Do you think firstborn marines will be discontinued?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Robbienw said:

They can be, but they aren’t exclusively.

 

But you miss the point.  Terminators are an old marine design and always will be.  They have been around since the Rogue Trader era for 30+ years.  The look is refined and better detailed as kits get more sophisticated, but is otherwise essentially unchanged.
 

Similar case with Scouts.

 

Thus your assertion that old marines will be completely phased out is false.

 

The assertion is FB marines are being phased out, not unit names.

 

the current statement from GW that terminators can be both is clearly just them easing people into things

[Robbienw]

14 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The assertion is FB marines are being phased out, not unit names.

 

the current statement from GW that terminators can be both is clearly just them easing people into things

The assertion was old marines.

 

Indomitus terminators are an old marine unit. The new unit is just an update to the previous version. It’s not a mk10 armour variant, or new terminator variant.  It doesn’t even have kneepad rims.

 

Clearly GW has decided to keep some old marine units unchanged in look…

[Orange Knight]

The Sternguard Veterans are also an old Marine unit.

 

Primaris isn't a type of armour, it's the Marine inside it. The Terminator suits are now piloted by Primaris Marines.

[Robbienw]

23 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The Sternguard Veterans are also an old Marine unit.

 

Primaris isn't a type of armour, it's the Marine inside it. The Terminator suits are now piloted by Primaris Marines.

You miss the point.

 

It’s the armour type, not the marine inside.  Yes we know both types can fit in Terminator armour.

 

The Indomitus Terminators are an update of a 30+ year old classic marine design that has existed long before Primaris were a twinkle in Tom Kirby’s eye.  It’s an old marine design, both in the fluff and model  aspects.
 

Thus GW is keeping an old marine design as part of the 40k marine range.
 

The Sternguard otoh are in Mk10 armour.

 

 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

12 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Except Attack Bikes have been golden for years now. They sell because they're incredibly effective.

 

Thunderfire Cannons have been effective too.

 

In the new Index, the rules for Assault Marines are really solid. People were talking about putting them in their lists and theory crafting a bunch. I myself was gonna buy a unit.

 

So these things selling aren't the story.

 

I think the issue with attack bikes is how old those kits were.  I do not believe it made sense for GW to make new versions of those kits (like they did with tacticals squads, assault squads and devastator squads) otherwise we would have seen those updated as well along side of the other kits they updated in 6th(??) edition? 

I have no idea why GW went with the ATV over the attack bike, maybe it's just further part of that whole "tacticool" thing they are going for. 

I agree with you on the TFC as well, but I imagine the fact that its a finecast kit impacted it's sales for a lot of players around the world. 

Assault marines are in a tough spot though. You're paying $60 dollars for a 5-man kit of basic marines that have jump packs when all other basic marines are $60 for 10-man. I can't remember the other B&C member who brought up this point initially in another post, but we are likely going to see 2 new assault squad units coming out in the near future. A primaris assault intercessor with jump packs unit (or whatever they're going to be called) and an assault marine squad for 30k (the renderings of which have already been on the internet). I do not find it likely and thus do not anticipate we will see either of those kits as 5-man kits. They will most likely be 10-man squads at least (the 30k version could be 20!), and I do not expect them to be $120 USD for 10-20 (how much you'd be spending to get 2xAssault Squad boxes). Those sales would absolutely drop for those kits in favor of the new versions. 

That being said, I have no idea why GW made the decision to move them over to legends nor do I understand why they are trying to keep so many HH units out of competitive 40k. Initially I supposed it was because it was easier for them to balance the game without having to worry about 30k/FW rules being ported over.

I guess to be fair I could say they really are trying to move all legacy Marines over to 30k, but I'm not entirely convinced on that. What happens to CSM, the faction in game and in universe that is arguably the imperium and thus the space marines arch-rivals, when their own rivals are the super-SUPER human warriors and CSM is just stuck with super (and at times augmented by chaos) human warriors. What happens when CSM still has Rhinos and Land Raiders and loyalist SM don't? I think GW put themselves in a hard spot with how they introduced Primaris and at this point I'm pretty convinced there will always be some models in 40k that are "legacy" SM units. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Bloody Legionnaire
spelling

[Bloody Legionnaire]

27 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

You miss the point.

 

It’s the armour type, not the marine inside.  Yes we know both types can fit in Terminator armour.

 

The Indomitus Terminators are an update of a 30+ year old classic marine design that has existed long before Primaris were a twinkle in Tom Kirby’s eye.  It’s an old marine design, both in the fluff and model  aspects.
 

Thus GW is keeping an old marine design as part of the 40k marine range.
 

The Sternguard otoh are in Mk10 armour.

 

 

 

Emperor bless you, child.

I don't know why it's so hard for so many people to understand this. It's nice to know I'm not the only one out here who gets it!

 

 

57 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The Sternguard Veterans are also an old Marine unit.

 

Primaris isn't a type of armour, it's the Marine inside it. The Terminator suits are now piloted by Primaris Marines.

 

But you make it sound like every single suit of TDA is now donned by a "primaris" marine, but that just isn't true... It's like the fact that GW has created fluff stating primaris *could* be in them means they are all now the only marines in them. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Robbienw said:

The assertion was old marines.

 

Indomitus terminators are an old marine unit. The new unit is just an update to the previous version. It’s not a mk10 armour variant, or new terminator variant.  It doesn’t even have kneepad rims.

 

Clearly GW has decided to keep some old marine units unchanged in look…

In look, yes that’s not what’s being argued. Outward appearances mean nothing, it’s all about what’s on the inside.

38 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

You miss the point.

 

It’s the armour type, not the marine inside.  Yes we know both types can fit in Terminator armour.

 

The Indomitus Terminators are an update of a 30+ year old classic marine design that has existed long before Primaris were a twinkle in Tom Kirby’s eye.  It’s an old marine design, both in the fluff and model  aspects.
 

Thus GW is keeping an old marine design as part of the 40k marine range.
 

The Sternguard otoh are in Mk10 armour.

 

 

No, you’re the one missing the point.

 

the discussion is if firstborn are being done away with. The answer is unequivocally yes.

Primaris terminators are primaris terminators and not firstborn terminators.

[Sea Creature]

4 hours ago, Robbienw said:

They can be, but they aren’t exclusively.

 

But you miss the point.  Terminators are an old marine design and always will be.  They have been around since the Rogue Trader era for 30+ years.  The look is refined and better detailed as kits get more sophisticated, but is otherwise essentially unchanged.
 

Similar case with Scouts.

 

Thus your assertion that old marines will be completely phased out is false.

 

Black Templar neophytes are Primaris not FB.

[Robbienw]

4 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

In look, yes that’s not what’s being argued. Outward appearances mean nothing, it’s all about what’s on the inside.

Quite the contrary, that is what is being argued.

 

The provenance and look of the design are what is in relevant here, not the geneseed of the theoretical occupant of the model. 
 

Terminators are a classic marine design and are also staying in the 40k range.

[Robbienw]

14 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

the discussion is if firstborn are being done away with. The answer is unequivocally yes.

Primaris terminators are primaris terminators and not firstborn terminators.

That is in opposition to what GW stated in their article about the new terminator models.  They said in their WHC articles they can be worn by both firstborn veterans and Primaris marines, and that the suits are the same old tech they have always been.

 

They are not Primaris only terminators.

11 minutes ago, Sea Creature said:

Black Templar neophytes are Primaris not FB.

And yet they look nearly the same as FB scout models.

 

Thus the look is still the classic look.

[Karhedron]

This discussion is becoming circular. People are now arguing semantics as to whether the new Terminators are Primaris or not to try and prove their point. This is not constructive as the same handful of posters are simply stating and restating the same assertions over and over again.

 

Please either bring something fresh and less contentious to the discussion or it will be time to lock this thread. Thank you.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

32 minutes ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

 

Emperor bless you, child.

I don't know why it's so hard for so many people to understand this. It's nice to know I'm not the only one out here who gets it!

 

 

 

But you make it sound like every single suit of TDA is now donned by a "primaris" marine, but that just isn't true... It's like the fact that GW has created fluff stating primaris *could* be in them means they are all now the only marines in them. 

At this moment in the 40K timeline you’re right. However as the timeline moves forward more marines will cross the rubicon, and more FB marines will die in battle, and they’ll be replaced by more and more primaris.

 

you can fight the inevitable but just know you’re screaming hopelessly into the void.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

17 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

Quite the contrary, that is what is being argued.

 

The provenance and look of the design are what is in relevant here, not the geneseed of the theoretical occupant of the model. 
 

Terminators are a classic marine design and are also staying in the 40k range.

Just double checked the title, it’s definitely the marines themselves.

 

regardless it’s already been pointed out that both new sternguard and terminators have visual elements that are very much inspired by the new mkX armor types, so you’re all wrong in both regards.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

11 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

That is in opposition to what GW stated in their article about the new terminator models.  They said in their WHC articles they can be worn by both firstborn veterans and Primaris marines, and that the suits are the same old tech they have always been.

 

They are not Primaris only terminators.

And yet they look nearly the same as FB scout models.

 

Thus the look is still the classic look.

Lol short sightedness is so cute. 
Apparently you think no FB are ever going to cross the rubicon or die.

 

they made that statement simply to placate people like you who can’t just accept what’s happening.

another few years they’ll state flatout that firstborn are extinct or basically extinct.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

15 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

That is in opposition to what GW stated in their article about the new terminator models.  They said in their WHC articles they can be worn by both firstborn veterans and Primaris marines, and that the suits are the same old tech they have always been.

 

They are not Primaris only terminators.

And yet they look nearly the same as FB scout models.

 

Thus the look is still the classic look.

by nearly the same you mean they have bare heads and bare arms? That’s a single visual element, that doesn’t really make them look nearly the same.

[Robbienw]

1 minute ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Just double checked the title, it’s definitely the marines themselves.

 

regardless it’s already been pointed out that both new sternguard and terminators have visual elements that are very much inspired by the new mkX armor types, so you’re all wrong in both regards.

New Sternguard are in Mk10.

 

Terminators don’t have any major Mk10 elements, except maybe a bit of flexi armour at the waist.  They are quite clearly updated Indomitus terminators based on the same 34 year old design

as always.  They are not a new mk10 design.  GW has stated in their WHC articles that it’s the same old tech as before.  

[Robbienw]

3 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Lol short sightedness is so cute. 
Apparently you think no FB are ever going to cross the rubicon or die.

 

they made that statement simply to placate people like you who can’t just accept what’s happening.

another few years they’ll state flatout that firstborn are extinct or basically extinct.

They won’t be extinct if they have crossed the Rubicon though will they?

 

Im just telling you what GW have stated fella, you don’t have to get upset about it, and your inference on why they have made said statement is irrelevant.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Just now, Robbienw said:

New Sternguard are in Mk10.

 

Terminators don’t have any major Mk10 elements, except maybe a bit of flexi armour at the waist.  They are quite clearly updated Indomitus terminators based on the same 34 year old design

as always.  They are not a new mk10 design.  GW has stated in their WHC articles that it’s the same old tech as before.  

And yet there’s an entire multi paragraph post breaking down the mkX elements in the new terminator sculpts. 
 

but I’ll be here to watch you cry in a few years when they say all the FB marines are gone.

Just now, Robbienw said:

They won’t be extinct if they have crossed the Rubicon though will they?

 

Im just telling you what GW have stated fella, you don’t have to get upset about it, and your inference on why they have made said statement is irrelevant.

If they cross the rubicon they’re primaris marines and not firstborn. It doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to understand that.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

11 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

At this moment in the 40K timeline you’re right. However as the timeline moves forward more marines will cross the rubicon, and more FB marines will die in battle, and they’ll be replaced by more and more primaris.

 

you can fight the inevitable but just know you’re screaming hopelessly into the void.

 

There is no fluff stating that there are 0 legacy space marines being made. 

Only one of us is right... everything you're stating is pure conjecture. 

[Robbienw]

8 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

And yet there’s an entire multi paragraph post breaking down the mkX elements in the new terminator sculpts. 

All that means is Mk10 has some elements inspired by terminator armour.  GW has directly stated it’s the same old armour and not new Cawl technology or a new variant of terminator armour.  
 

Its just an updated Indomitus terminator kit, a classic 34 year old design that will not be going away 

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

10 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

All that means is Mk10 has some elements inspired by terminator armour.  GW has directly stated it’s the same old armour and not new Cawl technology or a new variant of terminator armour.  
 

Its just an updated Indomitus terminator kit, a classic 34 year old design that will not be going away 

 

 

Except those elements aren’t found in any of the older sculpts, but ok.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

12 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

All that means is Mk10 has some elements inspired by terminator armour.  GW has directly stated it’s the same old armour and not new Cawl technology or a new variant of terminator armour.  
 

Its just an updated Indomitus terminator kit, a classic 34 year old design that will not be going away 

 

 

 

And that is why I'm not really expecting legacy marines to completely disappear from the game. I don't think GW is going to stop with just Terminators. We could see updated tacticals at this point, or Land Raiders, or Rhinos, or who knows what else. 

Now that 10th edition has introduced datasheet abilities, it'll be easy to always have something to make a unit worth taking and distinct. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Kallas]

33 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

terminators have visual elements that are very much inspired by the new mkX armor types

They don't though. Sternguard do, they're in Mk X. Terminators, however, aside from the Librarian, is like 99.9% original Indomitus pattern Terminator armour.

 

2 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Except those elements aren’t found in any of the older sculpts, but ok.

If you want to highlight the actual changes made to the models that are in line with Mk X, please do. Otherwise, you're just making an unsubstantiated claim.

[Robbienw]

.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Robbienw
Doublepost

[Robbienw]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Except those elements aren’t found in any of the older sculpts, but ok.

You are saying that makes it a whole new type? 
 

That would be in direct opposition to what GW says and the fact the models look exactly like Indomitus Terminators.  I think in this instance I will go with GW and the visual evidence.