Do you think firstborn marines will be discontinued?

[Kallas]

Just now, Orange Knight said:

you must accept that the codex is wildly imbalanced.

Uh, that has nothing to do with the volume of units though, and certainly nothing to do with retiring units.

There are definitely internal balance issues, but none of that is unique to Firstborn/Primaris, let alone Marines in general.

 

1 minute ago, Orange Knight said:

Not only are certain Chapters far better than others, but certain units completely invalidate others in the same book.

Yeah...both Firstborn and Primaris are guilty of it. So let's remove some of both then...right? 

Or units can be better balanced with some reasonable thought (eg, not giving units wholesale free upgrades which is stupid).

 

2 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

So as it stands I see a lot of push back against making a healthy game with no alternative solutions.

Cool strawman mate. Balancing units is not a case of "too many units, let's get rid of some" it's simply a case of efficiency. Your point ("I believe that any unit that has a Primaris equivalent should be retired") seems to indicate that you feel Firstborn are the barrier to balance - except some Primaris units invalidate Firstborn units too (eg, Eradicators invalidate MM Devastators except with the specific proviso of the Drop Pod), it's not uniquely a Firstborn issue.

 

The point is that you want Firstborn out of the way to make room for all Primaris units. It's fine to want Primaris units to have a place in an army; but it's not reasonable to state that all of their problems come from the mere presence of Firstborn. We've seen through 8th and 9th that the validity/competitiveness of various units has waxed and waned with the various balance passes and with the buffs of different Chapters making certain units more or less viable. The problem is not in Firstborn occupying space (that they have occupied for decades before Primaris appeared), it is simply in lax balancing of units by GW.

 

7 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Legends PDF

And another topic that's already been discussed to death. Legends is tantatmount to outright removal, at least for any group that tends towards using Matched Play rules as their primary system (typically the GT packs). In the most casual groups sure, Legends is fine-ish, but even then the removal of a unit from the Codex reduces a units' legitimacy as a fieldable unit. It remains to be seen what will become of Legends on 10th, and whether they will actually update that document to 10th at all - if they do (and then leave the units there to rot for the rest of the edition) it will be the bare minimum in maintaining that those units can still be used at all; and if they don't, then it's simply a way for them to remove units entirely.

 

10 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

the same narrative and theme focused hobbyists demand that all this is included in the matched play format to the detriment of the game.

So now people who want to keep their Firstborn armies are only narrative/theme hobbyists? You are conflating what some people have said as if that is the only reason. It's not, and it's a bad faith argument.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, Kallas said:

To be fair, all of the Impulsor turret options are reasonable analogues of the Razorback:

• The Bellicastus Missile Array is roughly equivalent to the Twin Lascannon, sacrificing raw AT firepower for flexibility
• The Ironhail Skytalon Array is equivalent to the Twin Assault Cannon, giving up Strength and overall ROF for range
• The Orbital Comms Array and the Shield Dome provide options separate from the Razorback

Either way, the Impulsor's options as well as the 6 capacity make it pretty clearly a Razorback equivalent. Not quite sure how anyone (not you specifically Adelard!) could really argue against the clear design similarities, even if they're not a perfect 1:1 match.

Not even close!

the missile array isn’t a very good analogue for twin lascannons and Ironail stubbers are not a very good analogue for heavy bolters or assault cannons, and the extra storm bolter in no way makes up the difference. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

8 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Rhino with a half size transport capacity sounds like a Razorback to me - and the tops turn them into the various Rhino hull tanks - Hunter, Stalker, Razorback, Whirlwind with a few tradeoffs.  The shooting is worse for keeping the transport capacity is all.  - fewer shots, weaker shots, losing indirect, etc.  We don't have the Full Squad transport.  And most squads are 3-5 because the game is pushing MSU.  The only benefit to a 10 man squad is dying faster to BLAST. 

A razorback is more than a transport and it’s capacity.

you take the razorback for the firepower it brings, otherwise you’d just take a rhino and only fill it halfway if transport ability was all you cared about, you’d also be saving 20 points that way.

 

impulsor can have way more firepower than a rhino yes, but no configuration makes a reasonable approximation of any of the razorback loadouts.

[Orange Knight]

@Kallas

 

I'm afraid you are taking it a bit too personally. 

 

A codex with over 100 unit variations and a lot of redundancy will be more difficult to balance. That's an objective fact.

It's funny/sad but even the Horus Heresy isn't balanced despite being mainly a mirror match game with unique flavour in each Legion.

 

Remember, I did not invent the Primaris. I did not ask for them. Yet here they are, and they are the successors to the old Marines in both the lore and the tabletop.

 

What I want is a fun, elegant and streamlined game that doesn't require 10 books updated over 3 years to disclose the rules of a single faction. You're not going to get that when one faction has 150 datasheets, and there are 20 other factions in a game.

 

@Inquisitor_Lensoven

 

If the Impulsor gets access to the MM across all chapters then it will exceed the firepower of the Razorback.

We've not had a new codex since the BT unlocked that option. It's very likely that it will be available to everyone.

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Kallas]

2 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Not even close!

the missile array isn’t a very good analogue for twin lascannons and Ironail stubbers are not a very good analogue for heavy bolters or assault cannons, and the extra storm bolter in no way makes up the difference. 

I mean, I didn't say that they were exactly the same, but that they were the "roughly equivalent" option. Yeah, the Missile Array isn't as directly strong at AT as the Twin Lascannon, but it's more flexible and does have a similar function. The Skytalon Array isn't as strong at the Twin Assault Cannon/Heavy Bolter, but it is the anti-infantry equivalent. And sure, the Storm Bolters don't make up the difference - except I didn't say that they do, so that's fun 

 

They're not directly superior, or even equal, options, but they are the same function; the Impulsor is a vehicle that fulfills the same role as a Razorback: a light transport with fire support. You may not like it, and it may not be upgunned enough to be equal to the Razorback in terms of firepower, but it is the same role.

[phandaal]

12 minutes ago, Kallas said:

So now people who want to keep their Firstborn armies are only narrative/theme hobbyists? You are conflating what some people have said as if that is the only reason. It's not, and it's a bad faith argument.

 

Ironically, this same person will say they want new models to explicitly be Primaris in the lore, because those are the strongest and best Space Marines.

 

2 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I'm afraid you are taking it a bit too personally. 

 

It seems disingenuous to bring up things people have already disputed as if they were never discussed, and it happens fairly regularly. That can be frustrating for people because it really does feel deceptive and not in good faith.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

10 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

@Kallas

 

I'm afraid you are taking it a bit too personally. 

 

A codex with over 100 unit variations and a lot of redundancy will be more difficult to balance. That's an objective fact.

It's funny/sad but even the Horus Heresy isn't balanced despite being mainly a mirror match game with unique flavour in each Legion.

 

Remember, I did not invent the Primaris. I did not ask for them. Yet here they are, and they are the successors to the old Marines in both the lore and the tabletop.

 

What I want is a fun, elegant and streamlined game that doesn't require 10 books updated over 3 years to disclose the rules of a single faction. You're not going to get that when one faction has 150 datasheets, and there are 20 other factions in a game.

 

@Inquisitor_Lensoven

 

If the Impulsor gets access to the MM across all chapters then it will exceed the firepower of the Razorback.

We've not had a new codex since the BT unlocked that option. It's very likely that it will be available to everyone.

 

We’ll see.

is the BT MM option a replacement for the pintle or turret?

If it replaces the turret I’d say it’s equal firepower to the twin las razorback.

 

if it replaces the pintle stubber then yeah I’d say it hands down adds enough firepower to edge out the the razorback options.

[Orange Knight]

@phandaal

 

You're probably correct. This issue cuts people on both sides.

 

I don't see a resolution that can make everyone happy, and it reflects what a poor job GW has done. Leaving everyone in a holding pattern for years has not helped.

2 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

We’ll see.

is the BT MM option a replacement for the pintle or turret?

If it replaces the turret I’d say it’s equal firepower to the twin las razorback.

 

if it replaces the pintle stubber then yeah I’d say it hands down adds enough firepower to edge out the the razorback options.

 

It's a replacement for the Pintle.

 

You can keep the turret, shield dome and the other weapons. Makes it a superior light transport in speed, firepower and durability. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

14 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

@phandaal

 

You're probably correct. This issue cuts people on both sides.

 

I don't see a resolution that can make everyone happy, and it reflects what a poor job GW has done. Leaving everyone in a holding pattern for years has not helped.

 

It's a replacement for the Pintle.

 

You can keep the turret, shield dome and the other weapons. Makes it a superior light transport in speed, firepower and durability. 

Tbh I hope the rest of us don’t get it.

im not a fan of the apparent move to remove faction unique units.

 

reaper is just a primaris Baal pred.

Brutalis is just a primaris furioso.

etc

 

so I hope the BT get to keep something that makes them unique aside from a primaris crusader squad(and who knows if that will remain truly unique next codex?)

[Kallas]

3 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I'm afraid you are taking it a bit too personally. 

I mean, I've stated my position time and again: stop advocating for the removal of Firstborn and I'll stop being quite as belligerant about it.

You also seem to be making up positions to go against (eg, "I see a lot of push back against making a healthy game with no alternative solutions." and "narrative and theme focused hobbyists demand that all this is included in the matched play format to the detriment of the game.") so the problem is your views on what people want, instead of actually addressing what people are saying.

 

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

What I want is a fun, elegant and streamlined game that doesn't require 10 books updated over 3 years to disclose the rules of a single faction. You're not going to get that when one faction has 150 datasheets, and there are 20 other factions in a game.

What I want is the models I have to be viable units.

 

You keep saying 'elegant' and 'streamlined'. Was the Marine book streamlined before Primaris? Probably not overall. The introduction of Primaris made any such issue worse. But the solution to "10 books updated over 3 years" is relatively 'elegant and streamlined' in that we simply don't need 10 books. A single Marine Codex and possibly a single Marine Supplement book would immediately reduce that issue; even better would be to include all of the Chapter variance in the main Codex - that certainly would make it much larger, butit would definitely be "elegant" (ie, it would be simple).

 

As for Datasheets, you keep saying it's too many Datasheets, and people keep saying that it's entirely possible to combine quite a lot of Datasheets, yet that isn't good enough for you - only the removal of Firstborn units seems to satisfy your goals. And that's why I take it personally: you want my stuff to become invalid to make room for unnecessary additions (new or current). I know that you don't make the design decisions, much the same as I don't; but the advocation for such acts is what I press against. If I don't speak up against it, then I am inviting GW to go through with your ideas, since they would assume that there's no opposition to such ideas; much like how if I state that I want to remove Primaris, people like yourself get up in arms and don't want that to happen (almost like people don't want their stuff invalidated, shocker!).

 

Simply, removing Firstborn does not solve the issue. Marines are bloated at their core, because they get far more support than any other faction. Primaris have received more units since 8th than exist for entire other factions (Primaris have 32 units (discounting duplicates, eg, only counting Captains as one, not one per Datasheet/model; same with eg, Gladiators only counting as one: if we want to get technical, Primaris have 46 actual Datasheets [Firstborn have 41 not counting duplicates; 51 counting duplicates]) and factions like Drukhari have only 29 in total, not including Corsairs or the Webway Gate; 32 if including them, and that is including all special characters as individuals), so the problem is not inherently a Firstborn one, it is that Marine are just the biggest faction by a country mile, and they will never not be.

 

Even if we just stripped out all Firstborn units right now, Primaris are going to receive massively more support than all other factions (likely all of them combined) and will soon enough be back in the same position. Hell, by the numbers Primaris are close enough in number to Firstborn units already, depending on if you want to count duplicates or not; the problem is that they are the biggest, most popular faction, regardless of Firstborn or Primaris. They will always be "bloated" in that regard.

 

Rambling point being: removing units is just a way to try and clear space for more Primaris units. It doesn't solve anything, all it does is disenfranchise some people. You're fine with that, I'm not, especially as one of those standing to be disenfranchised.

 

  

20 minutes ago, phandaal said:

Ironically, this same person will say they want new models to explicitly be Primaris in the lore, because those are the strongest and best Space Marines.

And some people are losing their minds at the suggestion that a new unit might - horror of horrors! - not be Primaris for a change. Not even that all units would not be Primaris, simply that one unit might not be Primaris! It'd be funnier if it weren't so ludicrously hypocritical.

[phandaal]

2 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Even if we just stripped out all Firstborn units right now, Primaris are going to receive massively more support than all other factions (likely all of them combined) and will soon enough be back in the same position. Hell, by the numbers Primaris are close enough in number to Firstborn units already, depending on if you want to count duplicates or not; the problem is that they are the biggest, most popular faction, regardless of Firstborn or Primaris. They will always be "bloated" in that regard.

 

I think GW is going to start selling upscaled classic sculpts whenever they reach peak saturation on Primaris. At the end of the day, Primaris models are a way for GW to sell a new Space Marine army to people who already have Space Marine armies.

 

Eventually, they will have to sell another Space Marine army to people own a Primaris Space Marine army. The lore will be twisted like a pretzel to justify whatever sales outcome is required.

[Orange Knight]

I'm sure that they'll eventually replace Primaris with "Neo-Astartes" that are made by the Reborn Emperor in 15th edition lol.

 

Anyway, to go back to this topic. Do I think Firstborn will be discontinued?

 

In 40k: Not entirely, but many units will be removed over the next edition or so.

[Blindhamster]

A thing GW have done on and off over the years, in all their games, is remove units. There comes a point when some existing models become obsolete. Sometimes it’s entire units, other times it’s simply options in units. But it’s happened forever.  For example, As a blood angel, I lost my honour guard unit, it simply doesn’t exist as a thing anymore and half the things in it are legends already, 

 

to be clear, I’m not saying “yeah they should get rid of firstborn”, but I am saying, there is a good chance that the next codex will remove some things, be that in the form of firstborn or primaris or both. 
 

I still don’t necessarily think the distinction will remain, and we will technically have to stop referring to primaris this and firstborn that. If the keyword goes, I do also think that it may not be the good news some people hope for, as it would be the logical point to start consolidating units, which would undoubtedly see some things be dropped entirely, and like it or not, it’ll be older things that are more likely (but not guaranteed) to receive “the chop”, though I wouldn’t be surprised to see suppressors and the Phobos librarian vanish too, as neither thing is available on a unique sprue. At least rumours suggest that terminators and scouts will get an update. Things with more direct parallels are likely less “safe”. But who knows, they may just continue with a huge marine codex, people still buy most things in it I imagine!
 

as ever, time will tell.

[Blindhamster]

17 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

I think GW is going to start selling upscaled classic sculpts whenever they reach peak saturation on Primaris. At the end of the day, Primaris models are a way for GW to sell a new Space Marine army to people who already have Space Marine armies.

 

Eventually, they will have to sell another Space Marine army to people own a Primaris Space Marine army. The lore will be twisted like a pretzel to justify whatever sales outcome is required.

I think it’s more likely they’ll do what they did with firstborn for 20 years and just do updates to what’s released, that already sells people a new army most times. People blame sales for primaris, and it’s kinda dumb as GW released more retooled tactical squads over the years than most other armies have troop choices.

 

I do bet that an updated intercessors squad will come, and have a number of early mk pieces though, even wouldn’t be surprised to see them include the option for a heavy weapon lol

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

A thing GW have done on and off over the years, in all their games, is remove units. There comes a point when some existing models become obsolete. Sometimes it’s entire units, other times it’s simply options in units. But it’s happened forever.  For example, As a blood angel, I lost my honour guard unit, it simply doesn’t exist as a thing anymore and half the things in it are legends already, 

 

to be clear, I’m not saying “yeah they should get rid of firstborn”, but I am saying, there is a good chance that the next codex will remove some things, be that in the form of firstborn or primaris or both. 
 

I still don’t necessarily think the distinction will remain, and we will technically have to stop referring to primaris this and firstborn that. If the keyword goes, I do also think that it may not be the good news some people hope for, as it would be the logical point to start consolidating units, which would undoubtedly see some things be dropped entirely, and like it or not, it’ll be older things that are more likely (but not guaranteed) to receive “the chop”, though I wouldn’t be surprised to see suppressors and the Phobos librarian vanish too, as neither thing is available on a unique sprue. At least rumours suggest that terminators and scouts will get an update. Things with more direct parallels are likely less “safe”. But who knows, they may just continue with a huge marine codex, people still buy most things in it I imagine!
 

as ever, time will tell.

I miss the HG.

pour some out for the lost homies.

[Bryan Blaire]

Honestly, it’s gotten to the point where any discussion on Marines gets derailed by those most militant along both lines regarding their preferred template of Marines, even though the divide between the two is really quite minuscule.  There’s bloat in both types of Marine templates, and that means something more comprehensive really needs to be done to the Codex than just “cut one or the other”.  Very little can be accomplished here on the board other than raising people’s ire that have firmly drawn their lines.

 

We’ll have to see what GW decides to do going forward, and stop our endless speculating, because we, as Frater, are getting no where.

 

If nothing else, the original posted question is already answered: “No, GW is not discontinuing the original Astartes line - it will continue on as long as they produce the Horus Heresy game.  Whether that model line of classic Astartes continues for 40K remains to be seen, and anyone saying one way or the other is just giving their opinion and really knows nothing factual unless they work for GW (in which case, they shouldn’t be breaking their NDA).”

Edited March 20, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

28 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Honestly, it’s gotten to the point where any discussion on Marines gets derailed by those most militant along both lines regarding their preferred template of Marines, even though the divide between the two is really quite minuscule.  There’s bloat in both types of Marine templates, and that means something more comprehensive really needs to be done to the Codex than just “cut one or the other”.  Very little can be accomplished here on the board other that raising people’s ire that have firmly drawn their lines.

 

We’ll have to see what GW decides to do going forward, and stop our endless speculating, because we, as Frater, are getting no where.

 

If nothing else, the original posted question is already answered: “No, GW is not discontinuing the original Astartes line - it will continue on as long as they produce the Horus Heresy game.  Whether that model line of classic Astartes continues for 40K remains to be seen, and anyone saying one way or the other is just giving their opinion and really knows nothing factual unless they work for GW (in which case, they shouldn’t be breaking their NDA).”

Idk I don’t think the differences between FB and primaris are minuscule on the tabletop.

 

sternguard vets are hands down better than veteran intercessors.

i would argue VGV are easily better than BGV

a 5 man tac squad with plasma or melta gun is a big difference compared to 5 man intercessor squad with AGL

terminators are hands down better than aggressors.

i wouldn’t call such differences minuscule.

[Orange Knight]

Terminators are currently better because they have free wargear upgrades and a vastly reduced cost.

 

In fact all the free wargear has given a few classic units a real edge, especially as there are currently no limits on squad upgrades. This is poor game balance unfortunately, and it reminds me of the free wargear and upgrades at the end of 7th edition.

Of course Sternguard are better then Veteran Intercessors. The Sternguard can take combi-plasmas and power-fists for free!

 

As for Tactical Marines. Having 2 models in a unit of 10 that upgrade their weapons is a far inferior proposition to a whole squad with plainly superior bolters. I'll take a unit that can move, run and shoot 30 times in one turn over a squad that has a plasma and a single heavy weapon it fires with a penalty.

 

Will be interesting to see what happens in 10th. The cynic in me thinks this rebalance is going to drive sales of old stock in a last hurrah before GW decide to relegate all the units to Legends. They have unfortunately pulled this kind of stunt before...

[DesuVult]

3 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

@Kallas

 

OK, but have you actually played the game?

 

3 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

@Kallas

 

I'm afraid you are taking it a bit too personally. 

Discussion on the topic is often something to read through.

Edited March 20, 2023 by DesuVult

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Terminators are currently better because they have free wargear upgrades and a vastly reduced cost.

 

In fact all the free wargear has given a few classic units a real edge, especially as there are currently no limits on squad upgrades. This is poor game balance unfortunately, and it reminds me of the free wargear and upgrades at the end of 7th edition.

Of course Sternguard are better then Veteran Intercessors. The Sternguard can take combi-plasmas and power-fists for free!

 

As for Tactical Marines. Having 2 models in a unit of 10 that upgrade their weapons is a far inferior proposition to a whole squad with plainly superior bolters. I'll take a unit that can move, run and shoot 30 times in one turn over a squad that has a plasma and a single heavy weapon it fires with a penalty.

 

Will be interesting to see what happens in 10th. The cynic in me thinks this rebalance is going to drive sales of old stock in a last hurrah before GW decide to relegate all the units to Legends. They have unfortunately pulled this kind of stunt before...

Terminators are better because they get an invuln, and more melee options in the assault terminators, as well as better firepower in the tactical terminators, even if they cost a few more points per model.

 

what do your intercessors do when there’s a dreadnought or a tank in front of them? Fish for 6s to wound?

even at a 5 man squad with a plasma gun or a melta tacs are better.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Orange Knight]

I would rather have units designed to deal with something efficiently than generalised units that can't do anything particularly well.

 

The Intercessors are there to engage infantry holding objectives, and they would leave the Dreadnought to another unit in the army that can efficiently engage it. It's the same way the Eldar, Necrons and Tau, etc would operate.

 

It's another reason why I personally like the Primaris so much and why their design is better in my eyes.

 

The Terminators had invuls in 8th edition too, but for a good time the Aggressors were the superior choice by far. Units wax and wane all the time.

[Blindhamster]

I’d probably say aggressors are about equal in terms of quality to tactical terminators, clearly assault terminators are better if you want a melee punch unit (though as a blood angel, I’d then rather take bladeguard).

 

as mentioned, I wouldn’t be having intercessors attack a dread, I wouldn’t generally have tactical doing that either, because a single heavy or special is going to be so negligible that it requires another, likely dedicated anti tank unit anyway. And if it gets to melee, I’d rather have an intercessors sergeant with a thunder hammer or fist than a tactical one. (Incidentally, again, blood angels intercessors actually have a passable chance to chip a dread to death with the help of a thunder hammer sergeant in a way tactical squads don’t currently)

 

so yeah, for me I too still prefer intercessors to tactical, though I wouldn’t say no to more special weapon options or heavy options on them (which could be selected to synergise with the choice of bolt rifle)

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

I would rather have units designed to deal with something efficiently than generalised units that can't do anything particularly well.

 

The Intercessors are there to engage infantry holding objectives, and they would leave the Dreadnought to another unit in the army that can efficiently engage it. It's the same way the Eldar, Necrons and Tau, etc would operate.

 

It's another reason why I personally like the Primaris so much and why their design is better in my eyes.

 

The Terminators had invuls in 8th edition too, but for a good time the Aggressors were the superior choice by far. Units wax and wane all the time.

 

 

Sounds like you should be playing Eldar, Necrons and Tau, not Space Marines. You clearly prefer their style of doing things. Space Marines are not Eldar, Necrons or Tau. They should not play like them, and the more we consolidate how armies function the less interesting the game is. This is me setting aside my dislike for Primaris based on lore, appearance, and my knee jerk reaction to hate what people try and sell me on principal. From a raw game design perspective, the Imperium of man is based around tactical flexibility and generalist units. Look at Guard, Sisters, Marines. About the only exception to this are Custodes and Knights, the two newest factions. But squads of units with adaptable roles are what the Imperium does, and trimming that out to ape other factions, who have their distinct differences despite being setup in squads of single tasks, isn't doing the game any favors.

 

Also, tacticals can take 2 meltas, one combi on the SGT and one special. I often do the same on my Crusaders as anti tank at 500 to 1,000 point games, and it does a lot of good work. It's a unit that can charge into Aeldar and win, threaten off a Dreadnought, and get into cover to hold ground decently well. It does its job.

[Orange Knight]

Horus Heresy Space Marines and Primaris say otherwise. Two out of Three ain't bad :-P

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

I’d probably say aggressors are about equal in terms of quality to tactical terminators, clearly assault terminators are better if you want a melee punch unit (though as a blood angel, I’d then rather take bladeguard).

 

as mentioned, I wouldn’t be having intercessors attack a dread, I wouldn’t generally have tactical doing that either, because a single heavy or special is going to be so negligible that it requires another, likely dedicated anti tank unit anyway. And if it gets to melee, I’d rather have an intercessors sergeant with a thunder hammer or fist than a tactical one. (Incidentally, again, blood angels intercessors actually have a passable chance to chip a dread to death with the help of a thunder hammer sergeant in a way tactical squads don’t currently)

 

so yeah, for me I too still prefer intercessors to tactical, though I wouldn’t say no to more special weapon options or heavy options on them (which could be selected to synergise with the choice of bolt rifle)

However a heavy weapon, and a special weapon have a realistic chance of at least bracketing it depending on what weapons you take.

 

I guess I just like the flexibility.