Do you think firstborn marines will be discontinued?

[Blindhamster]

I think, firstborn and primaris will slowly merge, primaris will start having more and more pre mkX components (as seen on things like the emperors champions), and it will eventually get to the point where its all primaris scale, the term primaris has gone and mkX is basically a new armour type and multiple armour types are seen across all units (probably at that point with some firstborn and primaris units being consolidated, and maybe some of both going the way of the dodo as well).

I don't think that is especially close though.

[Emperor Ming]

Eventually, its obvious they will be gone, from 40k anyway

 

The psychic awakening devastated a lot of chapters to the point of where they are majority primaris marines

 

Then you have everyone wanting/forced by gw to cross the Rubicon   

[Guest]

I would like a version of the basics ie Tactical but upscaled.

 

I don't care what you call them.

 

In another thread I think we agree that the Tactical squad is very iconic.

[Blindhamster]

5 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

I would like a version of the basics ie Tactical but upscaled.

 

I don't care what you call them.

 

In another thread I think we agree that the Tactical squad is very iconic.

Id like to see the tactical and intercessor squad combined. Essentially give intercessors all the tactical options, but keep bolt rifles. This would make a lot of sense as you could match the bolt rifle variant to your choice of special/heavy weapons.

Pure rules perspective, call them Tactical Intercessors (as opposed to Assault Intercessors) and you could use primaris or firstborn models to represent them.

 

Even better would be for a subsequent kit to be released which has a mix of mk2-mkX in it for the unit, but all scaled to roughly the same size, perhaps with mkX models being slightly taller.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Id like to see the tactical and intercessor squad combined. Essentially give intercessors all the tactical options, but keep bolt rifles. This would make a lot of sense as you could match the bolt rifle variant to your choice of special/heavy weapons.

Pure rules perspective, call them Tactical Intercessors (as opposed to Assault Intercessors) and you could use primaris or firstborn models to represent them.

 

Even better would be for a subsequent kit to be released which has a mix of mk2-mkX in it for the unit, but all scaled to roughly the same size, perhaps with mkX models being slightly taller.

 

That works for me :D.

[Tacitus]

On 12/21/2022 at 3:30 AM, The Eye of Damocles said:

Hi Everyone, I hope all is well in your sector of Space. 

I am new to this forum and I am asking the question again about firstborn marines becoming obsolete.

There were discussions about this when primaris marines were introduced but I am asking again owing to there being 10th edition and a new marine codex on the horizon.

 

For most chapters, potentially losing firstborn is not a problem. For Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Deathwatch I see it not only as a problem but a tradegy of the hobby for collectors of those factions. 

 

At least 50% of my deathwatch army is firstborn. They are better at melee with all of the options and I have modelled loads of them for my personal enjoyment. Marines, terminators, bikers and van vets. 

Deathwatch are struggling at the moment but I find having a mix of firstborn and primaris complements the Deathwatch nicely.

 

Do we think it's likely they will have rules discontinued? I want to keep up to current editions I have no real interest in playing older editions just so I can use certain models though.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

Eventually, yeah.  In 10th?  No.  And Deathwatch switching to Primaris in some ways have it easier than others due to their mixed Combat Squad abilities. Being able to take 5 Outriders/Eliminators/etc in a unit is better than only being able to take 3.  Taking 5 changes the calculus on if those units are good or meh I think. Deathwatch can make some otherwise lackluster Primaris units pretty good what with giving them ObSec etc which a tradeoff for some issues with Doctrines... but Yeah I kind of think eventually the first born will go away.  Maybe they got enough Marine army purchases by releasing a but of new stuff and they still have some new stuff they need, though. 

[phandaal]

8 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

I think, firstborn and primaris will slowly merge, primaris will start having more and more pre mkX components (as seen on things like the emperors champions), and it will eventually get to the point where its all primaris scale, the term primaris has gone and mkX is basically a new armour type and multiple armour types are seen across all units (probably at that point with some firstborn and primaris units being consolidated, and maybe some of both going the way of the dodo as well).

I don't think that is especially close though.

 

Once the Primaris keyword goes away, which should be soon, GW will be free to start merging a lot of things. Definitely looking forward to moving on.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The keyword Primaris is not going away. To make such a bold statement is just trolling imo. There is absolutely nothing factual to support the statement. The rumors I’ve heard are just that nothing offered to support it either. It’s ridiculous to make such a statement. Seriously when rumors are treated as fact there’s a big problem and it’s to the point now even questioning one you get so much pushback from the fanbois. It’s messed up.

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Captain Idaho]

Let's not over react. Nothing was said by anyone that constitutes trolling.

 

Whilst it might not be true, or may be true and we can have debates either way on the issue, it isn't some forbidden topic nor offensive to consider. 

 

Chill.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Okie dokie.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I'd personally like to see the keyword removed to clean the rules and datasheets up. Even better if they do so, and merge <Primaris Librarian> and <Librarian> for instance. So many duplicate datasheets that could go a long way to simplify the codex down. I'd also really like to put my Primaris in Rhinos, Land Raiders and Drop Pods, which I prefer over the Primaris vehicles, although I have some of both.

 

As for the actual topic, can GW make a bunch of money releasing some retro MK VII sculpts in 5-10 years? They're after money, so if we think of it that way, there's little likelihood Firstborn are going away. If they do decide to remove them, it certainly won't be happening in 10E while characters, chapter specific kits, etc. haven't been updated.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It doesn’t make any sense to remove the keyword… they are different and you’re asking geedub to go back on all the novels etc. written that feature Primaris Marines. As much as some didn’t like how they were introduced, it’d be even worse for whatever reason was given to eliminate them… it’s also hypocritical if you think about it. Merging units would more confusing than anything. If they get rid of the transport restrictions I think that’s something most everyone can get behind and won’t generate angst.
 

Edited February 17, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[WrathOfTheLion]

For me, the keyword is just a rule, I don't really care about it and I don't understand how it'd generate angst. If it doesn't serve real rules purposes, then who cares?

 

If we remove the transport restriction, then the only functional reason is for the strategems, which it should be also removed as relevant so they can cut those down, as there's way too many. The only difference between a Primaris Librarian and a Librarian, or a Primaris Chaplain and a Chaplain is basically one attack, which is a complete waste of everyone's time for those to be separate datasheets. I don't view it as 'scrubbing' the Primaris version, hell, I'd expect the Primaris model to be the image/example and they may even discontinue any real old Firstborn kits that aren't plastic, like the Techmarine for instance.

 

Things like the Phobos librarian are actually different, and could still warrant a separate datasheet.

 

That said, I'm not emotionally invested in all this, I really just care about cool models and trimming down a lot of the crap out of the Codex.

Edited February 17, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

For me, the keyword is just a rule, I don't really care about it and I don't understand how it'd generate angst. If it doesn't serve real rules purposes, then who cares?

 

If we remove the transport restriction, then the only functional reason is for the strategems, which it should be also removed as relevant so they can cut those down, as there's way too many. The only difference between a Primaris Librarian and a Librarian, or a Primaris Chaplain and a Chaplain is basically one attack, which is a complete waste of everyone's time for those to be separate datasheets. I don't view it as 'scrubbing' the Primaris version, hell, I'd expect the Primaris model to be the image/example and they may even discontinue any real old Firstborn kits that aren't plastic, like the Techmarine for instance.

 

Things like the Phobos librarian are actually different, and could still warrant a separate datasheet.

 

That said, I'm not emotionally invested in all this, I really just care about cool models and trimming down a lot of the crap out of the Codex.

This is how I feel about it. At this point I feel like the difference between a Primaris and a Firstborn is really not worth representing with drastically different rules on the tabletop, especially at 40K "battle" level. I find it amusing how apparently a few inches of in-universe height (if we go by the CSM as properly scaled Firstborn) apparently gives them Transhuman Physiology! Realistically I feel like the difference between the units should come down to equipment; if Firstborn and Primaris use the same datasheet, you could for example have a Chaplain with a power fist and rep it either with the old metal model or a conversion of one of the plastic Primaris ones. Likewise, people who want Hellblasters but don't care for Primaris can have squads of Tacticals armed solely with plasma guns, and Primaris fans who want more weapon diversity can run Intercessors as Tactical Squads complete with heavy/special weapons or whatever.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The thing is Primaris have established lore now - several years worth. It’s a thing. They aren’t first born. You’ve convinced me I just want to see first born sent to legends and the sooner the better as far as I’m concerned. Get rid of them and that is a lot trimming done.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I don't think they will.

 

If you'd asked me the same question 2 or more years ago I would have said it was a certainty. But considering how desperately hard they tried to sell Primaris in the lore, and how mixed the reaction has remained, it would shock me if GW went ahead with the replacement plan. It's a lot more likely now that the Primaris keyword is phased out and, even if they continue to exist in the lore, they ignore it as a rule. And really it's there own fault for how poorly this whole thing was managed.

 

If you add the success of 30K and their kits on top, it feels like Firstborn are here to stay. Money talks.

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

I'd personally like to see the keyword removed to clean the rules and datasheets up. Even better if they do so, and merge <Primaris Librarian> and <Librarian> for instance. So many duplicate datasheets that could go a long way to simplify the codex down. I'd also really like to put my Primaris in Rhinos, Land Raiders and Drop Pods, which I prefer over the Primaris vehicles, although I have some of both.

 

As for the actual topic, can GW make a bunch of money releasing some retro MK VII sculpts in 5-10 years? They're after money, so if we think of it that way, there's little likelihood Firstborn are going away. If they do decide to remove them, it certainly won't be happening in 10E while characters, chapter specific kits, etc. haven't been updated.

I don't see that happening.  They've been working pretty hard to keep modifications to the Datasheet statline by options to a minimum.  I don't think they want Add 1 to T for this, add 6" to movement for that.

[The Unseen]

On the tabletop there is 0 reason for a Primaris keyword to exist, it currently is only used to weirdly and haphazardly split the book into two for some stuff. The Primaris stuff gets all the best strat support, while a few firstborn units get actual weapon choices and good datasheets, and then you have the transport split which is even worse. Somehow growing 6" renders the Chapters vehicle garage totally unusable? If I was designing a new marine dex its the first thing I would throw out. The difference in lore is important, but its not enough to show up in stats or strats, the equipment is the biggest difference, and tbh the deus ex Cawl for improved Astartes equipment manufactured en masse sits poorly in the lore. Him coming up with new or modified designs that he can mass produce is already straining the limits of the setting to the breaking point, much less also making them superior to what even the Mechanicus commonly field.

 

The difference between a squad of hellblasters and a Dev squad loaded up with plasma cannons should be basically 0 on the table, just like having 5 different versions of sneaky troop-like units is wasted datasheet space when they should be weapon loadout choices, mechanically the only difference between Incursors, Infiltrators, and Reivers is a different equipment and the infiltrators special rule against deepstrike and what, 1 Reiver only strat? To say nothing of the weird split for HQs, at this point if a Primaris equivalent exists, its both cheaper AND superior to the other options. But not every option exists.

 

I see GW reducing the difference on the tabletop to effectively zero and begin combining some of the firstborn and primaris styled units that are directly analogous, probably keep the dumb primaris names for IP reasons, and then just slowly phase out firstborn units to legends. Stuff like Bikes and Land Speeders who have effectively a new kit that pretty much directly upscales and replaces the existing unit, but for now both exist. GW have really created a cluster:cuss: by releasing Primaris marine units that are *almost* a direct replacement, but aren't actually, to avoid pissing off people they've instead still done that and left them a big knot to untangle. How do you make Boltstorm Aggressors different *enough* on the table that they don't overlap with Tactical Terminators? Both have powerfists, a decent quantity of short ranged Str4 firepower, and are fairly slow but tough. The Aggressors get more bullets total, the terminators can pack a heavy weapon with some more substantial oomph than more bolt shots, the Terminators have 1 better pip of save, the Aggressors are 1 pip tougher. Basically its almost impossible to balance these 2 units where one isn't just a superior version than the other, because they are incredibly similar but not actually identical, and so they will always hover next to each other awkwardly. Its even worse when you look at their transport options, its almost comical how GW made Terminators that aren't Terminators in a Land Raider that isn't a Land Raider.

 

Or maybe GW has a stroke and released a Tactical Squad box with a Sergeant with all the weapon options, a Primaris special weapon sprue, and a Primaris Heavy weapon sprue, and congrats, you have the new basic troop unit for marines again.

[DesuVult]

Remember, GW wasn't care about precise balancing and has even less concern for internal balance.  As long as enough units are vaguely in the same ballpark that's good enough for them.  Both terminators and aggressors keep selling out.  For GW that is just 2 wins.

[Captain Idaho]

It's important to note, a keyword disappearing is not the same as a concept or theme disappearing. Consider it this way round - there's no need for a Firstborn keyword because they're Space Marines and covered in that keyword.

 

In a trimmed down and simpler game, we'll have no need for such keywords for multitudes of Strategums most likely.

 

***

 

Also, please keep the thread on topic. If you don't agree that's something you can post about in context of the topic. I've removed some posts that are off topic.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Marshal Reinhard]

Whatever the case will be im ready for it to be past tense already.

[Kallas]

12 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

The thing is Primaris have established lore now - several years worth. It’s a thing. They aren’t first born. You’ve convinced me I just want to see first born sent to legends and the sooner the better as far as I’m concerned. Get rid of them and that is a lot trimming done.

Nah, we should just can the Primaris, they're clearly a failed experiment. Besides, Firstborn have way more lore behind them, so that's reason enough, by your logic - Firstborn have decades of lore; Primaris have six years of crap stuffed in to try and shove Firstborn out of the way.

 

If we get rid of Primaris, then a lot of the bloat goes away immediately.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Primaris >> FB

 

Thats canon too. All the SM heroes wanna be Primaris too. They’ve got all the best McGuffins too. 

[Blindhamster]

31 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Nah, we should just can the Primaris, they're clearly a failed experiment. Besides, Firstborn have way more lore behind them, so that's reason enough, by your logic - Firstborn have decades of lore; Primaris have six years of crap stuffed in to try and shove Firstborn out of the way.

 

If we get rid of Primaris, then a lot of the bloat goes away immediately.

i generally agree with and understand the sentiment of hitting back at stupid statements like BBFs with equally stupid ones based on equal logic, so won’t comment on most of It.

 

but primaris aren’t “clearly a failed experiment” they’ve had successful (hugely so in many cases) sales and many players opt to use just primaris models. At most, they weren’t unanimously loved, but that’s true of firstborn too. They’ve for sure had some misses in terms of unit designs, but again, this true of firstborn. 
 

im intrigued to see how things go, I think we will actually lose units from both firstborn and primaris lines as part of a combining of the two types 

1 minute ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Primaris >> FB

 

Thats canon too. All the SM heroes wanna be Primaris too. They’ve got all the best McGuffins too. 

Just, stop

[Kallas]

2 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

but primaris aren’t “clearly a failed experiment” they’ve had successful (hugely so in many cases) sales and many players opt to use just primaris models. At most, they weren’t unanimously loved, but that’s true of firstborn too. They’ve for sure had some misses in terms of unit designs, but again, this true of firstborn. 

Yeah, it wasn't a serious post, it was poking back at the nonsense.

 

3 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

im intrigued to see how things go, I think we will actually lose units from both firstborn and primaris lines as part of a combining of the two types 

I doubt we will lose Primaris units, as they have fresh new moulds that need to be paid for/squeezed for more money.

 

I honestly think (and I've said this before) that combining the lines should be done. Tactical Intercessors, who can be equipped like Firstborn Tacticals (ie, Bolters, Specials and Heavies) or like Primaris Intercessors (ie, Bolt Rifles/variants and UGL) and fielded by whichever models the player wants to represent would be much better than what we currently have. To be less joking: people complain about datasheet bloat, but it is literally because Primaris introduced a heap of redundant sheets for no reason: why do we have 3 Primaris Lieutenant datasheets? Why do we have Hellblasters, and soon to be Desolators? To compare to Firstborn, that's one datasheet (Devastators) but folks like BBF want to can Firstborn to...cut down on bloat??

 

It's illogical and simply crap.