Do you think firstborn marines will be discontinued?

[Bloody Legionnaire]

7 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

 

You are saying that makes it a whole new type? 
 

That would be in direct opposition to what GW says and the fact the models look exactly like Indomitus Terminators.  I think in this instance I will go with GW and the visual evidence.

 

Right.. I totally missed that nu-Chaos Terminators had that extra doo-dad and off-position panel line when compared to the old kit.. This is a completely nU-type of Chaos Terminator making it modified and epic in ways the old one just wasn't.. it definitely isn't just a larger model with some artistic changes.... /s

Edited July 30, 2023 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Berzul]

At this point, you guys are just arguing head-canon.

 

GW has already stopped referring to Primaris Marines as Primaris Marines. For the most part, they are just Marines.

 

Over time, all sculpts will be resized, and those that are not, will be removed, and the entire distinction between Firstborn and Primaris will be over and done with, as far as GW will be concerned.

 

Already we are at the state in which a Terminator has a small marine or a large Marine, based entirely on your own head-canon. The same will be for all units. We will only have "Marines", and it will be up to each player to decide what they are. The lore of the game won't bother with the distinction, except in an anecdotal way  (I.E.: There was this time that there were two types of marines! Crazy, huh?).

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

They don't though. Sternguard do, they're in Mk X. Terminators, however, aside from the Librarian, is like 99.9% original Indomitus pattern Terminator armour.

 

If you want to highlight the actual changes made to the models that are in line with Mk X, please do. Otherwise, you're just making an unsubstantiated claim.

The post was already made I’m under no obligation to retype someone else‘s post

[Kallas]

25 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The post was already made I’m under no obligation to retype someone else‘s post

Oh of course Can you point me to that post then? I must have missed the breakdown.

[Blindhamster]

The new terminators do have /minor/ design tweaks, and those tweaks do align with gravis (already wrote them up earlier).

 

but 

 

I don’t think they indicate any kind of lore change to the armour, it’s purely minor design updates to make them visually tie in a little better with the modern marine kits (primaris) in the same way their size does.

 

it’s still just indomitus armour, with either type of marine in it. 
 

it’s not firstborn or primaris because that’s the marine inside it and GW said it can be either inside it, it’s not a new pattern of armour because GW said it isn’t. People can attribute the design as firstborn if they like, or firstborn if they like, both are incorrect as the term refers to the marine. They can say it’s still broadly the classic design and they’re 100% correct because it’s still indomitus terminator armour, the stuff made for engineers to deal with reactors (not originally for space marines at all)

 

kinda the end of the discussion lol.

 

why are people arguing again?

 

Overall, I think the next year will be telling, as mentioned, i think GW has course corrected a bit and whilst I think the mkX designs won’t go anywhere, I think the classic marine unit types will get 1:1 updates in a bunch of cases and the models will have considerably more references to earlier mks of armour

[Orange Knight]

Yeah I agree.

 

The next few releases, as mentioned by People like Valrak, are going to be updates of a few classic units:

 

-Assault Marines

-Scouts

-Updates of old HQ unit types

 

After that GW should ideally focus on updating the individual chapter units. I feel that once the jump pack squads and Scouts are released as part of the Primaris range, they've pretty much covered all the bases. They could release a Grav Gun squad in the future I suppose, something similar to the Hellblasters.

[Arikel]

A lot of folk here seem hungup on the models themselves, the genetics of the marine inside them, and what armour mark the giant space soldier is wearing. None of this is particularly important to me.

 

My issue is that the army has changed. I don’t want to play with intercessors, bladeguard, outriders and all the other oddly named no options all the same weapon space dudes. Even worse some of these come in heretically sized squads of 3-6 models.

 

I want to play with tacticals, devastators, assault squads, and all my other classics, adding new units of the same types as I expand my chapter.

The issue is not the the old models are not the same size or they are in a new armour mark.

 

The issue is that they have changed the entire character and structure of my army, and the new space marine army is not one I particularly have any attraction too, nor any interest in playing or collecting.

 

We shall see if they continue to support my army in the future. The new terminators and sternguard were a step in the right direction, a simple straight model replacement with most squad options intact.

 

The index also held promise, though rhinos and impulsors still being armor mark limited, and having separate entries for primaris hq’s were mistakes in my opinion.  The entries for standard marine units were otherwise fairly decent.

 

With the uncertainty now introduced that they might stop having proper rules support for the squads( not models) I want to use, of course I am concerned, possibly even upset. Changing to HH has the same issue, apart from trying to get my group interested in it.The army is not structured or designed in the same way, having more in common with the new Primaris army than the traditional chapter and company structure of Previous 40k space marine armies.

 

TLDR: It’s not the models. The army structure and character itself has changed and it’s no longer an army I like.

[Berzul]

1 hour ago, Arikel said:

Even worse some of these come in heretically sized squads of 3-6 models.

 

This has always bugged me. I hate this 3-6 format. 

[Helias_Tancred]

To the OP, yes in the future they will eventually be no firstborn marine kits produced or be present in the rules other than in legends. If I had my guess I'd say by the end of this edition or the one after?

 

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Eilio Tiberius

[spessmarine]

Circular arguments aside, refreshing classic marine kits is hardly what I'd call phasing out and instead is something that should have been done more to begin with.

[Orange Knight]

2 hours ago, spessmarine said:

Circular arguments aside, refreshing classic marine kits is hardly what I'd call phasing out and instead is something that should have been done more to begin with.

 

Should it? Look at the freedom and variety that the Primaris unlocked for the design studio. Lots of unit variety, lots of new designs, better tactical flexibility in the army, etc

 

I think that not tying them to the past units is the best decision GW ever did. And that isn't to say that some specific squads shouldn't be adopted for a Primaris glow up.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

21 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Should it? Look at the freedom and variety that the Primaris unlocked for the design studio. Lots of unit variety, lots of new designs, better tactical flexibility in the army, etc

 

I think that not tying them to the past units is the best decision GW ever did. And that isn't to say that some specific squads shouldn't be adopted for a Primaris glow up.

Idk if I’d say there’s more tactical flexibility in mono role units compared to units with multiple weapons options/types for that squad. 
 

7 bolters, a melta, and a lascannon, with plasma pistol and power sword is much more flexible than a 9 bolt rifles, a heavy bolt pistol, power sword and AGL.

[Orange Knight]

32 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Idk if I’d say there’s more tactical flexibility in mono role units compared to units with multiple weapons options/types for that squad. 
 

7 bolters, a melta, and a lascannon, with plasma pistol and power sword is much more flexible than a 9 bolt rifles, a heavy bolt pistol, power sword and AGL.

 

I would.

 

Especially when those units offer far greater varieties in profiles, weapons and capabilities. 

 

Example: an entire army of T6 infantry covering every battlefield role.

[Kallas]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Look at the freedom and variety that the Primaris unlocked for the design studio. Lots of unit variety, lots of new designs, better tactical flexibility in the army, etc

 

They were never prevented from adding additional units before, only by their own limitations. Nothing prevented them from adding Incinerators as an additional unit before Primaris, that was a self limitation.

 

As for tactical flexibility, I fail to see how it has increased when literally every role Primaris is 'introducing' already was covered by Firstborn.

 

You persistently state that Primaris are more flexible and less inhibited, but they're not, they're just using the opportunity to push more single-purpose kits. By having one unit = one role, they get to sell you three kits when one Firstborn kit would give you those three roles previously.

 

That's the bottom line. Primaris are better for GW because they get to force more sales.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Primaris didn't add anything in terms of tactical flexibility outside of 2 specific units: Heavily gunned flying troupes, and stealth walkers.

 

Neither of these should exist, as both are the domain of T'au, and the latter is goofy nonsense.

 

You have to point out T6 infantry as being the selling point for Primaris because Firstborne have done everything they currently do outside of the toughness shift for years. Devistator squads filled the support troupes nich with a single unit instead of 5. Tacticals could do everything the 4 different light infantry choices can do and more besides. And, frankly, Centurions were Primaris before Primaris.

 

This idea that Primaris added anything Tactical to the army aside from those 2 silly units is objectively nonsense. Even their dumb flying tanks can't fly anymore. 

 

Yes, Firstborne will eventually be faded out and replaced entirely by Primaris. But as the lore, writing, and design decisions that spawned Primaris come from designers who are creatively bankrupt, they'll either kill GW as a company or quietly retire the idea and let people use Horis Hericy kits in 40K after their upscale release is finished. I fully expect to be playing tacticals again before the end of the decade, and for their rules to be as good or better than Intercessors.

[Orange Knight]

There are lots of unique units the Primaris have added to Marines.

 

Flying infantry units with long range firepower, Tough Flying units with short range firepower, Open topped, fast moving transport allowing for variety of options, Stealth units with high strength weapons, Indirect Fire troops, Multiple dedicated infantry units geared for specific roles, etc etc

 

Before the Primaris, the lore was very restrictive and every new addition basically required a retconn. 

 

I mentioned a few pages back that after 6 years of anger and denial we could finally begin to move on, but sometimes it feels like we'll have 6 more years of it lol. There are still too many people in this topic bashing Primaris, refusing to move on, endlessly comparing them to what has come before in biased ways.

 

Games Workshop have made their choice, and over the last 6 years have integrated the Primaris into the setting so completely that there will be no reversal at this stage. The old heroes have crossed the Rubicon, and their chapters will follow. Ultimately the word itself might fall out of use. The Primaris are simply becoming the standard Marines.

[Orion]

26 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

There are still too many people in this topic bashing Primaris, refusing to move on, endlessly comparing them to what has come before in biased ways.

17 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

MkX is simply superior in every way

 

Brah.

[Orange Knight]

Lol if you want to quote me, please don't selectively cut-up my statements.

 

I was referring to the description in the lore. The appearance is entirely subjective. 

[Orion]

I'll be blunt:

What's your goal here? Because you're doing a terrible job of changing any minds.

You're clearly just as bias as anyone else yet try to take some objective high ground. 

[Blindhamster]

Personally, I think infiltrators/incursors are probably the most interesting additions and absolutely have added new tactical options.

 

inceptors also added an interesting new tactic and role, and I 100% disagree with them not fitting in. My blood angels love the idea of a more mobile shooty unit. 
 

the “stealth walker” is narratively interesting, I don’t think dreadnought chassis are meant to be hard to make, the life support/control side though, I think that may be. It opens options for more nimble walkers when needed. I just don’t think it should have been stealth themed.

 

suppressors are another quite interesting tactical choice, suppressing a unit so your assault squads can charge more safely serves a very clear purpose, and their ability to redeploy quickly opens up tactics cal considerations that stuff like devastators didn’t have.

 

desolation squads massed indirect fire is also a new option to marines which opens up some alternatives to certain battle situations.

 

now… you may not like some/all of these and that’s fair, but they’re definitely opening up new tactical options. Of course, they could have done the same with new firstborn units for each of these things, but they didn’t.

[Crimson Longinus]

7 hours ago, Berzul said:

 

This has always bugged me. I hate this 3-6 format. 

Agreed. At least previously you could field such units as five marine squads, but not anymore. I really wish they'd return the option to buy individual squad members. 

[Blindhamster]

A thing I like with primaris, is that the units released have let people lean into some chapters theme far more than they used to be able to. I think that’s pretty great personally. 
 

admittedly as a blood angel, that hasn’t really been the case for me, but that will hopefully change soon.

 

but if you’re a Raven guard, there’s a bunch of useful units that vibe really well with the stealthy theme. If you’re a salamander player you can use a bunch of eradicators and infernus marines for that sweet toastie action, imperial fists and iron hands can lean into the heavy armour/implacable warrior vibe with gravis to go alongside terminators and fists even have a bunker thing. 
 

I just think that’s pretty cool

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

9 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Personally, I think infiltrators/incursors are probably the most interesting additions and absolutely have added new tactical options.

 

inceptors also added an interesting new tactic and role, and I 100% disagree with them not fitting in. My blood angels love the idea of a more mobile shooty unit. 
 

the “stealth walker” is narratively interesting, I don’t think dreadnought chassis are meant to be hard to make, the life support/control side though, I think that may be. It opens options for more nimble walkers when needed. I just don’t think it should have been stealth themed.

 

suppressors are another quite interesting tactical choice, suppressing a unit so your assault squads can charge more safely serves a very clear purpose, and their ability to redeploy quickly opens up tactics cal considerations that stuff like devastators didn’t have.

 

desolation squads massed indirect fire is also a new option to marines which opens up some alternatives to certain battle situations.

 

now… you may not like some/all of these and that’s fair, but they’re definitely opening up new tactical options. Of course, they could have done the same with new firstborn units for each of these things, but they didn’t.

 

 

Not quite. In the case of suppression, indirect fire, stealth with high strength shooting, this is all bunk. Primaris missile launchers getting indirect is a goofy mechanic they gave them to set them apart from existing missile launchers. There's nothing saying that devistator missiles couldn't be shot in an arc over things, they just didn't bust that keg of worms open until now. Suppression fire is the same deal. In lore Devistators have been suppressing enemies with support fire so troups could assault, they just haven't had a mechanic for it since pinning went away. Stealth troups with high strength weapons? Scout squads with sniper rifles and missile launchers. Open top transports? Scouts had them way before Primaris did.

 

These things have always existed, but been restricted in their use and position to represent the flaws and rules of the universe. IE, Space Marines are heavily armored elite infantry, rhinos exist to protect them as they're getting brought from place to place, so you don't hack the roof off and expose them to incoming fire. Jump troupes didn't have giant guns because it's a limitation of jump pack technology. Terminators didn't have jump packs for the same reason. 

 

In terms of bringing new tactical options to the table? Only the above two I mentioned before. Everything else already had an existing nich. Scouts were sneaky troups you could give stealth tech to, Tacticals took and held ground. Etc etc. What Primaris actually did was give short term stat gains while introducing massive amounts of plot holes and :cuss:ery that we're still seeing the fallout from half a decade later.

 

Or, allow me to phrase it another way. If I were to buy GW right now, I could set things in motion to introduce a new brand of Space Marine. I could call them Maxilius Marines, say that they're 10 inches taller than a Primaris, that their MK 12 Godsmite pattern armor gives them T8 and a 2+ save, and lets them mount assault cannons on their shoulders. I could say that they weren't just made by Kawl, but that the Emperor himself, in his infinite wisdom, saw that he would be trapped on the throne and didn't kill the Thunder Warriors after all. He created these suits for them and placed them in stasus to be brought out at greatest need.

 

I could do that, and if I were the guy in charge of GW, that would be your new fluff, and you'd have to accept it, whether it was garbage or not. Not only that, you'd have to deal with the fact that those Godsmite armor troups began to replace all of the Primaris, removing them from the shelves, and shrug at people on forums who insist that these are just better in every way. They're larger models, they have new tactical possibilities as they are like tanks that walk as a man walks.

 

There is no sanctity to Primaris fluff, just like there isn't any to Firstborne. The only difference is that one came before the other, sat down all the rules, and brought all of us here. The other is a copy designed to break those rules in places to show that they're better, because the people who designed them didn't know any other way. 

[Blindhamster]

That’s fine, we don’t have to agree, I enjoy the options on the table, I prefer the models, the updates to the lore don’t upset me (though there were issues with the introduction).

 

im allowed to enjoy them, you’re allowed to not. I find the setting more interesting with the idea of some progress and innovation returning, because it’s still not enough, the imperium is doomed even with it. To me that’s both interesting and compelling, to you maybe it sucks, neither of us are right or wrong and I think after all these years tue people that like it and dislike it are pretty set and unlikely to change their minds.

 

you’re absolutely right that something else could come and replace it all, if it does, it does, there’s absolutely nothing I could do about it, other than not buy the things I don’t like. 
 

p.s. incursors are spotters now, that’s a new tactical option for marines. Infiltrators are wide area denial units, again it creates a specific role and purpose. It’s a new tactical option and frankly you won’t change my mind.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, JayJapanB said:

I'll be blunt:

What's your goal here? Because you're doing a terrible job of changing any minds.

You're clearly just as bias as anyone else yet try to take some objective high ground. 

 

What bias do you believe I have? I bought 4500 points of Horus Heresy models, entirely new, over the last year. My support for "Firstborn" Marines probably exceeds that of most people on the forum.

 

I'm simply weary of seeing the same discussions and incorrect assertions cropping up time and again, and I have decided not to ignore them.

 

I've made a point about how the refusal of some to accept the perfectly valid direction GW have decided to take the 40k marine range in has led to a perpetual negative lens they view things from. It's a poison chalice, and it won't lead to any constructive agreement on anything going forward. 

 

Let's put it this way:

 

Primaris have been around for 6 years. They are replacing the old range and have already become the default Astartes of the 40k setting.

 

As time goes on, more and more of the old kits will be replaced with Primaris versions. If a person has decided that they dislike the new direction, and refuse to be open minded about it, what joy are they expecting to get from following this particular 40k faction going forward?