Do you think firstborn marines will be discontinued?

[The Eye of Damocles]

Hi Everyone, I hope all is well in your sector of Space. 

I am new to this forum and I am asking the question again about firstborn marines becoming obsolete.

There were discussions about this when primaris marines were introduced but I am asking again owing to there being 10th edition and a new marine codex on the horizon.

 

For most chapters, potentially losing firstborn is not a problem. For Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Deathwatch I see it not only as a problem but a tradegy of the hobby for collectors of those factions. 

 

At least 50% of my deathwatch army is firstborn. They are better at melee with all of the options and I have modelled loads of them for my personal enjoyment. Marines, terminators, bikers and van vets. 

Deathwatch are struggling at the moment but I find having a mix of firstborn and primaris complements the Deathwatch nicely.

 

Do we think it's likely they will have rules discontinued? I want to keep up to current editions I have no real interest in playing older editions just so I can use certain models though.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

[Karhedron]

The honest answer is that nobody knows. People have been claiming GW are going to ditch Firstborn ever since the start of 8th and it hasn't happened yet.  Anyone who claims to know one way or the other is just giving their own opinion.

[infyrana]

A very doom title, perhaps add a question mark so it's not a statement of fact?

 

I hope they will continue to allow firstborns in 40k, but I will await official news before worrying since we're so far along...  maybe they will split them to their own codex, that's my hope.

[Brother Tyler]

The title has been edited to more accurately reflect the discussion, and the topic has been moved to the Adeptus Astartes forum (from the Deathwatch sub-forum).

[N1SB]

Brother Eye, welcome to Bolter & Chainsword.

 

As to your question, while I don't have a crystal ball, I think this: Firstborn will NOT be discontinued UNTIL GW has better Primaris alternative to sell you.  At which point, their rules will be so awesome you won't want to look back, because GW wants to sell you their new stuff enthusiastically.

 

Ironically, Horus Heresy being the 3rd flagship product line might actually extend their support for Firstborn, so that they could sell them for both 30k and 40k.

[Xenith]

Games Workshop has just listed a bunch of older firstborn models made to order on their website, dated 18th December 2022. They've also just pumped out a whole metric grox-ton of firstborn models, weapons and armour in the Horus Heresy range, which can of course be used in 40k, with the Kratos, a new firstborn tank in plastic, receiving 40k rules.

 

They're not going anywhere for the time being. 

[The Eye of Damocles]

Thank you for the reassurance. Yes I left the title in a more ambiguous way as clickbait, apologies. In the forum I'm in for my other 40k faction, unless you do that then no one reads your query because there are so many posts. I'll be more clear in future. 

[BadgersinHills]

Welcome to the forum.

 

I think Firstborn will still be around since the Horus Heresy has got new plastic models.

[Xenith]

If you think about it also, even if GW did plan on killing off all firstborn and replacing them with Primaris equivalents, it's going to take a long, long time. Primaris are what, 6 years old now, and they don't have a single Primaris unit for arguably their most popular chapter, Blood Angels. This is rumoured to change next year though, but nothing is concrete. With Deathwatch being one of the newest model ranges (2015/2016?) It's unlikely that they will be phased out until after SW, DA, BA, etc have all their specific units phased out, so I think you would have at least another 6+ years worth of model support. Even then, they wont remove the models from the codex - BA still have firstborn death company, even with a Primaris death company option. 

[OttoVonAwesome]

Look at what's happened to the Guard codex and you get an idea of where firstborn are headed. First they'll be cut from the codex and then a lack of support will make them unusable. If you look at the state of the FW tanks and Krieg list it's pretty bad. Strategems no longer work, no regimental keyword, can't tell what orders the officers get. No real garuntee any of it will go to legends (wich is a type of death in itself) judging from the current state of the many cut units from the Guard codex. Kinda hard to still be optimistic now about Firstborn even with the heresy range keeping the units alive. I mean I can buy engineers and death riders right now just can't actually really use them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Blood Angels have Death Company Primaris Intercessors now.

Edited December 22, 2022 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Lord_Ikka]

Firstborn as models won't go away- Horus Heresy is now one of GW's core games and will continue to pump out/use Firstborn. We are seeing a large number of Firstborn units coming out in plastic for Heresy that were formerly FW-only, so Firstborn will never fully be gone from the modeling side of things (or hobby in general with HH being fairly popular).

 

Firstborn as units in 40k...? That is different and a difficult thing to really forecast. Right now there are plenty of not only regular SM units that don't have a Primaris equivalent (Terminators, Vanguard/Sternguard vets, jumppack Assault Squads, etc...), but also a ton of chapter-specific squads that would need replacing for the big three (BA, DA, SW). Doing all of the chapter-specific stuff would be roughly the same as completely re-doing another faction's full line in terms of the amount of units/work that would be involved. My thought is that GW will slowly begin phasing in Primaris chapter-specific units starting next edition, with stuff like Primaris Deathwing Knights, Saunguinary Guard, and WolfGuard appearing and replacing their old Firstborn predecessors. It will be a slow process, but eventually Firstborn will phase out of 40k in gameplay terms, much like they are in the lore (with the Rubicon Primaris becoming much safer all manner of SM are transitioning to full Primaris). Best guess, Firstborn will be gone, or near gone, as of 11th edition, with all the older kits replaced with Primaris equivalents. 

[The Unseen]

I expect that a lot of firstborn units are going to eventually get rolled into legends (Scouts for example, the kit is ancient and we have like 4 sneaky primaris units occupying their niche), others will just continue to be neglected to the point that they're functionally worthless. Other stuff I imagine/hope/fear are going to get combined into one profile so you can technically use either line, like for the troops. It'll probably get called something ridiculous like Tactical Intercessor Squad. Cause right now the marine dex feels horrifically bloated because its almost 2 codexes that don't interact with each smashed into 1, with a bunch of stratagems that only effect either half, or in a lot of cases a single unit. Similar problem to Admech, in that all the power is contained in one half as well. So right now we have a huge lineup of units that either have good strats (Transhuman, Fight/Shoot Twice, Autowound on 6s to hit, etc) OR have good datasheets (Vanguard Veterans, Terminators, BA specialist units) but never both at once. Along with the utterly ridiculous transport restrictions.

[BrainFireBob]

I think the original plan was to terminate Firstborn. 

 

I also think reaction to nuking the Old World and backlash to Primaris caught the change-heads offguard and empowered the stay-heads at GW HQ. But Primaris solved the "complete line" problem Marines had, so aborting was not an option.

 

I would guess that Horus Heresy is the new solution. Continue with existing Firstborn rules support, migrate new kits to Heresy/Scouring, keep all new 40k specific Marine releases Primaris. Maybe move tjings like Razorbacks to Chaos to "expand the range" for "free". 

Edited December 22, 2022 by BrainFireBob

[Bouargh]

I am afraid the answer will be som kind of "Yes" but maybe not a definitive "Yes".

 

I feel like we went from a potential initial plan of axing them down completly to a smoother transition, leading to a progressive substitution or translation of models to the HH product range, either directly or by sustitution and redesign. SO the classic SM as we knez them in past eds will disappear from the main 40k streamline to be shifted to something more HH oriented and redesignes. this is ny feeling.

 

Now, when?.... big question mark. I guess it could tae a few years as the process should not be too violent in order to avoid a kind of crisis sucha as the AoS introduction. And colapso in sales.

 

[phandaal]

As people have noted, Mk 6 Space Marine associated with the Horus Heresy system will continue to be produced.

 

If we are talking about the Mk 7 Marines most people associate with OG Space Marines, then yes those will probably go away.

 

Primaris are a range refresh for 40k, done in the most bonkers way possible.

[Marshal Reinhard]

As long as 30k exists (and its kinda pointless to make that into a conditional - they can't really back out of the heresy now), then no, it won't happen. Will they be moved out of 40k eventually, staying only with the legends (and 30k) system? Quite possibly, but not definately.

 

Personal theories: Will we possibly see neo-classical primaris units in the future? (primaris tacticals, etc). 

Will the primaris distinction go away eventually when everything is 'new'? Hopefully.

[Bryan Blaire]

Since we regularly have this discussion it seems like, and we have a statement from someone that was actually inside GW when all the happenings around Primaris were going on, I’ll quote myself/my thoughts here:

On 11/29/2022 at 7:30 PM, Bryan Blaire said:

I believe the interview that Doghouse is talking about is this one by The Painting Phase group (which Peachy has joined):

 

The Primaris discussion starts at about the 40:30 time mark.

 

I had a different interpretation of that discussion than Doghouse though - it sounds more like to me that GW specifically made the decision not to just do away with the “First Born”/classic Marines (God am I glad to hear that Peachy also hates that term - glad it wasn’t a monolithic “liking” going on in the company) to allow people to continue to use them (trying to please all people tends to please none of them though), and that the scale creep to bring the classic Marines up in size might be covered in Heroes.  He noted something along the lines of (paraphrasing here, not specifically quoting) “things getting resculpted to be just shorter than Primaris in things like Kill Team and Blackstone Fortress”.  The adjusted scale specifically is keeping classic Marines around in this way in 40K, not phasing them out.

 

He also seemed to indicate (in my interpretation) that GW intends you to be able to use Primaris and classic Astartes together in the same army list, so I don’t believe they were looking at separating them out into non-mixing armies (at least not at the time Peachy left/he can’t talk about it yet) - he specifically references armies where you have both types of units in them.

 

What I gathered is that they probably aren’t going to redo 40K classic Marine kits - but the plans at the time he left wasn’t to just not support them from the sounds of things (or he can’t talk about it at this point) - and he thinks that most players will naturally gravitate toward the new scaled and proportioned Primaris as “better.”  That doesn’t mean it was GW’s specific goal - I think conversely GW intentionally made the choice to continue to support the classic Marines in rules from the sounds of Peachy’s comments.

 

Where I think things have gone is that we’ve already seen some of the rescaled classic Marines - they are the Horus Heresy Mk6 kit and bits that come with it, and as Peachy said, the Heroes line, along with Castellan Crowe and the “indeterminate” Black Templar Castellan.  As long as they keep the classic Marine rules in a 40K Codex (whether they split the books or not), then you can use those models to represent the classic Marines, and you could even use older models, the rescaled classic Astartes, and Primaris Astartes all the the same army if you really wanted (as long as you don’t have “allying” restrictions).

 

Personally, I don’t see any reason that GW couldn’t make 40K rules for any of the HH models they want to include and then you could use them for anything from the Heresy forward (i.e. if you wanted to play in the 33rd Millennium or the modern setting with an extreme relic), it just remains to be seen if they will…

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Will they be moved out of 40k eventually, staying only with the legends (and 30k) system? Quite possibly, but not definately.

 

This is what I assume most people are asking about when they ask if "Firstborn" are going away.

 

OP seems concerned with his Space Marine models remaining useable in 40k, not whether Horus Heresy models will continue being made.

[Bryan Blaire]

12 minutes ago, phandaal said:

This is what I assume most people are asking about when they ask if "Firstborn" are going away.

 

OP seems concerned with his Space Marine models remaining useable in 40k, not whether Horus Heresy models will continue being made.

I think that question is more nuanced - if the folks you play with are strict official models only type folks, then depending on what happens rules-wise, you may not be able to play with old models.  If the folks you play with are more open to various things, then you can likely keep playing with models forever.

 

Personally, I think it would be a lot better if Marines were just Marines.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Bryan Blaire

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The models used for 30k typically aren’t from the 40K range.

[Djangomatic82]

GW missed a big opportunity with the scale update/range refresh by going with the Primaris route in the way they did, both commercially and Lore wise.

 

They should have made the big project that Belisarius spent the last 10k working on, not attempting to improve the Emperors work, but expanding on the one GIGANTIC flaw in the original design.

 

The big reveal of the Great Work should have been that Belisarius had successfully created FEMALE Space Marines, all in the new 32mm scale.

1. Lore wise, Belisariuse would have just DOUBLED the available stock from which chapters could draw new recruits from.

2. Commercially, GW would have added representation for the other 50% of humanity that they could sell Marines to.

Win Win all around, but, no, we ended up with knock off Star Craft minis.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

No thank you.

[Lord_Ikka]

Back on topic please- any talk of female space marines inevitably derails a thread and is not pertinent to this discussion.

[phandaal]

5 hours ago, Bryan Blaire said:

I think that question is more nuanced - if the folks you play with are strict official models only type folks, then depending on what happens rules-wise, you may not be able to play with old models.  If the folks you play with are more open to various things, then you can likely keep playing with models forever.

 

If the people asking these questions had a group that does not care what models they use, they would not be here asking if their models will become obsolete.

5 hours ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Personally, I think it would be a lot better if Marines were just Marines.

 

100% agreed.