Help me break down my big Marine Chapter Choices for 2023 (with Pics).

[Prot]

So I'm come to a big cross roads. Those of you that know me from the forum know I do play fairly competitively but really I play all over the map with fun campaigns as well.

 

The cross roads I refer to is this: I have been trying to do a new chapter (at least one I haven't played in a few years!) and I have come to a point where I have done so many models from these various chapters that I now need to make a decision because I'm needing to paint units I am -sharing- between the chapters (IE: Impulsors, etc.)

 

NOTE: the below references only the actual chapters, not the alternative founding rules.

 

So here are my choices, and what *I* think of how they are playing out. I want your opinion from playing them if you think I'm off course.

 

NOTE if you don't want to see pictures, or my rambling, there is a Too Long Didn't Read section at the bottom with ratings.

 

 Space Wolves: 

 

- Lots of good quality unique units.  Very good in close combat, not lacking for anything, but perhaps suffering from codex creep (especially chaos). Favorite/Hightlight Units (most) Unique HQ's, Long Fangs, Psychic powers, Chapter trait, Wulfen, Cyberwolves (cheap). 

- Space Wolves Negatives: Slower to get to the fight. Some specialty units are of debatable value (Thunderwolf calvary? The Flyer?) Slow to the fight. No super apothecary.

 

 

 Black Templars:

 

- Favourite Units/Highlights: Predominantly Infantry based (can be good/bad). Solid Unique Troop (Crusaders). Great HQ's, particularly Chaplains. Vow flexibility. Expensive, but potent artefacts. Perhaps the biggest advantage of the Templars?

- Templar Negatives: Not particularly killy in Close Combat inherently. No Psychics. Sword Brethren are of suspect value right now.

 

 White Scars:

 

 

- White Scars Favourite Units : Bikes, speedy units, or units just in encirclement. ATV's/more Bikes, even new Speeders. Khan is a great, cheap HQ. Good psychics. Really 'fun' Chapter trait (but we can see from Red Corsairs it is not winning games)

- White Scars Negatives: Hit like a wet noodle. Lack of a real heavy hitter. No UNIQUE units. 

 

 Ultramarines.

 

*NOTE: this is my last/sold Ultramarines army. Above was my third, and final (?) Guilliman. 

 

- Ultramarines Favourites: Great unique HQ's. Primarch. (Probably one of my favourite models in the game.) 

- Ultra Negatives: I've done this army 3 times to several thousand points each. Near the bottom of the barrel competitively.

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Too Long Didn't Read section: 

 

Considerations: 

I don't think it could be Ultra again. It's a shame, I actually like their fiction and have held by them through thick and thin. The shame of it is the amount of older/first born units I have semi completed (Razorbacks/Devs/Centurions, etc). Below I give my rating for my favourite aspects of a marine army. (out of 5 stars)

 

- Black Templars. Sometimes I think these guys are just about better off (or just as good) with pure codex units using their special rules. Am I wrong in this? Aside from the HQ's, I've struggled to find regular units I want to keep in lists long term. It feels like Templars have some hard counters especially now with Chaos. (never mind Blood Angels and Custodes). Where I felt this army belongs in the foot slogging, raw close combat category, now it feels like it really should be 50/50 shooty/assault.  Agree/disagree? 

 

Competitive Factor:   ( There are worse marine armies)

 

Hobby Factor:       (Great HQ's. Unique units, and accessory sprue are top notch. But a LOT of infantry)

 

Unique rules/Units Factor:     (Good but not ultimately flexible enough. AoC takes a big bite out of this as well.)

 

Flat out Fun Play Factor:       (To play Templars is to subscribe to that Zealot lifestyle and it shows on the battlefield!)

 

 

- Space Wolves. More flexible than Templars? Who hits harder? I think it may be these guys. 

 

Competitive Factor:     (This might be contentious. I would give 3.5 stars if I could. I say this because of the better unit choices for shooty options, as well as a very good Psychic tree. However a lot of Chaos simply steals some of the best factors from Wolves.)

 

Hobby Factor:     (Nearly a tie with Templars. The colour creativity factor is solid compared to black. But the models are overall, far older. Basically it's a great scheme, but as unique as some of the kits are, they're quite dated.)

 

Unique rules/Units Factor:     ( +1 to hit, and exploding melee 6's is tremendous. I give this 4 stars because there are simply more relevant, unique choices here.)

 

Flat out Fun Play Factor:     When it comes to unique units, flexibility in list making this codex offers the most.

 

- White Scars. The thrill of the Hunt.

 

Competitive Factor:   (Could I give this codex half a star? This codex relies entirely on basic codex units, which may make sense since it does not have an official supplement at this time. But the chapter rules don't really work on super strong units, save perhaps foot slogging units. This army has some serious hard counters that render it very ineffective.)

 

Hobby Factor:    (Believe it or not, even with just one unique character, and one upgrade sprue, I find these guys refreshing: Bikers, speeders, ATV's... all units I rarely get to paint.)

 

Unique rules/Units Factor:    (+1 damage is only mediocre now. It only comes into play on T3 +. BUT the ability to advance, assault, retreat, and re-assault is a lot of fun. Encirclement (pertaining to any unit) is incredibly fun and fluff. Khan is a solid choice.)

 

Flat out Fun Play Factor:      (If I could give it 4.5 stars here I would. Ripping around the board is a lot of fun, and when it works, it works well. When it falls flat, it's pretty hard to come back from.)

 

 

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Conclusion:

 

As you can see, I don't know what to do. lol

I have to decide as I'm running out of models to share. I love doing classic legions (no spin offs or second foundings). I'd just like to ask what you folks think of my findings. Do you have a different understanding of some of these armies? 

 

I realize now how equal my ratings are overall, but the emphasis is very different depending the chapter.

 

When it comes to finished models I have the most of White Scars for sure. Then I think it's literally a tie for completed Templars and Wolves.  I'm down to the generic units that would define which Chapter I lean into for 2023. Stuff like my Centurions, Terminators, Impulsors, Vanguard, Eliminators, Eradicators, Bladeguard, all have to find the best Chapter. 

 

I'm curious what you think. At the very least, thanks for looking.

prot-bt-crusader-1.webp prot-bt-crusader-1.webp

[Sir Clausel]

I vote templars! I am nearing my first 2k painted with them and they are so goddamn fun to build and paint. Really love the knightly theme.

Gameplay wise i havent played them slot yet as i like to only play with painted stuff. But SM in general are weak so its would be choosing the lesser evil really. 

So i would go for where youd get the most fun out of playing them.

Your templars are awesomely painted so i would love to see more of them!

 

[Karhedron]

Of the choices you have presented, I would vote Space Wolves. They are one of the more Competitive Chapters but also one of the most varied. You have access to most stuff that regular Chapters get now. For options that we do not get, most of the equivalents are as good or better (Long Fangs > Devastators for example).

 

Also they offer more scope for creative modelling. Even monopose models can be turned into something fresh and different with a just a quick rummage in the bits box.

 

[Karhedron]

However, if you want my honest oppinion, it would "none of the above"! 

 

If I were starting a new Astartes army today, I would probably go for Dark Angels. Firstly, they are pretty competitive as far as Marines go at the moment. Only Blood Angels are scoring higher (although a 45% winrate is not exactly earth-shattering).

 

Secondly, they have almost as many unique kits and units as Space Wolves. Deathwing and Ravenwing Knights and command squads. Unique flyers and speeders and some pretty decent special Characters. The Deathwing and Ravenwing formation rules mean that you can practically field 3 different armies from the same codex or mix and match elements however you see fit. It also helps that each element has its own distinctive colour scheme so if you get tired of painting Caliban green, you can switch to bone for a while and work on the Deathwing.

 

Lastly, rumour has it that the Lion may be returning at the start of 10th edition. Now this is only a rumour so I would not base my decision soley on this but it would certainly be a sweet bonus if it does happen. GW have been knocking it out of the park lately with their character models so I am sure he will get an awesome mini if/when he does awaken. And if the model leaves you cold, his FW incarnation is pretty sweet.

 

[Lord_Ikka]

Competitively, White Scars are currently going to be the worst choice. Ultras/BT/SW all have unique characters and units that give them some more options than the basic codex offerings. With Ultras out of the picture since you don't want to do another army of them, your choices become BT or SW- competitively they are roughly even. Space Wolves have more unique options, while Black Templars have some interesting mechanics. 

 

Hobby-wise, I think Space Wolves win out over Black Templars, because of their large array of interesting units. Once you finish with the Templars HQs and a couple of Crusader squads, you are basically down to regular codex units without any variation. Wolves allow you to not only make codex units visually distinct by adding fur/runes/extra Fenrisian flair (which the BT allow as well, to be fair), but their unique units are more comprehensive.

 

Of your choices, I'd go with the Space Wolves. More options in both units to play and deeper hobby chances. @Karhedron does make a good point about the DA, and as a DA fanboy myself I'd lean there, but the Space Puppies aren't bad at all. 

[Prot]

Those are really good points and the Dark Angels weren’t on the menu but it has been a very long time since I played them. You guys might have just come up with the ultimate solution. Wolves are definitely up there.  Actually have never really had a full army of them. Looks like I may be selling something soon. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Templars ?

 

LOL

[Galron]

None of the above. You have some amazing paint skills, use it to do some lesser known chapters that you can still compete with but wont be just another wolf player or templar. Carcharodons would be pretty outstanding and you could field them as either Wolves or Templars with no problem. You seem to like blues, do Nova Marines, Marines errant or go for a challenging  chapter and do Fire Hawks..

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Create your own Successor Chapter from scratch.  Your lore, your color scheme, your Chapter Traits, whole shebang.  You can even crowd-source ideas from the Fraters.

[9x19 Parabellum]

I'm voting for Black Templars!

[infyrana]

I'd vote wolves, but as a grim dark paint scheme with more of a 30k look and feel.  Would enjoy seeing how your version of it would look:)

[Ulfast]

I love your UM so I would vote them but as you are not so intersted in them I would instead chose White scars. Cool army, not so common and I think you can make them better. 

[Prot]

I'm playing both my BT's and Wolves right now back and forth.

 

Last game was my Wolves and it happened to be vs. the Blood Angels ( a semi-regular opponent).

 

Here's the thing I like about Wolves; Very potent Chapter Traits. Perhaps better than BT. I mean re-rolling charges is great, but the ability to hit with hammers/fists at normal WS is another level. Also the exploding 6's is incredible when you really need it. It's like a bonus, but when it proc's it's pretty darn hard to ignore the value. I realize with a successor you can double explode 6's.

 

Finally the unique units. The Thunderwolf Calvary were not so good, but Sky claws surprised me. Great value for cheap.  The Wulfen were fantastic actually. So annoying that he had to go chase them down (I put them in the hunt). 

 

Actually the characters too. It's been a while but I quickly was reminded how good Murderfang can be if he gets an escort. Bjorn is just great all around. Auras/shooting/close combat. Maybe the biggest disappointment is Ragnar. He is great around low level thuggery, but he struggles against strong opponents.

 

Black Templars have good character support, but the rest feels hard to figure out here. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Ulfast said:

I love your UM so I would vote them but as you are not so intersted in them I would instead chose White scars. Cool army, not so common and I think you can make them better. 

 

You know I love Ultra's but I've done 3 gigantic armies of them! I would do them again if they showed any sign of getting some life from GW but right now they're in a pretty bad place... worse that most marines, unfortunately.

 

[Karhedron]

Yeah, Ragnar excels at blending MEQs but SWs don't really have any problem there. Fortunately we have a range of excellent Characters such as Njal and our Dreads. We also have some pretty good WLTs and Relics to create our own.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Karhedron

[Prot]

24 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Yeah, Ragnar excels at blending MEQs but SWs don't really have any problem there. Fortunately we have a range of excellent Characters such as Njal and our Dreads. We also have some pretty good WLTs and Relics to create our own.

 

Plus even the psychics... obviously BT's can't do Psychics, but the ability to 'cast' fights Last is fantastic. It came in huge a couple of times. 

 

 

[Sir Clausel]

You could make Black templars and use them as Space wolves actually. I just remembered that i have done so myself(old firstborn army)

Makes for some fun conversions(i made some thunderwolves with some demigryphs from fantasy). That way you can play what ever you want. Most space marine chapters have a way where you can fit unique units from other chapters in.