Do you think firstborn marines will be discontinued?

[Kallas]

To be fair, if loyalist Raiders get the same buffs as Chaos ones (which they should, since it wasn't based on being daemonically possessed or anything) then they're actually pretty decent.

[Marshal Reinhard]

29 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The Spartan on the other hand does offer something new - It is a higher weight class than the Repulsors. I would prefer to have access to this 20 capacity transport in the codex.

Even with my classic marine crusade, I never got a standard Landraider, but I did get 2 spartan assault tanks - it was the only land based marine transport that could carry a full crusader squad (this being before the Mastodon).

 

Annoying to be back to square 1 again in that particular regard, so having the spartan being an option again would certainly not be bad....

[Tacitus]

On 3/15/2023 at 11:36 AM, Orange Knight said:

 

They don't have to be correctly sized, none of the vehicles really are, but the Rhino chassis in particular is far, far too small. There is a limit to the abstraction, especially in a game like 40k that is so heavily reliant on the aesthetics of the tabletop armies.

 

The Rhino was small before, but with the new Primaris range that is significantly bigger across the board, it really doesn't work.

 

It does look better with Sisters, I will say that.

The Rhino also didn't really grow at the same rate as the Space Marines. 

 

I'd love a Primaris Drop Pod.  If they ever make Transporting not suck, I'd also like a Primaris Rhino, but until Transporting isn't a double tax, Meh. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

On 3/15/2023 at 3:10 PM, Kallas said:

To be fair, if loyalist Raiders get the same buffs as Chaos ones (which they should, since it wasn't based on being daemonically possessed or anything) then they're actually pretty decent.

Makes me chuckle thinking that it's a bit of a bone to us chaos players for having to wait 2y for the second wound in 9E, but that really just goes to show how wild the equipment/stat ride has been this edition.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, Tacitus said:

The Rhino also didn't really grow at the same rate as the Space Marines. 

 

I'd love a Primaris Drop Pod.  If they ever make Transporting not suck, I'd also like a Primaris Rhino, but until Transporting isn't a double tax, Meh. 

I mean we have a primaris rhino…sort of.

 

god emperor I hate the impulsor lol.

[Tacitus]

10 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I mean we have a primaris rhino…sort of.

 

god emperor I hate the impulsor lol.

Not really, we have the Razorback, the Hunter/Stalker, and the Whirlwind, but no Rhino. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

Not really, we have the Razorback, the Hunter/Stalker, and the Whirlwind, but no Rhino. 

Impulsor doesn’t have the firepower to classify as a razorback.

 

we have a rhino with a transport capacity of 6. Which Tbf most primaris squads tend to only be 3-5 models.

 

like I said I hate the impulsor, it fills neither role remotely well.

[Tacitus]

24 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Impulsor doesn’t have the firepower to classify as a razorback.

 

we have a rhino with a transport capacity of 6. Which Tbf most primaris squads tend to only be 3-5 models.

 

like I said I hate the impulsor, it fills neither role remotely well.

Rhino with a half size transport capacity sounds like a Razorback to me - and the tops turn them into the various Rhino hull tanks - Hunter, Stalker, Razorback, Whirlwind with a few tradeoffs.  The shooting is worse for keeping the transport capacity is all.  - fewer shots, weaker shots, losing indirect, etc.  We don't have the Full Squad transport.  And most squads are 3-5 because the game is pushing MSU.  The only benefit to a 10 man squad is dying faster to BLAST. 

[Nephaston]

Just you all wait, they'll probably release an impulsor with a capacity of 3 and even more guns as what they deem the razorback equivalent.

 

That said the best part of the impulsor is how it can feasibly visually fit 6 marines, unlike the rhino which has, afaik, never been to scale.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Impulsor doesn’t have the firepower to classify as a razorback.

The Black Templars one does. 

[Kallas]

3 hours ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

The Black Templars one does. 

To be fair, all of the Impulsor turret options are reasonable analogues of the Razorback:

• The Bellicastus Missile Array is roughly equivalent to the Twin Lascannon, sacrificing raw AT firepower for flexibility
• The Ironhail Skytalon Array is equivalent to the Twin Assault Cannon, giving up Strength and overall ROF for range
• The Orbital Comms Array and the Shield Dome provide options separate from the Razorback

Either way, the Impulsor's options as well as the 6 capacity make it pretty clearly a Razorback equivalent. Not quite sure how anyone (not you specifically Adelard!) could really argue against the clear design similarities, even if they're not a perfect 1:1 match.

[Orange Knight]

I'm hoping that the Multi Melta will become available to all Chapters going forward.

 

That makes the Impulsor significantly more threatening than a Razorback (it has a bunch of other weapons too), but the cost is also higher.

 

I really hope GW can make vehicles compelling again in 10th.

 

I don't want to see the Rhino chassis tanks used by Primaris simply because the model is far too small, as has been mentioned above that it was too small alongside the classic Marines and now the problem has been compounded. 

 

I have no problem with tracked vehicles remaining, I love the design of many. I think the classic Landraider has aged alot as I mentioned prior, and we should be making use of the Spartan. Some of the new HH kits are so good, we should champion their inclusion in a 40k codex.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Honestly, the current situation with free weapon options feels like the BT supplement came with an accidental free cheat code. Missile launcher multimelta and invul save via vow at pretty standard cost.

 

Obviously wont last so im not remodeling my one that has the shield on it.

[lansalt]

33 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I don't want to see the Rhino chassis tanks used by Primaris simply because the model is far too small, as has been mentioned above that it was too small alongside the classic Marines and now the problem has been compounded.

Maybe making Rhinos only being able to carry 6 primaris marines could be a solution.

[Kallas]

32 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I think the classic Landraider has aged alot as I mentioned prior, and we should be making use of the Spartan.

I like the Spartan, but it's a different design, much closer to a Proteus than the current Phobos and variants. I think the current placing of the Spartan is appropriate, in the Lords of War, while the Phobos is better as a Heavy Support choice, and trying to mash them together/replace one is not really necessary.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I personally want the Rhino with assault intercessors and all. Like with anything, if you don't want to use it, you don't have to. I think we should have the option still, especially with that nice new Deimos rhino kit.

Edited March 20, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Orange Knight]

I wonder what they'll do. I just had a look at the 9th edition codex and it is such a hefty book. The sheer volume of units is silly. And this doesn't include the dozen supplements books.

 

It's such an unwieldy faction, and it's nor friendly to beginners (it can be in terms of entry cost, but it's overwhelming for actual play)

 

I'm becoming more and more cynical about the health of the codex. The more I look at it the more I believe that any unit that has a Primaris equivalent should be retired. The equivalents don't have to be identical, they just have to fill a role and do a particular job.

[WrathOfTheLion]

If the keyword is removed, then the rule distinction is removed, and the separate character entries can be cleared out. That right there would save like 15 datasheets without annoying some people in the same way that opinion obviously would.

 

That said, these are obviously our opinions and GW is going to do whatever they do with utter disregard to anything we think or say here, so we should keep that in mind. Furthermore, anything they've done is already done, as that Codex is almost certainly at print already.

Edited March 20, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[lansalt]

A lot of the bloat comes from units unnecessarily divided in multiple datasheets:

• By their loadout: Predators, Storm Speeders, Landspeeders, Land raiders, Gladiators, dreadnoughs, veterans...
• By shallow differences between firstborn and primaris units: captains, chaplains, apothecaries, lieutenants...

Streamline and unify those and a lot of bloat would be removed without need to remove old units, except maybe keeping apart the Heresy era stuff in a separate supplement (including contemptors, yes)

[Orange Knight]

I didn't realise this, but GW took a bunch of options away not just from various infantry squads in the Chaos book, but also from character models.

 

I could imagine that the only options available going forward for even a custom Captain would be those found in the box. Potentially this means no bikers, no jump packs, and no combination of weapons that can't be readily purchased.

 

I suppose a Primaris Captain could simply replace all the other Captain as this point. And apparently there is going to be a new Terminator Captain in the starter set.

 

They need to clear up more than 10/15 datasheets. We can't continue with having the faction rules split across 11 books or more. I made a point of how my Imperial Fists did not receive a single new rule in an entire edition - completely ignored alongside the Ultras, RG, IH  etc, whilst Azrael of the Dark Angels received 3 seperate, updated datasheets in the same time frame, and the Dark Angels have a supplement with a power level far higher than most other chapters. 

 

If we obsess over keeping every option, every unit, etc then these problems will only get worse as the next edition continues. My ideal scenarios would have GW release a single codex with all rules and units included - but this can't be a tome with 140 datasheets.

[Kallas]

55 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I'm becoming more and more cynical about the health of the codex. The more I look at it the more I believe that any unit that has a Primaris equivalent should be retired. The equivalents don't have to be identical, they just have to fill a role and do a particular job.

 

Oh boy, here we go again 

1. Stop treating people as if they're idiots. People are pretty capable of reading and can understand what Unit X or Y does. Having options that are similar is really not the end of the world. If someone is somehow confused by reading, then a game relying on reading unit stats and abilities is probably not the best game for them; or, they will just play the game however they want and ignore the "unfriendly" parts of the book.
2. Removing units helps cut down on the number of Datasheets, but that's all it does. It doesn't make Unit X more or less useful in a given role, all it does it reduce options.
3. To prevent further "health issues" with the Codex, let's stop releasing new Primaris units. We already have Firstborn units in pretty much every role imaginable, so we don't actually need Primaris units to come out to fill those roles; that will definitely help the "health" of the Codex going forward. But I guess for some reason this for some reason won't stick in your mind as an option...

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

The sheer volume of units is silly.

Oh yeah, I wonder why that could be 

[WrathOfTheLion]

The Chaos book was hit quite brutally. I don't know if they'll do the same for Space Marines, but I'd at least entertain that something like that will happen.

 

As for rules bloat, the datasheet volume besides straight redundancies (Captain, Primaris Captain, Lieutenant, Primaris Lieutenant, etc.) isn't the biggest part. The faction has a fairly complex set of interactions between rules (doctrines, etc.), and it's missing some easy scoping to trim down especially strategems. They need to cut like 3/4 the strats, replacing them with either another mechanism or much more generic and useful strats. Smoke Launchers and Transhuman are the only ones I even remember at this point, but replace things like "Pick one Reiver Lieutenant and...", that stuff is completely worthless.

Edited March 20, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Orange Knight]

@Kallas

 

OK, but have you actually played the game? I know you disagree with everything I say but you must accept that the codex is wildly imbalanced.

 

Not only are certain Chapters far better than others, but certain units completely invalidate others in the same book.

 

It's also wildly difficult to balance a faction like this. Ability and stat modifiers have compounding effects when they are applied to so many variables. This isn't a problem that would be unique to GW, anyone would struggle to bring the entire book and all the sub-factions in line.

 

So as it stands I see a lot of push back against making a healthy game with no alternative solutions.

 

The truth is that with a Legends PDF and with the existence of narrative play, everyone can have their cake, but the same narrative and theme focused hobbyists demand that all this is included in the matched play format to the detriment of the game.

[Evil Eye]

7 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

If we obsess over keeping every option, every unit, etc then these problems will only get worse as the next edition continues. My ideal scenarios would have GW release a single codex with all rules and units included - but this can't be a tome with 140 datasheets.

To be fair, you could keep options and not invalidate people's models by combining datasheets rather than retiring them. For vehicles, have a datasheet for each basic chassis and then options in the datasheet for weapons. For infantry (assuming the deletion of the Primaris keyword) do something similar, with Primaris and Firstborn options being merged into one non-discriminating sheet. So Intercessors get folded into Tactical Marines, with all appropriate weapon options (bolters and bolt rifles being made identical). The various heavy weapon Primaris guys (Heavy Intercessors, Eradicators, Desolators etc) get folded into Devastator squads, with both classic and Primaris options available to any eligible Marine (meaning you could hypothetically have the Desolator nerf guns and traditional missile launchers in the same squad, possibly modeled with the Desolator being mocked by his more sensibly armed friends ). HQ would be similarly treated, with all the various "generic" HQ (captains, lieutenants etc) folded into a single "Hero" with multiple options ala the good ol' days.

 

This way, you'd have a much cleaner 'dex without actually making anyone's collections invalid, and wouldn't need to retire any models until appropriate replacements come along.

[Orange Knight]

Combining datasheets would be a solution in some cases, but GW's pattern over the last 6 years has been all about streamlining options and not adding to them.

 

The suggestion of merging units would ultimately mean that some will gain additional customisation and options, but looking at every codex released in 9th and the way that the new units are designed, I can't see this happening.

 

In fact they are more likely to take options away from Firstborn units than they are to add additional options to Primaris.