Do you think firstborn marines will be discontinued?

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

14 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

That’s fine, we don’t have to agree, I enjoy the options on the table, I prefer the models, the updates to the lore don’t upset me (though there were issues with the introduction).

 

im allowed to enjoy them, you’re allowed to not. I find the setting more interesting with the idea of some progress and innovation returning, because it’s still not enough, the imperium is doomed even with it. To me that’s both interesting and compelling, to you maybe it sucks, neither of us are right or wrong and I think after all these years tue people that like it and dislike it are pretty set and unlikely to change their minds.

 

you’re absolutely right that something else could come and replace it all, if it does, it does, there’s absolutely nothing I could do about it, other than not buy the things I don’t like. 
 

p.s. incursors are spotters now, that’s a new tactical option for marines. Infiltrators are wide area denial units, again it creates a specific role and purpose. It’s a new tactical option and frankly you won’t change my mind.

 

Damn. You got me. I forgot that Incursors are the only marines with radios and eyes. Well shoot, back to the drawing board I guess. I'll have to rethink my whole understanding of how Marine Tactics work.

 

Except, wait a second...Hasn't calling in Artillery been a thing we've done since we as a species created it? Didn't 8th edition have an Orbital Bombardment strat all SM armies could use? Wasn't there a Crusade upgrade that let any SM character become the Master of the Fleet?

 

Well maybe Infiltrators are unique though. Except, scrambling comm systems has always been an aspect of warfare since we started using Radio. It's almost like Scouts could have, and in Killteam always have, had scrambling equipment all along. Or that Tech Marines often did this on a much larger scale.

 

Sure do wish the Respectfully Disagree button was accessible for blind users. But as it doesn't seem to work for me, have a like instead. 

[Lord_Ikka]

=][= This thread is being locked for a cooling-off period of 24 hours. When this thread unlocks, I will remind all fraters to keep the conversation on topic and civil. =][=

[FarFromSam]

To Rekick this thread off and reply to the topic's original question.  I hope so. 

 

I also hope primaris are discontinued as well.  

 

The index has shows GW testing the waters on removing primaris keyword from a whole list of keywords.  Listing terminators as both gives me hope for a return to sanity.   The upscale of the unit seems to please the fan base as a whole.  I hope they take note.  

 

Real marines had a huge number of units meet the ax.  Now It's my hope they do the same for primaris units.   Why do we need an infernus squad, a desolator squad, and a hellblaster squad with individual entries when 30k has a streamlined support squads that achieve similar results?  

 

If the ax is sharp, keep swinging.   

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by farfromsam

[Kallas]

44 minutes ago, farfromsam said:

Why do we need an infernus squad, a desolator squad, and a hellblaster squad with individual entries

So they can sell you three kits instead of one. That's it, really. It's way better financially when they can just get you to spend three times as much as previously. They won't trim down Primaris, despite the bloat they have, because they get to cash in more when they split units out into more boxes.

[Blindhamster]

As @Kallas says, the reason they won't do that, is they've switched things up in a way that lets them sell more models and make more money from their cash cow faction.

 

That said, even from a mechanics standpoint, I personally much prefer the fact that each of those mentioned units gets a special ability unique to them.

 

BUT, I do think primaris will lose some units, much like firstborn (not `real marines`) have.

I also think stuff like outriders, should just become "bikers", or perhaps, bikers just become outriders, point being, i'd like to see a lot of the units just axed or to be potentially axed in the future, get updates that allow for the existing kits or new kits to be used to represent them, I'm still hoping sternguard retain their current options like melee for the sergeant for example, outriders should gain sergeant weapon options and access to some form of special weapons ideally etc. and as mentioned, totally agree, lets kill the primaris keyword and merge stuff like "captain" and "primaris captain" when they're the same thing with one having slightly different options and an extra keyword... so dumb.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Dracos]

3 hours ago, farfromsam said:

To Rekick this thread off and reply to the topic's original question.  I hope so. 

 

I also hope primaris are discontinued as well.  

 

The index has shows GW testing the waters on removing primaris keyword from a whole list of keywords.  Listing terminators as both gives me hope for a return to sanity.   The upscale of the unit seems to please the fan base as a whole.  I hope they take note.  

 

Real marines had a huge number of units meet the ax.  Now It's my hope they do the same for primaris units.   Why do we need an infernus squad, a desolator squad, and a hellblaster squad with individual entries when 30k has a streamlined support squads that achieve similar results?  

 

If the ax is sharp, keep swinging.   

 

 

Are you purposefully baiting people to get the thread closed permanently?

 

Espousing the discontinuation of Primaris? Vocabulary like “Real Marines” are just inflammatory. There has to be a better way to kick the conversation back off than this. Doesn’t there?

[Sea Creature]

Indeed there does Dracos.

[Beta galactosidase]

On 7/30/2023 at 5:59 PM, Arikel said:

 Even worse some of these come in heretically sized squads of 3-6 models.

 

 

TLDR: It’s not the models. The army structure and character itself has changed and it’s no longer an army I like.

 

what about the 3-marine squads existing as real breathing characters?

 

one of the worst things is the new flamer squad.  A firstborn tactical squad looks a lot like a real-life fire team, where the bolter or rifle troops have a really important job defending the weapons trooper so they can move against resistance, and the weapons trooper does the damage. You can see the marines cooperating with each other, communicating, taking the roles they’ve practiced.  On the other hand the new flamer squad can only exist in the artificial environment of a five turn game where the deployment zones are 24” away from each other.  This particular case is old-good, new-bad.

 

3-6 marine squads aren’t like that though, they’re the opposite.  The classic ‘90s bike squad is three marines, and imo the game should in part be balanced around that being practical.

 

mote important are snipers.  A unit of 5-10 scouts with every model carrying a sniper rifle is just fake.  The current eliminators with two rifles and a carbine sergeant is treats the marines a lot more like living real characters.  
 

Living characters would have one sniper, or a sniper and spotter, or a sniper and a whole rifle squad protecting him, and none of them fire until turn 4. The game doesn’t support that, it’s what real characters would do but the very artificial  structure of the game makes it impossible.

 

5-10 for everything is us, out of universe, having an irrational attachment to factors of ten.  Is it? What background about 5-10 marines being more important than in-character effectiveness did I overlook?  We’ve had decades of 3-model bike squads, 2-, 4-, and 6- model speeder units, and singletons in flyers, rhinos, and impulsors 

[FarFromSam]

3 hours ago, Dracos said:

Are you purposefully baiting people to get the thread closed permanently?

 

Espousing the discontinuation of Primaris? Vocabulary like “Real Marines” are just inflammatory. There has to be a better way to kick the conversation back off than this. Doesn’t there?

 

 

Nope.  Respectfully disagree here, I don't want to rouse rabble.  I tried hard to be very middle of the road.  Reuniting the marine faction seems like a great way to mend the recent rift.  

 

Not trying to upset ya, and I'm sorry if I did.   What are some other ways to streamline and merge?  I wouldn't mind seeing centurion and aggressors merge.

Edited August 2, 2023 by farfromsam

[Arikel]

Bikers came in 3 man squads, but could expand to 8 bikes plus the attack bike so you could have a full 10 man squad mounted up as needed if you wanted to.

 

I hear you on the snipers though, kinda odd to have a full squad outfitted with them, as a sniper rifle is more of a special weapon than anything else. I don’t remember if they allowed scouts to mix and match or if it was a whole unit thing. The way snipers used to work in game though they weren’t great unless it was a whole mass of them. Even IG have the ratling squad for massed sniper fire.

 

I know it’s not a practical thing really but I am comforted by the thought of 10 man squads or combat squads of 5. Part of the whole pseudo-mythical roman army thing. 10 squads of 10 make up a century, 10 centuries for a legion and so on. Squads locked at 3 and 6 mess with my math;)

[Orange Knight]

Streamlining the range will be difficult because GW have written some fun and interesting rules for the different unit varieties.

 

The Gladiator tank would have been one unit that could be streamlined into a single datasheet, but now each variant is a unique unit with unique special rules - and those rules are fun and compelling.

 

Stripping away the firstborn is the only way to immediately reduce the datasheets and numbers of units. A few of the Primaris kits also need to be updated to bridge the gap between the ranges a bit better.

 

-Outriders need an updated kit or upgrade sprue with additional options (but not as many as the original bikers. Most weapon upgrades come from different kits and this is tedious and expensive for new and old hobbyists alike).

-GW need to release an Outrider Captain

-The scouts and flying units need to come out, and this is going to happen according to rumours.

 

The 40k Landraider is obviously a very iconic unit. It goes hand in hand with Terminators. GW should probably update the kit and make it even bigger and more powerful, perhaps closer in model size to a Spartan.

 

At this point, ideally the old units will be phased out. I imagine this will still take 3 - 6 years. By that time all battlefield roles will be covered by the Primaris, and both Terminators and Scouts will be part of the updated range (hopefully the Landraider too)

From this point onwards, GW should focus on updating kits for the divergent chapters, and delivering more unique chapter specific heroes and units for chapters in general.

 

[Bryan Blaire]

Primaris as a term for Marines falling out of GW’s vernacular would be a great thing, and the air of personal superiority that some have chosen to taken on with the term’s use has been detrimental to Marine players as a whole. Marines are Marines.  I think the new squad set ups are inferior to the old ones, personally, but that means little and I don’t think GW owns a time machine to go back and remake what I see as poor design decisions on their rules.  I am glad to see GW going back to supporting Counts-As in rules, and I hope they continue to expand it.

 

Squads of three or six easily fit into 5/10 math by having multiples of them that end up with those values: one squad of six, plus three squads of three gives you 15, etc.

 

It would be nice if the “Primaris” range wasn’t so bloated, but as others have said, that makes it easier for GW to sell more, and ultimately that’s their only goal - it certainly isn’t the game itself.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Lemondish]

6 hours ago, farfromsam said:

What are some other ways to streamline and merge?

 

What are we trying to merge? Datasheets or model kits?

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

 

BUT, I do think primaris will lose some units, much like firstborn (not `real marines`) have.

 

 DONT YOU EVEN DARE SAY IT!!!! :P

 

LOL. I like all the new stuff but one of the things I loved the most was the 6/2/2 and I feel Primaris ruined/destroyed? that side of me.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Brother Captain Arkley

[Berzul]

54 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

 

What are we trying to merge? Datasheets or model kits?

 

Lore and terminology alone, would help a lot.

 

Which is what GW is probably aiming at.

 

Once Primaris can do anything and everything Firstborn did, you can then stop with the distinction and just call them all "Marines". 

 

From there, the overlap of Firstborn and Primaris becomes just a series of redundancies between "Marine" squads. And you can take out the ones you dont want, out of the codex.

[FarFromSam]

2 hours ago, Lemondish said:

 

What are we trying to merge? Datasheets or model kits?

Personally, Berzul has it right with lore. (Retcon a lot.)

 

Realistically,  terminology is step one.  His response above nails it.

 

If we're talking about datasheets or model kits specifically.   Datasheets first.  Using the gladiator as an example,  they could add in:

▪︎up to three may be taken in any combination.

Or put the special rules under weapon profiles.  

 

Kits, I'm not purchasing GW marines.  Them fleecing new player is bad for the hobby, but that's not their goal as a company.   So, maybe they can reinvest the money taken here back into the rules/points and create balance. 

 

[Marshal Reinhard]

3 hours ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Primaris as a term for Marines falling out of GW’s vernacular would be a great thing, and the air of personal superiority that some have chosen to taken on with the term’s use has been detrimental to Marine players as a whole. 

Think the same could be said of "First born"

[Berzul]

46 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Think the same could be said of "First born"

 

Again, Games Workshop is clearly moving away from both terms. 

 

The Terminators are a VERY telling step in that direction.

 

 

Games Workshop had already taken to the attitude of referring to the Primaris line as simply the Space Marines. Because, clearly, the goal was to establish them as the default and base of the army, moving forward. However, there still remained the issue of units that were Firstborn, making the distinction between both sub-class of Astartes necessary and present.

 

Now, Terminators (a traditionally only Firstborn unit) can be fielded as primaris or firstborn. Whatever fits your own headcannon. The distinction between them is irrelevant.

 

Same will eventually apply to the whole army. Units will just be "marines", and any argument about Primaris vs Firstborn will be only on us, as a community. Games Workshop will have moved on by then.

[Evil Eye]

4 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

The 40k Landraider is obviously a very iconic unit. It goes hand in hand with Terminators. GW should probably update the kit and make it even bigger and more powerful, perhaps closer in model size to a Spartan.

A new Land Raider would be nice just because the old one is a serious bugger to actually assemble. But it doesn't need to be bigger, it's already pretty enormous. Just refine the details and make it go together better, and throw in the Crusader/Redeemer parts onto the base sprue. Parts for a Helios, Prometheus and Achilles would be cool too but that's wishful thinking.

[Crimson Longinus]

1 hour ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Think the same could be said of "First born"

That's not an official term to begin with. 

[Berzul]

5 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

That's not an official term to begin with. 

 

Again, it will be irrelevant, soon enough.

[DemonGSides]

9 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

That's not an official term to begin with. 

It absolutely is. 

[Arikel]

1 hour ago, Berzul said:

 

Lore and terminology alone, would help a lot.

 

Which is what GW is probably aiming at.

 

Once Primaris can do anything and everything Firstborn did, you can then stop with the distinction and just call them all "Marines". 

 

From there, the overlap of Firstborn and Primaris becomes just a series of redundancies between "Marine" squads. And you can take out the ones you dont want, out of the codex.

To be honest, with the initial statements that GW made that transports were going to be for everyone, and the statements for terminators/sternguard that they were essentially both types in the same squad I really thought GW was killing primaris/firstborn thing as an in game distinction.

 

When the index came out we saw that instead it’s a mess full of half measures. Land Raiders are useable by all but rhinos and impulsors are still limited. Some but not all unit sheets have different stats, and armor keywords or their lack are used instead.There are separate sheets for most leaders based on primaris/firstborn versions, with little or no difference between them except gear selection. On the other hand, the chaplain on bike profile can be used for a firstborn or a primaris model. Even stupider, while removing the excessive bolter types available to intercessors, they continue to arm tactical and devastator squads with inferior boltguns instead of boltrifles.

 

To sum up, this edition started with them declaring there are little if any differences between firstborn and primaris, and then they  just didn’t follow through properly. Firstborn still haven’t learned where the trigger is on a bolt rifle, Primaris still haven’t figured out how to operate the doors on a Rhino, and we’re still left stuck in this stupid mess fighting over something that could have been fixed by the game maker years ago.

[Crimson Longinus]

4 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

It absolutely is. 

Where has GW used it? At least originally it was just something that the fans of the old marines invented.

[Blindhamster]

9 minutes ago, Arikel said:

Even stupider, while removing the excessive bolter types available to intercessors, they continue to arm tactical and devastator squads with inferior boltguns instead of boltrifles.

This is done because if they didn't, there'd be no point in them continuing to have intercessors. Chances are that the end goal may be for them to have tacticals and intercessors get merged, but intercessor squad is the name that will stay, because its possible for them to protect the IP of that name.

7 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

Where has GW used it? At least originally it was just something that the fans of the old marines invented.

No, originally ADB used it in spears of the emperor, and people liked it so it kinda stuck.

It has been used in numerous WHC articles too.