Do you think firstborn marines will be discontinued?

[Tacitus]

On 3/14/2023 at 12:06 AM, Sword Brother Adelard said:

 

That's not what he said. He's saying that he can see why things are bloaty despite liking them.

 

 

"there are several strats I do like"

"being a part of a completely separate mechanic outside of core rules, faction rules, sub faction rules, and datasheet rules, means that they’re bloaty"

 

Despite liking a FEW of them.  The overall message is not liking the system at all. 

[Tacitus]

On 3/14/2023 at 12:49 AM, Blindhamster said:

see: my post above.

I don’t dislike veterans, in fact veteran intercessors were a thing I wanted for blood angels before they were a thing for them. I loved and dedicated a lot of time to my other veteran models in the past too.

however, realistically at this point, all that separates the four veteran units I listed, is weapon load outs and that could all be handled easily in a single datasheet. The final unit would be more interesting too as you could even make a breacher type of unit or a ranged jump pack unit by being able to mix and match. And at the same time, you’d reduce the datasheet count by 3 (hell, if you allowed master crafted melee weapons, you could merge bladeguard too).

 

similarly, you could merge apothecary and primaris apothecary etc, with no real loss to the end user. 

Not really - in the first place they're working pretty hard at not mix-and-matching multiple stat profiles in one datasheet.  Adjust-able stat profiles are also extremely few.  We're not going to see If in Power Armor then then this, Else that. 

 

They're really not going to next multiple If Then Else modifiers - If Primaris +1A, and Primaris key word, if Jump Pack 12" move, if Gravis Add 1w and +1T and so on and so on.   

 

Nor does consolidating 3 datasheets into one reduce "bloat" - you still need X column inches for the rules, and it doesn't remove units from the shelves.

[Marshal Reinhard]

42 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

They're really not going to next multiple If Then Else modifiers - If Primaris +1A, and Primaris key word, if Jump Pack 12" move, if Gravis Add 1w and +1T and so on and so on.   

Agreed. Here it'd help a lot if the keyword just goes away.

 

But even that only goes so far.

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

Nor does consolidating 3 datasheets into one reduce "bloat" - you still need X column inches for the rules, and it doesn't remove units from the shelves.

Which is why it depends on peoples' definitions of what bloat is.

 

Models? Datasheets? Options?

 

Is a Devastator Squad with its various heavy weapon options on one Datasheet, in one box set, more bloated than a Hellblaster Squad and a Desolation Squad (and theoretical Melta Squad and Grav Squad) which is basically a Dev Squad split into two wholly separate boxes and two wholly separate Datasheets despite being functionally a Primaris Devastator Squad equivalent?

 

Edit: Not even trying to naysay Primaris particularly, but it's a perfect example to ask what bloat is. Bloat is different depending on the person you ask, and one reason why I find it objectionable to blame Firstborn for bloat.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Kallas
Clarification.

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

Not really - in the first place they're working pretty hard at not mix-and-matching multiple stat profiles in one datasheet.  Adjust-able stat profiles are also extremely few.  We're not going to see If in Power Armor then then this, Else that. 

 

They're really not going to next multiple If Then Else modifiers - If Primaris +1A, and Primaris key word, if Jump Pack 12" move, if Gravis Add 1w and +1T and so on and so on.   

 

Nor does consolidating 3 datasheets into one reduce "bloat" - you still need X column inches for the rules, and it doesn't remove units from the shelves.

We'll have to agree to disagree on if removing 3 sheets would remove bloat or not.

I didn't mention anything about If Primaris x, because I do believe the rumours that that keyword will just go honestly.

As for the other If x, that's literally already a thing on veteran intercessors, just its needlessly more complicated than what I proposed. You could literally have such a unit fit on one page (you're more or less there with Sword Brethren for BT already), you also probably wouldn't have 4 pages of writeup for the units either in the lore sections.

 

as far as characters go (I assume thats what the bit about jump packs, gravis etc is about), hard to say as thats exactly how it worked for.... 7 editions. 8th/9th did many great things, removing USRs and Armouries were not among them - particularly in a world where they push app use more an more.

[Captain Idaho]

To me bloat is anything that slows down the game excessively without adding sufficient value. It's of course subjective, but most people agree that there is a problem with excessive rules in the game, particularly for more casual or newer players.

[Orange Knight]

I can believe that the keyword will indeed go, or perhaps that the limitations it currently imposes will be scaled back.

 

There is definitely a case for some old models to continue indefinitely, and I actually think a new codex could add some further kits from the HH range.

 

The Drop Pod should be used by Primaris (I personally don't much care for it as I prefer a slower playstyle with my Fists, but it's thematically very cool). They COULD make a new kit for it, but the current model is decent enough in size and scale.

 

I really would not miss the Rhino, Predator or Landraider. The Rhino chassis is tiny and doesn't fit the Primaris. The Impulsor is marginally better in scale, but still too small. I actually like the fact that it only fits 6 models.

The Landraider is an old kit, and it's really not that great. The Spartan is absolutely fantastic however. The Spartan and Kratos are probably the best Astartes plastic tank models, and both could exist as Lords of War in the codex. Rare, perhaps limited to one per army, but effective.

 

Centurions, considered ugly by many, actually look good alongside other Primaris. The kit is big and chunky and they are notably bigger than Aggressors. They could simply be updated to having Primaris pilots in the lore and left as they are. 

 

 

[Captain Idaho]

Oooo you lost me at Land Raider kit not being great.

[Arikel]

 

2 hours ago, Tacitus said:

   

 

Nor does consolidating 3 datasheets into one reduce "bloat" - you still need X column inches for the rules, and it doesn't remove units from the shelves.

 

I had previously mentioned combining data sheets that are essentially the same character/tank with different equipment. Apparently this is too complicated, so it's better to have 7 data sheets for every type of captain instead, as an example.  If the primaris keyword is going away, then this could also absolutely be used to remove first born units from the shelves as by removing the keyword you are removing the need to have different stats for sm and firstborn units, marines are marines again. Consolidate the captain, Chaplain librarian and tech marine sheets into one for each type, sell the old kits until they don't have them anymore, then just make new kits

 

The same could be done for assault and tac squads. Stats don't have to be different, as marines are all marines (no primaris keyword). Combine tacticals and intercessors into tactical intercessor squads with options for the sarge, a special and a heavy. Drop the old boltgun profile completely and maybe trim out one or two of the new bolt rifle profiles. Assault intercessors could be combined with the assault squad, especially if they release some primaris jetpacks. Add some options for specials, pistols and melee weapons. Sell out the old tac and assault squads until there is no more stock, don't make any more.

 

It's pretty simple, and as long as the rules allow for people to keep using their old models, most firstborn lovers would be happy. That is one big stickler for the people with large firstborn collections (I have a more than a half company built and enough in the pile to finish it).  I will be sad to see themretired from being sold, but if I can continue to use them and the rules support is there that is really what I want. Consolidate data sheets, make sure those data sheets have most (if not all) of the old load outs so they are compatible with the old mini line, and move on with the new models replacing the old ones in store.

 

 

[Orange Knight]

53 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Oooo you lost me at Land Raider kit not being great.

 

It's not ugly by any means. It's an old kit and not fun to assemble however.

 

And the Spartan is simply superior in every way and does the same thing. That's what I'm saying.

 

I mean... look at this thing!

 

 

If the Primaris keyword is removed, we'll have a bunch of heavy tanks to chose from.

 

The Repulsor, The Repulsor Executioner... and ideally the Spartan tank. Heavier than both, more armour and lots of weapons. If we were keeping tracked vehicles in the long run, the new 30k kits would be my personal choice.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Orange Knight

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Primaris should be able to ride in Termites as well.

[Marshal Reinhard]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

 

It's not ugly by any means. It's an old kit and not fun to assemble however.

 

And the Spartan is simply superior in every way and does the same thing. That's what I'm saying.

 

I mean... look at this thing!

 

*snip*

 

If the Primaris keyword is removed, we'll have a bunch of heavy tanks to chose from.

 

The Repulsor, The Repulsor Executioner... and ideally the Spartan tank. Heavier than both, more armour and lots of weapons. If we were keeping tracked vehicles in the long run, the new 30k kits would be my personal choice.

Oof, the plastic version can go with lascannons in the center hull too? Sooo many lascannons.

[Evil Eye]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I really would not miss the Rhino, Predator or Landraider. The Rhino chassis is tiny and doesn't fit the Primaris.

The Rhino being too small to fit 10 Marines is a long-standing thing, but honestly I wouldn't want it replaced with a bigger kit. Putting aside issues of true-scaling vs representative-scaling/the sheer size a true-scaled 10-man Rhino would have to be, the Rhino chassis is a ubiquitous kit used by lots of armies, and forms the basis for some fairly recent kits too. If they made a new, bigger Rhino (and Predator, and Whirlwind, and Vindicator, etc etc) then a huge number of people would be forced to replace their vehicles due to them suddenly being too small.

The Rhino chassis, technically undersized though it is, is far too ubiquitous to drastically resize or do away with. Chaos Marine and Sororitas both use it, and the HH Deimos Rhino is basically the same size as the current gen Rhino. Invalidate the Rhino and you've effectively deleted a massive amount of players' vehicle pools, including some very recent kits, which even GW isn't stupid enough to do. It's one of those things that is just a part of 40K that isn't worth "fixing" for the harm it will cause.

 

As for the Land Raider, a new kit would be nice as it is a bit of a sod to build due to mold wear (and the less said about having half an interior the better!) but I'd want a new Land Raider. As in, the classic Phobos pattern. Extra build options for Crusader, Redeemer and some of the FW variants would also be nice. The Spartan is cool, but it's not a Land Raider.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

17 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

The Spartan is cool, but it's not a Land Raider.

Too right!

It's Land's Raider

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Honestly it’d be nice to get Prinmaris equivalent rhinos and drop pods. The Impulsor being a RZB equivalent.

[Captain Idaho]

@Orange Knight Ok you got me back at Spartan.

[Kallas]

43 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Honestly it’d be nice to get Prinmaris equivalent rhinos and drop pods. The Impulsor being a RZB equivalent.

It's strange to me that they made the Impulsor that way: they could easily have it be 10 capacity with no weapon mount/shield dome, and 6 capacity as it currently is when it is upgraded. Then it can serve either purpose.

 

Would be simple enough from a rules perspective, though I suspect they didn't/aren't going to do that because then they can't sell an extra kit.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Who knows why they do what they do… 

[Blindhamster]

I’m always glad about impulsor capacity, my brain can accept 6 in it easier than 10 lol

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

The Spartan is cool, but it's not a Land Raider.

 

It's full name is literally the "Land Raider Spartan"

 

The way I see it, there is now a more impressive plastic variant of the Land Raider. Just as the Land Raider was once replaced and updated with a bigger kit (Land Raider Phobos), so it can be again. 

 

This is just my personal opinion. If we are to have a Landraider in the next codex, the Spartan would be a better choice. It certainly is in terms of Aesthetics.

[Orange Knight]

As for the Rhino size, the issue here is that the tanks of other factions are now too big by comparison.

 

I think the Rhino can work with a Sister's army, but it doesn't look correctly scaled with the Astartes at all. This is doubly so as the Primaris in particular do have bigger kits - both infantry and vehicles.

The Redemptor towers over Marines on the battlefield, just as a Dreadnought should. The Rhino is like a clown car on the tabletop. 

 

I actually think the Gladiator could also have been bigger - closer to a Sicaran.

[lansalt]

The problem with making space marine vehicles correctly scaled is that even a Rhino would be the size of a Land Raider at minimum. They're made to fit gaming tables and their size it's an abstraction.

[Orange Knight]

4 minutes ago, lansalt said:

The problem with making space marine vehicles correctly scaled is that even a Rhino would be the size of a Land Raider at minimum. They're made to fit gaming tables and their size it's an abstraction.

 

They don't have to be correctly sized, none of the vehicles really are, but the Rhino chassis in particular is far, far too small. There is a limit to the abstraction, especially in a game like 40k that is so heavily reliant on the aesthetics of the tabletop armies.

 

The Rhino was small before, but with the new Primaris range that is significantly bigger across the board, it really doesn't work.

 

It does look better with Sisters, I will say that.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Kallas]

15 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

This is just my personal opinion. If we are to have a Landraider in the next codex, the Spartan would be a better choice. It certainly is in terms of Aesthetics.

I very much prefer the Land Raider Phobos aesthetic. The Spartan has the classic Land Raider vibes and that's fine, but the exposed tracks don't do it for me.

Besides, the Spartan is a heavier LR variant.

 

 

[Orange Knight]

10 minutes ago, Kallas said:

I very much prefer the Land Raider Phobos aesthetic. The Spartan has the classic Land Raider vibes and that's fine, but the exposed tracks don't do it for me.

Besides, the Spartan is a heavier LR variant.

 

 

 

Fair, I understand the visual preference is purely subjective.

 

My thinking does come back to my point about redundancy and bloat in a future codex.

 

The Landraider, outside of the look, is functionally not different enough from a Repulsor. The current loyalist rules suck for both Tanks, but consider them in the next codex, especially if the keyword limitations are removed. There is more room for the Repulsors to excell by virtue of being Hover Tanks (even if GW screwed up their rules completely in 9th). BTW I do actually think the Landraider is a better looking tank than the regular Repulsor, but the Executioner with the massive cannon has it beat.

 

The Spartan on the other hand does offer something new - It is a higher weight class than the Repulsors. I would prefer to have access to this 20 capacity transport in the codex.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Orange Knight