Do you think firstborn marines will be discontinued?

[FarFromSam]

12 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

Where has GW used it? At least originally it was just something that the fans of the old marines invented.

Can we stop this?  Marines are marines going forwards.  We don't need distinctions, let's put this in the past and come together on hating space elves again.

 

(Edit- not you specifically.  I'm guilty too.  We I mean.  The royal We.  Apologies in advance.)

Edited August 2, 2023 by farfromsam
Clarifying

[Crimson Longinus]

In any case, I agree that they should do away with the division of marines into primaris and non-primaris. I was pleased when I heard that the transport limitations would be gone, but disappointed when I learned that they remained on the Rhino and the Impulsor, and that there was a new division concerning the leaders. Just let marines be marines and stop this nonsense!

[Berzul]

4 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

and that there was a new division concerning the leaders.

 

This, in particular, annoys me.

 

Most named characters in many Chapters are Space Marines, instead of Space Marines. So, they can only lead Space Marines units, and are unable to lead Space Marines units. Which makes them pretty much useless, as many are simply infantry characters, and as such, can mostly just lead units such as Tacticals or Devastators. 

 

As a Dark Angels player, I became quite upset seeing how Ezekiel and Asmodai, for example, are now pretty much impossible to field. I used to play these guys all the time, before 10th. 

[Bryan Blaire]

3 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Think the same could be said of "First born"

Totally agreed - any “superiority” claimed is ridiculous as a player, given that it was completely artificial and driven exclusively by GW decisions for sales.  The divide itself has been ridiculous.

 

And I was one of the first denouncers of the absurdity of the term “First Born” for Marines when people seized on it.  Took a lot of flak here for it.

 

The player base will be better for it when there is an end to this (which GW can continue to support by increasing the Counts-As list already established).

Edited August 2, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Emperor Ming]

Cant we shorten this thread now to: Yes

[Beta galactosidase]

2 hours ago, Arikel said:

 Firstborn still haven’t learned where the trigger is on a bolt rifle, Primaris still haven’t figured out how to operate the doors on a Rhino,

 

 

The standard bolt gun is important for marines because they are assault troops and they use a shorter weapon for tight confines.  The actual question is again why do the game rules really underserve the background.  A bolt round theoretically instakills any guard officer or inquisitor, but for some reason they can’t be damage 3 against infantry, or models below t6 or something.  

of course even with the two marine profiles merged, and with renegade primaria or stolen gene seed, chaos marines still carry regular bolt guns and it’s nice to have a credible rival.

 

The intercessor bolt rifle is more like what the irl global pillage marine corps did. They switched their light machine gun for an even lighter automatic rifle the m27, and also upsized their infantry rifle to that same m27.  They all have a cross between an inadequate machine gun and really souped up rifle.  It makes sense for intercessors to have the same model, whereas tactical squads have smaller boltguns but bigger specials.  Although as Inq Lensoven said, the irl marines still bring an anti tank rocket and sometimes a mortar.  
 

*Rhinos*
 

One of the significant things about Primaris is a soft retcon.  GW is essentially affirming that firstborn really are designed to fit in human-occupied spaces and squeeze themselves into standard STC human sized rhinos, but since people sometimes insist that marines are gigantihuge, the eventual standard marine (currently called primaris) is gigantihuge.  They can’t fit in STC rhinos, they can’t easily duck through the standard 6’8” door that’s in my house, the hospital, my office, university etc.  The new standard marine conforms with a popular image, and this popular image is kind of stupid so they can’t fit in rhinos.  It’s also why the transports have to be skimmers, because treaded rhinos can fit two-per thunderhawk transporter, and the upsized impulsors can’t so they have to drop by themselves.

 

 

6 hours ago, Bryan Blaire said:

I think the new squad set ups are inferior to the old ones, personally, but that means little and I don’t think GW owns a time machine to go back and remake what I see as poor design decisions on their rules.  I am glad to see GW going back to supporting Counts-As in rules, and I hope they continue to expand it.

 

Squads of three or six easily fit into 5/10 math by having multiples of them that end up with those values: one squad of six, plus three squads of three gives you 15, etc.

 

 

The squads, the number of marines per sergeant, can still even be one sergeant in every nine.  If they’re divided on field into 2 or 3 different types, they’re still bunking messing and training together.  it’s always been this way with speeders, attack bikes, tank and flyer crew, combat squads in general.  The 2020 codex even specifies this.

 

the interesting thing is that GW published this diagram of an Ultramarines company with 12 squads (four squads <10 and eight squads of ten).  They included ten sergeants in red helmets, and two squads with un-helmeted leaders, not obvious to say if those are really extra squads with extra sergeants or if they’re combat squads

 

 

 

[Sea Creature]

Primaris will continue to exist until there’s a vast number of people playing that aren’t familiar with the term.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Sea Creature said:

Primaris will continue to exist until there’s a vast number of people playing that aren’t familiar with the term.

Pretty much. Even if GW confirms tomorrow all new marines in lore are primaris and all of the chapters refusing to make primaris were destroyed somehow, people would still use the terms for another decade or more, until FB just generally fall under the title of old hammer.

[Dracos]

Primaris aren’t going anywhere do to IP rights protection. Just a fact of life. 
 

I don’t necessarily think anyone should be proclaiming one is better than the other but I do want the differences between them to remain maybe even widen.
 

Physically, the Primaris should be a step between the Firstborn and the Custodies. First born should have stratagems that Primaris do not have available to them.  this way the lore matches the background, Primaris or physically, superior, Firstborn or tactically superior.

 

The next step would be to create two codexes, one for each faction that allows one to borrow from the other at a price both be balanced. 
 

Dreamland I know. 

[Berzul]

23 minutes ago, Dracos said:

Primaris aren’t going anywhere do to IP rights protection. Just a fact of life. 
 

I don’t necessarily think anyone should be proclaiming one is better than the other but I do want the differences between them to remain maybe even widen.
 

Physically, the Primaris should be a step between the Firstborn and the Custodies. First born should have stratagems that Primaris do not have available to them.  this way the lore matches the background, Primaris or physically, superior, Firstborn or tactically superior.

 

The next step would be to create two codexes, one for each faction that allows one to borrow from the other at a price both be balanced. 
 

Dreamland I know. 

 

Yeah, that's not going to happen. If 8th and 9th are anything to go by, 10th should see stratagems favoring Primaris more, and even exclusively. 

 

GW has not given any indication as to be seeking to make one type of marine complimentary to the other. We should not hold out to the hope or expectation of Firstborn having "tactical superiority" over the Primaris's physical superiority.

 

Again, the design theory around Primaris continues to be, to my estimation, "Whatever the Firstborn can do, but better, and them something else and extra on top of that".

Edited August 2, 2023 by Berzul

[Beta galactosidase]

Yes firstborn aren’t don’t have an advantage in background.  Huge numbers  are century old veterans who crossed the rubicon, and cawl’s awakened brothers now have 20+ years’ experience at higher intensity than in the ‘00s

[Dracos]

1 hour ago, Dracos said:

Primaris aren’t going anywhere do to IP rights protection. Just a fact of life. 
 

I don’t necessarily think anyone should be proclaiming one is better than the other but I do want the differences between them to remain maybe even widen.
 

Physically, the Primaris should be a step between the Firstborn and the Custodies. First born should have stratagems that Primaris do not have available to them.  this way the lore matches the background, Primaris or physically, superior, Firstborn or tactically superior.

 

The next step would be to create two codexes, one for each faction that allows one to borrow from the other at a price both be balanced. 
 

Dreamland I know. 

you can “disagree” with my opinion, my wishlist, I suppose …. but sometimes a family has in reconcilable difference …. and divorce is the best answer for everyone’s long term mental health. 

[Bryan Blaire]

1 hour ago, Dracos said:

The next step would be to create two codexes, one for each faction that allows one to borrow from the other at a price both be balanced. 
 

Dreamland I know. 

We aren’t going to see two Codexes - we are going to remain with one, with only Marines in it, regardless of what GW persists in calling them.

 

We might get more Legends entries though, and additional Counts-As where GW says things like “Pile 5 Plasma Gun Marines together, use as Hellblasters” and things like that (something I’ve been pointing out people can actually already do, but people don’t like not having things written officially for them, even if they aren’t playing “official” games).

Edited August 2, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[FarFromSam]

21 minutes ago, Dracos said:

you can “disagree” with my opinion, my wishlist, I suppose …. but sometimes a family has in reconcilable difference …. and divorce is the best answer for everyone’s long term mental health. 

I love a good self quote, but it seems like GW is focused on promoting new kits players will need to purchase vs supporting older kits that take resources to make playable.

[Dracos]

1 hour ago, Bryan Blaire said:

We aren’t going to see two Codexes - we are going to remain with one, with only Marines in it, regardless of what GW persists in calling them.

Yeah I said it was a wishlist. 
 

So … you’re saying you refuse to identify your Astartes as Primaris regardless of what they prefer?  Rage against the machine?

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Dracos

[Bryan Blaire]

@Dracos Yeah, I’ve been pretty clear on my opinion of not giving much of a crap for GW’s lore… it’s been pretty bad for decades.  I don’t think the recent developments have done any better.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Dracos]

@Bryan Blaire dude you are fine to hate on whatever you want but after a while it really rains acid on the rest of us trying to enjoy the hobby 

[Bryan Blaire]

9 minutes ago, Dracos said:

@Bryan Blaire dude you are fine to hate on whatever you want but after a while it really rains acid on the rest of us trying to enjoy the hobby 

That’s cool - they sell replaceable ponchos - I know I keep mine handy to not worry about others’ acid.  I’m sure everyone will get through.  You can enjoy your hobby while I enjoy mine - I enjoy my toy soldiers plenty over here.  

Edited August 2, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Evil Eye]

2 hours ago, Dracos said:

@Bryan Blaire dude you are fine to hate on whatever you want but after a while it really rains acid on the rest of us trying to enjoy the hobby 

You know what else rains acid on people trying to enjoy a hobby? Having a key part of what you loved about the hobby slowly removed and replaced with a shadow of its former self whilst the company behind it lies about it and people tell you you're crazy for thinking it's happening, then that you're just being grumpy when they can't deny it any longer.

 

Quite frankly, the situation sucks and the amount of people who seem to think that it's fine or a "good thing" makes me sick. Certain individuals who will remain unnamed seem to have a borderline-smug attitude to the removal of classic Marines, and honestly if their reaction to it is smarmy "well I'm alright Jack" then to be quite honest they deserve to be as miserable as us. After all, if we have to put up with their constant enforced positivity and cheerleading for a gigantic corporation, then they should have to put up with our negativity and bellyaching.

[Dracos]

@farfromsam I don’t think so? Bryan’s cool I’m just having hard time understanding members who seem so emotionally tied to past products that we get in these periods of where it seems new is bad. 
 

This is my thirtieth year (omg) connected to the hobby. I’ve played almost exclusively Space Marines all those years. I must have collected and painted a different DIY Chapter each edition … and while I am going to really miss playing with boxnaughts (my favorite model ever) and landspeeders, in the end … their just toys …

 

… so no matter how much I’ve enjoyed them or the novels I read along with playing the game … I can replace them with new toys that are similar and allow me to have same fun either with friends or in tournaments. Not exactly the same but close. 
 

Primaris models brought me back to the game after npt playing in 6th and 7th (life). Which is a neat trick because I love building hate painting but  won’t play with unpainted models. My own irrational  issue I know. So while I assume it’s not intentional when Primaris get hated on it feels like that section of the community is saying I should never had come back and I’m part of what’s the problem in the game today. 
 

For enjoying the new version of my toys. 
 

It’s been 30 years.
 

I can’t imagine the flagship of any company line not changing over that time period and continue as it’s top product. Eventually stagnation sets in and  even old consumers get to a point of saturation. Product is going to have to change in some way to keep people purchasing new stuff. 
 

I get maybe the lore is the part that really bothers some people but again after 30 years it’s going to need updated, retconned for newer generation. I understand the angst. I’ve collected comic books for 50 years and just don’t get what they’re doing today. So I don’t buy them. I roleplay supers. Watch supers movies and tv shows but I won’t invest in comics because my money should be spent on things I enjoy. 
 

You can still enjoy the hobby without liking the lore. That’s what I hope Bryan meant when he said he still enjoys the hobby. I really hope that’s true. I’d just like to see the community that doesn’t like the lore or models just move on from it … because it won’t change GW and just ends up with us at each others throats on occasion, which none of us need to have over something as simple as enjoying our toys. 

[Dracos]

8 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

You know what else rains acid on people trying to enjoy a hobby? Having a key part of what you loved about the hobby slowly removed and replaced with a shadow of its former self whilst the company behind it lies about it and people tell you you're crazy for thinking it's happening, then that you're just being grumpy when they can't deny it any longer.

 

Quite frankly, the situation sucks and the amount of people who seem to think that it's fine or a "good thing" makes me sick. Certain individuals who will remain unnamed seem to have a borderline-smug attitude to the removal of classic Marines, and honestly if their reaction to it is smarmy "well I'm alright Jack" then to be quite honest they deserve to be as miserable as us. After all, if we have to put up with their constant enforced positivity and cheerleading for a gigantic corporation, then they should have to put up with our negativity and bellyaching.

Your anger and hate is really very misdirected. You want to address GW then go after GW. No one would argue your right to complain to the company. Emails, boycott, whatever … 
 

… but to think you have a right to make others miserable who enjoy what they are producing is inappropriate. 
 

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Dracos

[Evil Eye]

I mean, by continuing to support GW's greed and erasure of what attracted a lot of us to the hobby to begin with you're indirectly making US miserable, so...

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

I mean, by continuing to support GW's greed and erasure of what attracted a lot of us to the hobby to begin with you're indirectly making US miserable, so...

So you’d be happier if no one bought their best selling line, and the company went bankrupt?

[Evil Eye]

4 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

So you’d be happier if no one bought their best selling line, and the company went bankrupt?

Considering how badly GW has been mismanaging the game? Yes! Ideally their IP would go into the public domain (or at least would be picked up by someone with a less draconian approach to derivative works/fanmade content), but between the vast amount of previously released editions, already-extant models/the secondary market and the ever-expanding 3D printing scene? We don't NEED them. And between the sheer amount of talent they've been losing and the fact that I'm pretty sure Jes Goodwin is the only Old Guard left, if GW did fold, what would we really lose? Old GW is gone anyway.

[MegaVolt87]

The great replacement of firstborn is happening. I don't like it but it's true. People should be planning on closing out collections, use older 40k editions to keep firstborn around. Ideally, GW makes a 40k type specialist game that spans end of the scouring to beginning of the 13th black Crussade, use 3-7th 40k rules, HH rules for it, no primaris in it. Re-sell us the old stuff like termi Calgar + Nids invasion campaign of Ultramar,Badab War, imperial armour etc. They are leaving far too much money on the table with what they are doing now.