At the time pictured above, is Helbrecht peeling off of center with the Sword Brethren. He gave them re rolls, and I  had to use a strat to give them all an extra attack to nullify his -1 attack. This was one tiny positive, he finally ran out of 4+ dice rolls, and the thunderhammer hit home and the claws/swords managed to kill the 2 bikers. 

 

- This left Helbrecht open (I did not think I'd kill all three bikers with Sword Brethren). So in turn his Captain on Dawn Eagle jet bike promptly killed Helbrecht (I had no invuln from his sword which I was unaware of but it actually didn't matter with AoC.... but I was easily over killed from a charging Dawn Eagle.)

 

- I am in HUGE trouble now and I know it. Helbrechts death gave him 15 points and my Crusader squad was dwindling too quickly.  So in desperation (I had Bathe your sword in the blood..) and my EC slammed into Trajann in the same turn my Sword brethren charged the bikers, so he interupted with Trajaan, and reminded me that he COULD fight twice this turn.... sure enough the EC lived with 2 wounds! Trajann in turn actually failed EVERY save and was killed giving me 15 points with my funsy secondary.

 

- Fast forward and I'm just getting hammered. The only thing I have going is I took down his banner with my Sword Brethren scooting up the left flank and killing his Sister squad off of the objective netting me another secondary. He had a big 6 man squad of Guardians coming after my Sword Brethren so I knew there time on this planet was going to be short so I hid in ruins, and forced him to dig me out deep in his zone. 

 

- The Crusader squad is more than dead. His secondary Termie squad is down to 3 guys, but it's more than enough to kill the Judiciar (who is dangerously close to getting pulled as he is a weird fit to get into the action and yet his Close Combat is underwhelming.) His Fights Last came up only once this game, but as usual after he issues it, he dies.

 

- THIS is my moment of the game. I do the math and I look at the table. I have to stop him from ripping down my last banner, And I have to somehow kill the last 3 Terminators on my left flank (the ones that just killed the Justiciar). So... who's left? An Impulsor half dead, and good ol' Grimaldus. I overcharge Grimaldus' plasma, take 2 wounds off the injured Termie. He's dead. 2 Left to go. The Impulsor fires 2 MM's and he saves them yet again. Grimaldus marches in, hits with all (he gave himself the litaniues and that includes 6's cause mortals). Somehow all hit, and Grimaldus rolls 2 MW's, and 5 wounds. ALL go unsaved killing the Termies.

 

In hindsight I note to my opponent that I cheated. I took an extra attack, forgetting to minus one attack, and I offer to roll it all over, but he's a good sport and says he literally failed every save, including his mortal wound saves and said even with 4 attacks he was still going to lose both termies.

 

On the other flank I run my last infiltrators up to his objective, and take down his last banner, my obsec beats his obsec termies by a model there and I take over the objective long enough that he does not score the Primary on that one. 

 

That being said his only action at this time is to kill my Sword Brethren with his 6 Gaurdian squad which he easily does. I lose that objective, but he can't plant a banner in time. His remnant termie squad that I stole a banner/objective from retaliates, and wipes the Infiltrators. I lose that objective.

 

- At this point we call it a game, add it up, and I was losing the entire game, but with my last turn goofy moves, I manage a 3 point victory. All I had left was Grimaldus, and 2 half dead Impulsors.  He had 4 Termies, 6 custodes in one squad, another 3 man squad, and his captain on Dawneagle, and the Banner bearer. (Still quite a bit actually)

 

So that's the big run down. My army felt lethargic, and ill equipped to handle this level of toughness, and combat nerfing from an army that hits pretty hard. 

 

I think that's it for the 20 man Crusader blob. It's too... unwieldy and is often dissected by close combat armies. It's best usage in my opinion is against shooty armies that just require you to advance it, protect it with buffs (FnP/invulns, etc) and then unleash, and tie up the other army once you get there. But at the end of the day these are just common marines and easy to take down in close combat. I think the points are better spent elsewhere. I felt this way against the Word Bearers but this confirms it. I may take on some Blade Guard or even assault Centurions.

 

I think for now I need to expand the Eradicators. Maybe move to heavy melta/MM and make sure Helbrecht is helping them more. They need the help, and they need to do work. I'm just realizing this army has to have a lot of shooty to effectively counter close combat nasties.

 

The weird thing is the Impulsors. No one like shooting them,and they move well enough to contest stuff, and / or hold my own zone all while plinking out with MM's. Not bad really.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Prot, what is your full list?

Have you tried running a judiciar to protect your 20 man PCS against nasty melee armies?

[Prot]

12 minutes ago, 9x19 Parabellum said:

Prot, what is your full list?

Have you tried running a judiciar to protect your 20 man PCS against nasty melee armies?

 

Judiciar: yes. See above... he's mentioned a few times. (I'm considering pulling him)

 

The list is not entirely optimized, and includes units I want to try out so keep that in mind:

Helbrecht

Grimaldus

EC

 

5 Infiltrators

5 Assault Intercessors (Fist of Balthus)

20 PBC 4 fists and Sword on SB

 

Judiciar

Apothecary (loaded)

5 SB

1 Warsuit (getting cut)

 

2 MM Impulsors

3 Assault Melta Eradicators

3 Eliminators all Lasfusils

 

relics: Fist of Balthus, Sigismunds Seal (PBC), Aurillian Shroud (Judiciar), Crusader Helm (Apoth), Holy Orb (SB)

 

Sometimes I put Grimaldus' WL trait on him for double deny at +1. (Wasn't a factor in this game.)

 

 

 

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I run a full squad of Eradicators with two MM.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Your EC managing to kill Trajann in melee is surprising, as is Grimaldis dropping a beatdown on the terminators. Pretty epic moments. My EC hasn't managed to kill more than a single psycher and some plague marines since the new version dropped, which is weird because the holdover Index version we had for a bit was murder on legs in my army. Stats haven't really changed much, I think my opponents just got gunshy and really play to counter him.

 

Was going to suggest you shuffle things around to make room for terminators, but then I noticed it's an all Primaris force. Don't have any experience with playing most of these units, but it definitely has enough anti tank to deal with Custodes at range. Sounds like a spooky game but you clutched the win, which is pretty cool.

 

[Prot]

1 hour ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I run a full squad of Eradicators with two MM.

 

Do the other eradicators have heavy melta or assault melta? I'm trying to fit in a squad of 4 with an MM, and 3 heavy melta, near Helbrecht for critical rerolls.  

 

Still the squad feels better suited for my Ultra's... but just maybe it's mandatory on all marines nowadays? What do you think?

 

52 minutes ago, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

Your EC managing to kill Trajann in melee is surprising, as is Grimaldis dropping a beatdown on the terminators. Pretty epic moments. My EC hasn't managed to kill more than a single psycher and some plague marines since the new version dropped, which is weird because the holdover Index version we had for a bit was murder on legs in my army. Stats haven't really changed much, I think my opponents just got gunshy and really play to counter him.

 

Was going to suggest you shuffle things around to make room for terminators, but then I noticed it's an all Primaris force. Don't have any experience with playing most of these units, but it definitely has enough anti tank to deal with Custodes at range. Sounds like a spooky game but you clutched the win, which is pretty cool.

 

 

Often I try to line up the EC so he had momentum on his side and his 6" constant intervention is pretty clutch. I don't like to play 'gotcha 40K' so I always, always make my opponents aware but it still is very hard for them to get stuck in with me without him getting a sneaky move in. So far he's actually had a good kill rate, but yes, the odd game he's certainly debatable vs something like a Chappy on a bike.

 

As far as shuffle, I've considered relic termies with 3 chainfists/2 claws as I have them built (as Ultra's) to use, and the same stands for Centurions.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Heavy melta all the way with chapter master rerolls and devout push to pull the xenos battle focus shenanigans !! Eradicators are critical for Templars since we don’t pack a lot of shooty :cuss: units of death.

 

The EC is such a killer pimp !!!

[Emicus]

Grimaldus pulling a hail-emperor and being the last one out of a warzone... hmm.. reminds me of something can't quite put a...

Edited December 15, 2022 by Emicus
Typo

[Prot]

1 hour ago, Emicus said:

Grimaldus pulling a hail-emperor and being the last one out of a warzone... hmm.. reminds me of something can't quite put a...

 

I'm just going to be 100% honest here. When I'm getting crushed in a game, and there comes a turn (it's almost always turn 3) where I try to figure out if there is any way possible for me to win.

 

I was all but ready to concede. Then the Champion barely lived from contact with Trajann, and in turn killed him. (+15 points), and the only other plausible thing to do was shoot for the hail mary on the Objective.

 

When it went all my way there, I was shocked, and my opponent was.... how can I put this?....  expressing considerable disbelief. He tossed his phone on the table, and said... well "Good game". Packed his stuff up and announced how terrible he is at 40K. 

 

So I felt pretty bad, and that's when I replayed it and realized I did it wrong by not reducing my attacks by one, but he insisted he still failed every save. I tried telling him we could replay that assault 10 times and Grimaldus probably dies, or at least does not clear out two termies which had been haunting me all game.

 

I will say though without easy access to Mortal Wounds, running into a Custodes player with even a mild run of rolling 4+ is extremely frustrating to play against.