Do you think firstborn marines will be discontinued?

[Berzul]

10 minutes ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

 

So confirmation bias for what *you* thought has been the goal this entire time? 

Nah..

The oldest SM kits in GWs inventory were retired, with the exception of assault marines and the hunter/stalker. There's plenty of reasons for assault marines and the H/S to go away that I really don't think I need to get into. 

You're making a massive jump..

 

Sure, man. Whatever you say.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I've said it the entire time, the biggest thing that is going to kill legacy space marines will be the reaction form the community and this is how it plays out:

- New models get released, there is hype and there is concern each from their own sides of the aisle. 

- Those hyped who have been waiting forever for larger models they consider true scale go all the way in claiming this is the future while simultaneously telling everyone else in the hobby the legacy SM are on the chopping block and that has been GWs goal the entire time.

- Newcomers to the hobby who don't know any better and nervous veterans start listening to the people who believe there is no point in buying legacy models because GW will just do away with them.

- Sales drop.

- GW concludes legacy kits are no longer money makers and begin cycling them out. 

 

Then comes the "sEeEee wE tOLd U tHeY wErE bEiNG rEpLaCeD"


If product sells and makes GW money, they aren't going to do away with them. Tactical squads are an example of this, and because of this edition I'm sure Predators and LRs are also going to follow suit. 

[Berzul]

Yeah, that is exactly it. You have cracked the code.

[NovemberIX]

My belief at this point is most of the Classic flavor marine stuff will be released in 30K aesthetic, but in about 6-10 years they'll be upscaled and released to great nostalgic fanfare. As primaris will be a mature range by then, a few units will go online only, then legends, then discontinued in favor of the new retro Classic Marines. Wailing and gnashing of teeth will happen, C-suite types will release statements saying primaris isn't going anywhere, and that the story they've built is epic and legendary and indelible. Then a bit later, a hard retcon will happen, it'll be pre-13th black crusade again. Except now we'll have marines the size of terminator, terminators the size of dreadnoughts, boxnaughts the size of armigers, and so on and so forth, and it'll cost the price of a used Corolla for a small 750 point get started collecting box.

 

 

Or, someone has the bright idea, rescale the classic stuff, re-release it as part of a Heresy/Scouring 30K Expansion that ties into updates and well written rules for 40K, make some money off of everyone.

[Gederas]

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

I have 20 lovingly made and converted veteran intercessors. They dont have a unit anymore

... Isn't that just 20 Sternguard though?

[Captain Idaho]

5 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

I've said it the entire time, the biggest thing that is going to kill legacy space marines will be the reaction form the community and this is how it plays out:

- New models get released, there is hype and there is concern each from their own sides of the aisle. 

- Those hyped who have been waiting forever for larger models they consider true scale go all the way in claiming this is the future while simultaneously telling everyone else in the hobby the legacy SM are on the chopping block and that has been GWs goal the entire time.

- Newcomers to the hobby who don't know any better and nervous veterans start listening to the people who believe there is no point in buying legacy models because GW will just do away with them.

- Sales drop.

- GW concludes legacy kits are no longer money makers and begin cycling them out. 

 

Then comes the "sEeEee wE tOLd U tHeY wErE bEiNG rEpLaCeD"


If product sells and makes GW money, they aren't going to do away with them. Tactical squads are an example of this, and because of this edition I'm sure Predators and LRs are also going to follow suit. 

 

Except Attack Bikes have been golden for years now. They sell because they're incredibly effective.

 

Thunderfire Cannons have been effective too.

 

In the new Index, the rules for Assault Marines are really solid. People were talking about putting them in their lists and theory crafting a bunch. I myself was gonna buy a unit.

 

So these things selling aren't the story.

[Karhedron]

Attack bikes have been superseded in GW's eyes by ATVs which fulfil the same role.

 

Assault Marines are likely going Primaris in the Autumn if Valrak's rumours are to be believed (and he has a very good track record at the moment). So this is case of a pulling a FB unit and replacing with a 1:1 equivalent (like Sternguard).

 

Thunderfires are an odd one. Were they still resin? Maybe GW consider them replaced by the Firestrike Servo turrets although they do a not cover the indirect fire role.

 

At some point I guess GW have to consider shelf space.

[Crimson Longinus]

11 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

The count as idea just doesn't work. Folk might have 3 Tactical squads each with 3 Flamers, but those flamer Marines don't make a single squad of Pyreblaster.

 

4 Grav Cannon Marines represent what exactly? And the Sergeant goes where?

 

Land Speeders with an Assault Cannon and Heavy Bolter... so what Storm Speeder is that?

 

It just doesn't really work out.

 One would probably need to do some weapon swaps and not every model could be salvaged. But I bet you could keep most of the classic collection usable. 

[Blindhamster]

6 hours ago, Gederas said:

... Isn't that just 20 Sternguard though?

10 have HBPs and chainswords/special melee options. 
 

Aren’t all the firstborn assault marines just people say are no good now just vanguard or new assault marines?

 

aren’t the scouts people have still just scouts probably?

 

aren’t the bikes people have just outriders? It’s fine, just replace a couple arms if needed.

 

aren’t the sternguard people have just sternguard still?

 

Aren’t peoples dreadnoughts still just dreadnoughts? Minor weapon adjustments at most

 

arent peoples command squads just some lieutenants, an apothecary, an ancient and a champion?

 

aren’t peoples librarians just librarians?

 

apparently not.

 

the only units from the currently announced dropped units that don’t seem to have modern analogies are:

hunter (nobody seemed to use it anyway)

stalker (nobody seemed to use it anyway)

scout bikes (again nobody seemed to use them)

thunderfire canon (a legitimate loss as they were very popular)

landspeeders (again, popular, I feel like you could probably proxy these well enough if you wanted, each has a theme that has a replacement in the stormspeeders)

[Blindhamster]

To be clear, I kinda agree, I can probably use the veteran intercessors as sternguard and on foot vanguard.

 

but I also think all those other replacements would be fine

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

I personally didn't enjoy the way Primaris were introduced, it was a misfire and could have been done in a much more elegant way, but after making so many Primaris I have come to really like the actual models and the miniatures are some of the best work GW has done in modernizing and streamlining both the sprues and sculpts. 

 

Frankly, I don't think @Evil Eye's prediction of a new SM line replacing the Primaris will come to pass. Not because GW wouldn't do it, but because I think GW will have to completely re-think and re-work its business model in the next ten years. I can buy a good 3d printer for less than $200 now, and they are only going to get cheaper and better as the years go by. GW cannot function the same way it always has in regards to being a production company- if a regular player can buy a printer plus $40 of resin, and then print off an entire army with little to no personal effort, then GW has lost the war against printers. They are going to have to switch to being an idea, rules, and experience company, rather than a production company- by which I mean they need to produce 3d printer files for license, make a comprehensive set of rules (that they can charge a subscription fee to access) that are regularly updated and refined, and actively start working on a tournament circuit that is larger and makes them money. GW is falling behind its competition already, with games like X-wing, MCP, and WarMachine already have free online rules, and producers like Privateer Press switching over to mass 3d printing for their production rather than move to injection molding like GW. The next decade in the tabletop wargaming industry will be really interesting...

 

I agree pretty much with what you say Ikka, there is a few points I want to talk about more.

 

The introduction of Primaris was indeed terrible, and at the time on this board certain Astartes sub-forums were just horrible to visit if you liked Primaris and certain members (Frater & Mods) of both sides made posting on here bad... In fact a few have been banned (Ishagu and BBF the main pro-primaris) and some are still here to pedal their misery.

 

And while I am pro-Primaris I would have prefered the first new units of Primaris to be the following, Tactical, Assault and Devastator, but thats not what we got. I was under no illusion Primaris would replace Firstborn but the only bitterness I have is to the small vocal minority that made it their lifes work to let you know how much they hated Primaris.

 

 

OK Ikka your printer statement is extremely relevant to me atm,  I have a stl that allows me to get legs and torsos printed for Intercessor bodies and they look amazing.

 

 

I also have "Sternguard" bodies.

 

But even more relevant is Epic and while its not the fully on topic I can see Fellblades and Glaives being £30 for 2. Rhinos probably £30 for 10 (I happy to be wrong)... But the STL's available for Epic is insane, I have files for pretty much everything, this isn't a boast or anything.

 

My point was more about what you said about GW being so far behind, I will get Epic for the rules that's pretty much it. I can get a full army for Epic for the fraction GW wants to sell them to me for. Plus I have access to 15 Legions of their special units, Suzerain for my Ultras and Justaerin for my SoH as an example.

 

But a year ago? I was vehemently against 3D Printing now I have fully embraced it.

 

To close... I will never defend GW's way of introducing Primaris, it was dire and poorly thought out, In the first novel of Dark Imperium they only talked about units that we had as models (Hellfuries might be only thing they didn't release or was what Eradicators became, Oh wait Overlord was a thing too.)

 

GW wrote themselves into a corner and have spent the last 6 years repairing the very damage they caused. And the community did not help. But do I think they were malicious? 

 

I am not sure I think they were. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Brother Captain Arkley

[Orange Knight]

I think the old Marines will be completely phased out, and I think that the community will be better off if they accept this.

 

The conclusion that individuals reach will be their own of course - some may decide to collect Primaris, or a different faction, or they'll step away from the hobby entirely.

 

We've had six years of denial and anger, and this has ultimately been a negative force in the community. We can all agree that the Primaris introduction was both sudden and clumsy, but that doesn't change the fact that GW have gone on to produce some great lore and fantastic new stories via their Black Library in the years since.

 

We also need to stop pretending that the lore prior to the introduction of Primaris had always existed in a perfect and complete state. GW themselves completely altered the identity of Space Marines from how they were introduced in Rogue Trader. I am not going to indefinitely hold a bad start against them if they take steps to address, improve and explain the lore - things they have done effectively. 

 

Now it's time for acceptance and reconciliation. And we can also hope that as time goes on GW will deliver more great kits and stories.

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

13 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/15/primaris-space-marines-faq-may15gw-homepage-post-2/

 

 

No where did they say that FB would never be replaced.

they said that the new wave of models wasn’t replacing anything.

[Robbienw]

20 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I think the old Marines will be completely phased out, 

 

 

We already know that’s not happening though, Terminators just got a new kit.

 

Scouts are getting a new kit as well soon, and if the BT initiates are anything to go by they will just be a sized up version of the current look (like the Terminators also).

 

 

[Orange Knight]

3 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

We already know that’s not happening though, Terminators just got a new kit.

 

Scouts are getting a new kit as well soon, and if the BT initiates are anything to go by they will just be a sized up version of the current look (like the Terminators also).

 

 

 

Terminators are Primaris now. 

 

I think these updated kits in line with the new range will remain. 

The Scouts are incomplete Marines (Primaris go through this process as well), and the Terminators represent a particular type of venerable armour.

 

GW are definitely correct in updating these kits and keeping them a part of the range. 

 

[Orion]

They should do a Primaris Tactical Squad in venerable MKVII armour.

[Orange Knight]

18 minutes ago, JayJapanB said:

They should do a Primaris Tactical Squad in venerable MKVII armour.

 

MkX is simply superior in every way (in the lore), and is modular and flexible.

 

If you like the look, you can use the helmet of the MkVII. I think the new Sternguard kit shows this working quite well.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Robbienw]

31 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Terminators are Primaris now. 

 

They can be, but they aren’t exclusively.

 

But you miss the point.  Terminators are an old marine design and always will be.  They have been around since the Rogue Trader era for 30+ years.  The look is refined and better detailed as kits get more sophisticated, but is otherwise essentially unchanged.
 

Similar case with Scouts.

 

Thus your assertion that old marines will be completely phased out is false.

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Robbienw

[Orange Knight]

Just now, Robbienw said:

They can  be, but they aren’t exclusively.

 

But you miss the point.  Terminators are an old marine design and always will be.  They have been around since the Rogue Trader era for 30+ years.  The look is refined and better detailed as kits get more sophisticated, but is otherwise essentially unchanged.
 

Similar case with Scouts.

 

Thus you assertion that old marines will be completely phased out is false.

 

 

Sure, they are an update on an old design.

 

You know who else is an old Marine? Commander Dante, and Azrael, and Calgar, and the Sternguard. 

 

I imagine some classic kits will remain for a long time, and will perhaps even receive an update. I can imagine a future version of the Landraider that is bigger and even more mighty.

 

That doesn't mean that the classic Marines won't have been superceded by the Primaris, possibly in their entirety, at some point in the future. 

[Orion]

13 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

MkX is simply superior in every way (in the lore), and is modular and flexible.

 

If you like the look, you can use the helmet of the MkVII. I think the new Sternguard kit shows this working quite well.

No, but it would be Venerable MKVII. They could do a full squad, with flamer and "retro" style missile launcher included.

Update the look a bit, but keep the overall styling. Like the new Primaris Terminators.
I think that would be a great edition to the Primaris range.

 

They could maybe to a Primaris MKVII Fire Support squad too, with a choice of heavy weapons.

[Robbienw]

6 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Sure, they are an update on an old design.

 

You know who else is an old Marine? Commander Dante, and Azrael, and Calgar, and the Sternguard. 

 There is a big difference. The terminators are essentially the same, a standard kit update.

 

The Sternguard and characters have Mk10 armour in full or in part.

[Blindhamster]

7 minutes ago, JayJapanB said:

No, but it would be Venerable MKVII. They could do a full squad, with flamer and "retro" style missile launcher included.

Update the look a bit, but keep the overall styling. Like the new Primaris Terminators.
I think that would be a great edition to the Primaris range.

 

They could maybe to a Primaris MKVII Fire Support squad too, with a choice of heavy weapons.

Id be surprised if we don't see a tactical squad update, and I'd be even more surprised if it didn't feature extensive mkVII and earlier bits.

That said, I also doubt we'll see a (new) squad COMPLETELY equipped as such in the foreseable future either.

 

It'd be really cool to get a tactical squad update that has parts to make wholly or predominantly mkVII on some guys, maybe some mkVIII and some mkVI bits too.

I would guess that torsos will primarily stick to the "new" mkX design, but I could see legs without knees (mkVI) and legs without the knee ridge (mkVII/mkVIII) being a thing on at least some models, some arms identical to the ones in the phobos kits would work fine as they're the same design as mkVII already. We've already seen mkVII and mkVI helms in primaris sets, so that's a given. There's definitely room to at the least, mix in elements of those earlier mks again, and narratively it makes sense too.

[Orion]

5 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Id be surprised if we don't see a tactical squad update, and I'd be even more surprised if it didn't feature extensive mkVII and earlier bits.

That said, I also doubt we'll see a (new) squad COMPLETELY equipped as such in the foreseable future either.

 

It'd be really cool to get a tactical squad update that has parts to make wholly or predominantly mkVII on some guys, maybe some mkVIII and some mkVI bits too.

I would guess that torsos will primarily stick to the "new" mkX design, but I could see legs without knees (mkVI) and legs without the knee ridge (mkVII/mkVIII) being a thing on at least some models, some arms identical to the ones in the phobos kits would work fine as they're the same design as mkVII already. We've already seen mkVII and mkVI helms in primaris sets, so that's a given. There's definitely room to at the least, mix in elements of those earlier mks again, and narratively it makes sense too.

Something smaller like bolt carbines could be cool too. They've also done different power packs on models like the Castellan and EC.

Just having a tac squad with heaps of armour variety would do wonders for the Primaris range. Heck even go with MKIV bits. Those helmets still look pretty different to MKX when you look at them.

 

If they did a missile launcher, I think it would have to be a different design to the desolation marine one. I think that should stay unique to that specialist squad. 

[Gederas]

5 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

10 have HBPs and chainswords/special melee options.

Ah, see that changes it I read "20 Veteran Intercessors" and my mind went to "the shooty ones"

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I think the old Marines will be completely phased out, and I think that the community will be better off if they accept this.

 

The conclusion that individuals reach will be their own of course - some may decide to collect Primaris, or a different faction, or they'll step away from the hobby entirely.

 

I agree with this sentiment. Hopefully what we see are even more high-quality community 3D designs for upscaled Mk 7 Marines.

 

This hobby began life with an individualistic spirit of fun and experimentation, and that has been lost over the years in favor of an overly corporate, commoditized gaming market. We can never go back to the "old days," but we can move forward with new technology to allow us to recapture some of that old spirit.