Infantry squads, and what the future holds for them.

[jimbo1701]

I’m presuming my conclusion will be correct here but bear with me as I wondered what other peoples thoughts are. Please bear with my ramblings. 
 

Special weapons / veteran / conscript squads are gone for now. 

cadian / catachan / Krieg teams exist to make best use of the specific kits for them. 
 

cadians also get the castellan and command squads specific to them, but there’s nothing to stop you running any regiment as these should you wish. 
 

conversely, we have a new styled heavy weapons team in the cadian style, but any heavy weapons team can be subbed in for them. 
 

so if you wanted to use the new models but using the generic squad rules for infantry squads and command squads (basically to include a heavy weapon team) you can do so, they just don’t get the cadian keyword or benefit from the shock troops rule. Same for catachans (and Krieg if you convert or use fw to represent the command / heavy elements) 

 

So the catachan command squad exists but you can’t build a catachan jungle fighters command squad like with cadians, only a generic one. 

 

finally to my question. 

 

There are no pictures of them on the datasheets / in the book but as the aesthetics are so different, do we think the old cadian command and infantry squads (especially as one has a 12 month old upgrade sprue) are going to be gone for good soon rather than rebranded as ‘infantry squad’ and ‘command squad’. 
 

The sentinel and heavy weapons teams are obviously now obsolete, and to incorporate a newer heavy weapons team into the older infantry would look odd. I’m 99.9% sure they’re gone for good (the upgrade sprue is and always will remain an oddity, aside from to try and push sales of the existing ancient kit prior to replacement) but wondered what others thought. 
 

I try to view it from how a new player would perceive things when they build their list and want to run a non cadian infantry squad / command squad but have few alternatives that aren’t long OOP. 

[War of the Eagle]

You will never take my old Sentinel models alive! 

[apologist]

6 hours ago, jimbo1701 said:

[...]

finally to my question. 

There are no pictures of them on the datasheets / in the book but as the aesthetics are so different, do we think the old cadian command and infantry squads (especially as one has a 12 month old upgrade sprue) are going to be gone for good soon rather than rebranded as ‘infantry squad’ and ‘command squad’. 
 

The sentinel and heavy weapons teams are obviously now obsolete, and to incorporate a newer heavy weapons team into the older infantry would look odd. I’m 99.9% sure they’re gone for good (the upgrade sprue is and always will remain an oddity, aside from to try and push sales of the existing ancient kit prior to replacement) but wondered what others thought. 

 

There will certainly be no sentimentality – the old Cadian sprue (along with the Cadian Command and Heavy Weapon sprues) have long since paid for themselves – the Genestealer cult and Cadian upgrade sprues having helped them stay relevant – , and GW will not want second-hand sales of the old Cadians to cannibalise sales of the new Cadians. That's what I suspect is at the root of no older models appearing in the datasheets/Codex. This will be informed by some consideration of older collectors – no need to risk unnecessarily annoying established customers (hence the presence of both the Cadian and 'Infantry' squads to allow back-compatibility) – but that will be secondary to the commercial concerns of emphasising the newer models.

 

The Catachans likely show the future for the old Cadian box – going to direct only – but I'd be more inclined to say that the new Cadian range is such a direct replacement that the old ones will simply go OOP, upgrade sprue or no.

 

Ultimately, GW aren't hugely consistent on how they treat older models – though that's not to say there's not reasoning behind one kit going OOP, another going direct, and another being reboxed or recut.  Primarily, it's going to be a commercial concern, and in the specific case of the Imperial Guard infantry squads, I imagine there'll have been some discussions on how best to balance maximising the new range against selling out the old that was built into the Codex, rather than the other way round. 

 

+++

 

On a more general note about the Imperial Guard, it's a range that's unlike most others for GW, thanks to a few factors, not least the number of different sculpts – and the ease with which third party figures can be substituted – for the same basic unit. I think that's been part of why they've been recalcitrant to support anything other than Cadian in the recent past – but I think the design team and the collectors are keen for more.

 

The approach the new Codex has taken seems a rather neat way for this to work commercially. In having Regiment-specific unit entries and rules, GW is able to create new sculpts for fan-favourite (or new) regiments that can be slotted into existing armies (rather than replacing anything) with some minor rules tweaks to justify their release.

 

Models, we're told, sell themselves – but specific rules, for some reason, give some cache in the market. By having specific 'Cadian', 'Death Korps of Krieg', 'Catachan' etc. unit entries, it's easier for marketing to find a niche, and harder for people to justify third-party replacements in events (though of course that's neither here nor there in most environments).

 

The nearest equivalent I can think of is Warcry, where the formerly amorphous entry of 'Chaos marauder' has been split up into more characterful and distinctly Warhammer sub-factions; that can then be fielded in Age of Sigmar as slight variations on a general theme.

 

It would not surprise me one bit to see one-off kits of other Regiments appear for Kill Team (as DKoK already have) that are then introduced into the next iteration of Codex: Astra Militarum. Were I a betting man, I'd guess that a Catachan Kill Team kit is already at some stage of development...

Edited December 13, 2022 by apologist

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

8 hours ago, jimbo1701 said:

I’m presuming my conclusion will be correct here but bear with me as I wondered what other peoples thoughts are. Please bear with my ramblings. 
 

Special weapons / veteran / conscript squads are gone for now. 

cadian / catachan / Krieg teams exist to make best use of the specific kits for them. 
 

cadians also get the castellan and command squads specific to them, but there’s nothing to stop you running any regiment as these should you wish. 
 

conversely, we have a new styled heavy weapons team in the cadian style, but any heavy weapons team can be subbed in for them. 
 

so if you wanted to use the new models but using the generic squad rules for infantry squads and command squads (basically to include a heavy weapon team) you can do so, they just don’t get the cadian keyword or benefit from the shock troops rule. Same for catachans (and Krieg if you convert or use fw to represent the command / heavy elements) 

 

So the catachan command squad exists but you can’t build a catachan jungle fighters command squad like with cadians, only a generic one. 

 

finally to my question. 

 

There are no pictures of them on the datasheets / in the book but as the aesthetics are so different, do we think the old cadian command and infantry squads (especially as one has a 12 month old upgrade sprue) are going to be gone for good soon rather than rebranded as ‘infantry squad’ and ‘command squad’. 
 

The sentinel and heavy weapons teams are obviously now obsolete, and to incorporate a newer heavy weapons team into the older infantry would look odd. I’m 99.9% sure they’re gone for good (the upgrade sprue is and always will remain an oddity, aside from to try and push sales of the existing ancient kit prior to replacement) but wondered what others thought. 
 

I try to view it from how a new player would perceive things when they build their list and want to run a non cadian infantry squad / command squad but have few alternatives that aren’t long OOP. 

How are the old HWS and sentinels obsolete?

[librisrouge]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

How are the old HWS and sentinels obsolete?

They're both on the wrong base, which is easily fixed for the HWS at least. Less easily fixed is the fact that the new sentinel model is considerably bigger than the old one. I would not be surprised, in time at least, if using the old model was seen as modeling for advantage. Of course, anybody claiming that deserves a dreadsock to the face but some people are less than considerate in their games.

[Cap'm Heckus]

The stats and general aesthetic of the sentinels and HWT remain the same.  I see no need the change unless you want to.

 

my hope for catachans is that they are a place holder to keep them relevant until a new line comes out.  
 

as far as the generic infantry squad and command?  I assume that’ll stick around as placeholders for people who are still playing non-cadians.  If they were gonna cancel something, I think they would have done it to catachans with this codex.  They could have pulled them at anytime, as they have been without their own box art for most of 9th.

[Minsc]

9 hours ago, War of the Eagle said:

You will never take my old Sentinel models alive! 

You avatar goes along sooo well with this statement. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

56 minutes ago, librisrouge said:

They're both on the wrong base, which is easily fixed for the HWS at least. Less easily fixed is the fact that the new sentinel model is considerably bigger than the old one. I would not be surprised, in time at least, if using the old model was seen as modeling for advantage. Of course, anybody claiming that deserves a dreadsock to the face but some people are less than considerate in their games.

None of that makes them obsolete as there’s no rule requiring rebasing nor adjustments to size to be made.

 

anyone who thinks the old models are obsolete doesnt know what that word means.

[Santaclauswitz]

They'll stop making them at some point. I will get the new stuff as well because I like the models. I doubt it would look good trying to mix squads of old and new. But I really like the idea of mixing it up for different squads. I'm seriously thinking about putting a lot of lead on the table. Steel legion for most of my "shock" troops and mix and match some of my other stuff as infantry squads. Add on some kasrkin, a command squad, solar and creed will do me fine for the time. 

[jarms48]

My hopes right now is additional troop choices coming from future Guard killteams. There could totally be:

- Tallarn Desert Raiders KT

- Tanith First and Only KT

- Mordian KT

- Armageddon KT

 

Etc. Would be great to have more options.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 minute ago, jarms48 said:

My hopes right now is additional troop choices coming from future Guard killteams. There could totally be:

- Tallarn Desert Raiders KT

- Tanith First and Only KT

- Mordian KT

- Armageddon KT

 

Etc. Would be great to have more options.

You forgot Catachan ;)

 

I know Armageddon is fairly popular, but I think they’re either going to merge their kits with DKOK. They’re just so similar visually and minor enough I just can’t see GW going that direction.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[jarms48]

That's what etc is for. You want me to write out every regiment that had a regiment in the past? :P

[Shamansky]

No one remembers Elysian drop troops. So sad :(

[jimbo1701]

11 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

How are the old HWS and sentinels obsolete?

Sorry, to clarify I termed them obsolete as there is a data sheet with the new versions of each of them in the codex, hence no need for them to continue producing the older kit. The question mainly revolves around the generic infantry and command squads which do not have pictures in the unit entry. 

[jarms48]

2 hours ago, Shamansky said:

No one remembers Elysian drop troops. So sad :(

 

Elysian KT and troop choice would be cool.

[Emperor Ming]

5 hours ago, jarms48 said:

That's what etc is for. You want me to write out every regiment that had a regiment in the past? :P

Praetoria!

 

 

[apologist]

8 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I know Armageddon is fairly popular, but I think they’re either going to merge their kits with DKOK. They’re just so similar visually and minor enough I just can’t see GW going that direction.

It’s possible that a theoretical Steel Legion kit would be redesigned to distinguish them more obviously from the Death Korps. 
 

With that said, beyond the superficial long coats and gas masks, there are already a lot of differences between the two.

 

However, I don’t disagree with your broader point – and I think it’s unlikely that we’ll see lots of different Guard kits unless they have a role. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by apologist

[Santaclauswitz]

10 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

Praetoria!

 

 

Made to order? Yes please!

[Lord_Ikka]

One of the problems that GW has with IG is the massive amount of very diverse regiments that they put out years ago. While a boon as far as fans and modeling options go, for a business it is an issue due to production costs and shelf space- each regiment fights against the others as well as the other factions. I can see GW moving to making some of the more visually similar unit, like the greatcoat-clad DKoK/Steel Legion/Vahallan into an upgrade sprue-style pack where you get the standard DKoK squad (with detachable rebreather tubes) and upgrades for Steel Legion and Vahallan heads. Catachans, Mordians, Praetorians, etc..., those that are very distinct could be put in Kill-teams, allowing for a trickle of units for those that like said regiments.

 

Older Cadian squads will go out of production soon, as they would be fighting for space against the new Shock Trooper boxes. There's no point in keeping the older squads around anymore.