Do you think firstborn marines will be discontinued?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

SN+ was discussing Primaris Terminators during their podcast this afternoon… sounds like they might rival Centurions.

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

SN+ was discussing Primaris Terminators during their podcast this afternoon… sounds like they might rival Centurions.

 

This is my hope. Aggressors are too similar to Terminators, so I would prefer if the Terminators were elevated into something more powerful and threatening. A Centurion statline perhaps.

[WrathOfTheLion]

6 hours ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Honestly, it’s gotten to the point where any discussion on Marines gets derailed by those most militant along both lines regarding their preferred template of Marines, even though the divide between the two is really quite minuscule.  There’s bloat in both types of Marine templates, and that means something more comprehensive really needs to be done to the Codex than just “cut one or the other”.  Very little can be accomplished here on the board other than raising people’s ire that have firmly drawn their lines.

 

We’ll have to see what GW decides to do going forward, and stop our endless speculating, because we, as Frater, are getting no where.

 

If nothing else, the original posted question is already answered: “No, GW is not discontinuing the original Astartes line - it will continue on as long as they produce the Horus Heresy game.  Whether that model line of classic Astartes continues for 40K remains to be seen, and anyone saying one way or the other is just giving their opinion and really knows nothing factual unless they work for GW (in which case, they shouldn’t be breaking their NDA).”

If we get to personal opinions, I find the far ends on both sides to be really annoying. 'I want all firstborn stuff removed, blah', that's great, sure. 'Primaris are the worst thing, blah', that's great, sure. Both opinions are uninteresting and have nothing of value to add to any conversation on the topic.

 

At the risk of the one sitting on the fence is the first one to get shot sort of position here, I have an all classic Space Wolf army, an all Primaris Lamenters army and Dark Angels army with both. I just can't find myself to care about an opinion that's real one sided on the matter. There's no discussion of value to be had with that, I don't need an expose on what amounts to essentially a one sentence opinion description.

Edited March 20, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Brother Captain Arkley]

12 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

*snip*

Sorry man I can only like this once :).

[Kallas]

16 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I would rather have units designed to deal with something efficiently than generalised units that can't do anything particularly well.

 

The Intercessors are there to engage infantry holding objectives, and they would leave the Dreadnought to another unit in the army that can efficiently engage it. It's the same way the Eldar, Necrons and Tau, etc would operate.

 

It's another reason why I personally like the Primaris so much and why their design is better in my eyes.

Um, Dreadnoughts/Redemptor Dreadnoughts are generalist units.

 

They have a main gun that's either anti-tank (eg, Twin Lascannon, Multi-melta, or Macro Plasma Incinerator) or anti-personnel (eg, Assault Cannon or Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon), and then one or more secondary ranged weapons that are anti-personnel (eg, Storm Bolter/s, Heavy Flamer, Fragstorms), and then it has a melee weapon that is much more anti-tank than anti-personnel (low number of attacks with high S, AP and D).

 

So should we be stripping down Dreadnoughts to be only meant to deal with one thing? Shouldn't the Redemptor have a flail-fist and no Macro Plasma Incinerator, so that it fits that role, right? Because Primaris are apparently focused on doing one thing at a time? Similarly, why have Intercessor Sergeants even got an option for Power Fists and Thunder Hammers? They're anti-infantry, so they don't need such heavy weapons!

 

As @Marshal Valkenhayn said, let Eldar, Necrons and Tau (though Tau is a bad example to use, since they are pretty much as flexible on equipment loadouts as Marines) be themselves, and let Marines be Marines. We don't need factions to meld together in army construction.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There are firstborn units that aren’t generalists. It’s not a big deal.

[Kallas]

54 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

There are firstborn units that aren’t generalists. It’s not a big deal.

I'm not the one making the statement that they are, but OK was saying that Primaris aren't. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Surely Aggressors are a generalist unit.

[Kallas]

24 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Surely Aggressors are a generalist unit.

Yeah, they are. Like I said, I'm not saying that Primaris aren't generalists, OK was saying that they're specialists which isn't really the case when you actually stop and consider the units currently available. Desolators are pretty generalist with the Castellan+Super-Krak loadout; hell, even Hellblasters with Assault Plasma Incinerators are pretty generalist since they have the ROF/AP/D combination to threaten pretty much any target, same with Plasma Inceptors.

 

Marines are generalists, it's always been one of the balancing issues with them (ie, paying a premium for stats that they don't always get to leverage), and Primaris are the same - making them not generalists would make them less like Marines, and more like Eldar. Which is kind of lessening the point of them being Marines (ie, great warriors that can turn their hand to anything).

[Orange Knight]

Sure, every Marine has a decent defensive and offensive profile regardless of their role.

 

What I meant is that the Primaris, in the same way that the Horus Heresy Marines are designed, are more focused for a certain role on a unit by unit basis.

 

There are generally no mixed weapons in squads. If a Primaris unit is designed to have Plasma weapons, all 10 of them will have Plasma Weapons. The same applies to Chainswords, Missile Launchers, Melta Rifles, etc etc.

 

Some mixing is still possible, but generally it happens less because all the kits come ready with all the options to equip all the models with particular weapons.

 

Other units, as mentioned above, are always going to be generalists. This includes Dreads and Vehicles most often. Even a Spartan, with 10 Las Cannons aimed forward, can take a combi bolter.

The most notable examples in both 40k and 30k aareof units who buck this trend are veterans, who can mix and match weapons more freely. These exist in the Horus Heresy too, and are currently lacking from the Primaris range - something equivalent to Sternguard. The Black Templar Veterans were a nice start, however, so I'm sure more will come in the future.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Sure, every Marine has a decent defensive and offensive profile regardless of their role.

 

What I meant is that the Primaris, in the same way that the Horus Heresy Marines are designed, are more focused for a certain role on a unit by unit basis.

 

There are generally no mixed weapons in squads. If a Primaris unit is designed to have Plasma weapons, all 10 of them will have Plasma Weapons. The same applies to Chainswords, Missile Launchers, Melta Rifles, etc etc.

 

Some mixing is still possible, but generally it happens less because all the kits come ready with all the options to equip all the models with particular weapons.

 

Other units, as mentioned above, are always going to be generalists. This includes Dreads and Vehicles most often. Even a Spartan, with 10 Las Cannons aimed forward, can take a combi bolter.

The most notable examples in both 40k and 30k aareof units who buck this trend are veterans, who can mix and match weapons more freely. These exist in the Horus Heresy too, and are currently lacking from the Primaris range - something equivalent to Sternguard. The Black Templar Veterans were a nice start, however, so I'm sure more will come in the future.

I simply think battleline troops should have more options. After all there’s a reason pretty much every modern ground force arms it’s battleline infantry with an MG, Grenade launcher, and light missile/rocket launcher.

 

mixing special and heavy weapons into a squad allows for more specialization(flamer/hvy bolter) or more generalists(plasma/plasma, or melta/melta, etc.) on top of the AGL intercessors.

 

it also doesnt make sense why the heavy intercessors don’t have access to the AGL.

[Beta galactosidase]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I simply think battleline troops should have more options. After all there’s a reason pretty much every modern ground force arms it’s battleline infantry with an MG, Grenade launcher, and light missile/rocket launcher.

Over the past six years one of the most modern ground forces, the global invader marine corps, has replaced both its light machine gun and its normal infantry rifle with the same large automatic rifle, the m27.  They made intercessors. Oh the irl intercessor squad has an agl too.

 

and yeah it bothers me too, I think 40k marine troop squads should have a mortar tube, and guard infantry should have like 2x  heavy stubbers or plasma plus 2x melta or grenade launcher, because that’s more real.

 

but o well. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Beta galactosidase said:

Over the past six years one of the most modern ground forces, the global invader marine corps, has replaced both its light machine gun and its normal infantry rifle with the same large automatic rifle, the m27.  They made intercessors. Oh the irl intercessor squad has an agl too.

 

and yeah it bothers me too, I think 40k marine troop squads should have a mortar tube, and guard infantry should have like 2x  heavy stubbers or plasma plus 2x melta or grenade launcher, because that’s more real.

 

but o well. 

Yet they’re not losing out on their LAWs

 

so they’re still getting a grenadier and a heavy weapon.

 

it makes no sense that HIs get a real heavy weapon while normal intercessors dont.

[Captain Idaho]

GW are still talking about Firstborn existing, in context to Terminators. So if they can be either, as a concept they must exist.

[Blindhamster]

they were very clear, both kinds use the armour, and that just continues the message of firstborn aren't being removed.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Of course, with the move to making the rules free and updated, that allows for a spot in between "in the codex" and "consigned to Legends." GW could publish an all-Primaris physical codex to start off 11th Edition (I doubt they'd do it in 10th), but any Firstborn units that didn't have a Primaris counterpart could still be fully part of the army list. They just wouldn't be in the core book. But as the online version of the rules would be the final word, as long as they were still there they would be as eligible for listbuilding as any of the Primaris units.

[Robbienw]

The Terminators are an emphatic no to this question 

[Kallas]

30 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

that just continues the message of firstborn aren't being removed.

This is a good release to at least assuage fears. I don't think it's fully conclusive until we get a unit that is Firstborn only, eg a fresh Tactical as an example. These Terminators have had a little bit of a cop out with "both use them!" which is fine, everyone gets to use them and nobody loses out but we still have the reality that the only units they've released are Primaris - and Firstborn characters have all been shuffled off to make room for the Primaris version (eg, every special character that goes Primaris loses their Firstborn datasheet's legality).

 

GW did originally state that Primaris aren't replacing Firstborn. Terminators are a good unit, because they're not unequivocally Primaris-only. The next step in upholding their statement is to release a definitively Firstborn unit (ie, resculpting Tacticals, or Vanguard, or something). There's been no retirement of any major units yet, which is a good sign, and Terminators look to be a note towards maintaining Firstborn. Just need that final confirmation or else it remains a persistent consideration - a fresh Firstborn sculpt fully removes doubt.

 

If they are angling to remove the Primaris keyword, then there is less pressure to remove stuff as well, which would definitely be welcome. From the look of Terminators, if they are both Firstborn and Primaris, then there is no stat difference between them - if this is something they will be extending across the range, then it would reduce the threat of things become unuseable (eg, if the Primaris Sternguard unit appear, and it's just a Sternguard datasheet which allows people to use either Firstborn or Primaris then it's again a win-win).

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

they were very clear, both kinds use the armour, and that just continues the message of firstborn aren't being removed.

 

I don't know about that. Terminators may be Firstborn, but they're also clearly no longer NON-Primaris. They'd be as at-home in an all-Primaris codex as any Gravis or Phobos unit.

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

This is a good release to at least assuage fears. I don't think it's fully conclusive until we get a unit that is Firstborn only, eg a fresh Tactical as an example. These Terminators have had a little bit of a cop out with "both use them!" which is fine, everyone gets to use them and nobody loses out but we still have the reality that the only units they've released are Primaris - and Firstborn characters have all been shuffled off to make room for the Primaris version (eg, every special character that goes Primaris loses their Firstborn datasheet's legality).

 

GW did originally state that Primaris aren't replacing Firstborn. Terminators are a good unit, because they're not unequivocally Primaris-only. The next step in upholding their statement is to release a definitively Firstborn unit (ie, resculpting Tacticals, or Vanguard, or something). There's been no retirement of any major units yet, which is a good sign, and Terminators look to be a note towards maintaining Firstborn. Just need that final confirmation or else it remains a persistent consideration - a fresh Firstborn sculpt fully removes doubt.

 

If they are angling to remove the Primaris keyword, then there is less pressure to remove stuff as well, which would definitely be welcome. From the look of Terminators, if they are both Firstborn and Primaris, then there is no stat difference between them - if this is something they will be extending across the range, then it would reduce the threat of things become unuseable (eg, if the Primaris Sternguard unit appear, and it's just a Sternguard datasheet which allows people to use either Firstborn or Primaris then it's again a win-win).

Honestly, I think if the keyword goes, there WONT be primaris and firstborn units. There will just be units.

 

Some people spotted that the veteran unit looks to have some non mkX bits going on (if accurate, that exactly what I predicted!).

 

I really think the lines will blur, if we get a new tactical kit, expect it to be exactly the same scale as intercessors etc, and likely even including some mkX (still think if that happens, it'll replace both tacticals and intercessors as a thing)

[Kallas]

1 minute ago, Blindhamster said:

if we get a new tactical kit, expect it to be exactly the same scale as intercessors etc

That is what I said 

Like I've said before, the new scale/proportions are excellent - the issue is that some think that Firstborn can't be made in that scale, for some reason. But new Tactical Marines in the new scale with the same Mk V/VI/VII/VIII bits? Yeah, that would be perfect.

 

2 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Honestly, I think if the keyword goes, there WONT be primaris and firstborn units. There will just be units.

Yeah, if they just make good new kits with the [armour traditionally associated with Firstborn but it's kind of irrelevant if they're Firstborn or Primaris underneath] then it's kind of a non-issue. The problem has always been the divisiveness that two separate-but-totally-not-separate lines of Marines exist with one ostensibly pushing out the other.

 

As much as I dislike many parts of the Primaris lore, I could happily overlook most of it with the knowledge that the Marine units I want to run are secure. I don't mind Intercessors, but I like the flexibility of a Tactical Squad's special/heavy weapons; if I can run my Tacticals as Tacticals, I don't really care that someone else is running Primaris Tacticals if they want to.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Robbienw said:

The Terminators are an emphatic no to this question 

How do you figure? 
they can be played either/or.

 

this is not a primaris kit/release nor is it a first born kit/release 

it’s just a space marine kit/release.

 

there hasn’t been an actual FB kit released in years.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

they were very clear, both kinds use the armour, and that just continues the message of firstborn aren't being removed.

Aren’t being removed yet.

 

there’s a huge difference between not getting rid of something at all, and not getting rid of something yet. The fact it’s not outright a firstborn kit seems to be foreshadowing 

 

great example is warships. Some of the first DDG51 class ships are 30+ yrs old and should be getting retired soon but the USN just announced service life extension programs for them.

[Blindhamster]

48 minutes ago, Kallas said:

That is what I said 

 

I addendumed it, you only quoted the bit that totally agreed. I DON'T think we'll see a mainline 40k kit of primaris size marines purely made from none mkX, I DO think we'll see kits where there is more of a mix of mks that INCLUDES mkX lol

 

But yeah, I suspect even that would be fine for most people (me included tbh)

[Arikel]

I think with the introduction of digital rules we won’t see firstborn being removed. Hell we might even see a firstborn faction sheet, since your army rules are supposed to fit on 2 pages or less. Without the pressure of requiring it all to fit in a book you could simply keep adding units as needed, just add a new data sheet online.