Do you think firstborn marines will be discontinued?

[Blindhamster]

Yeah I said similar about tactical intercessors, though I’d personally replace the current bolter stat block with the three bolt rifle variants as they’d actually synergies nicely with the tactical special/heavy options which would be cool

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m actually not all that opposed to firstborn but when phandaal makes an unsubstantiated claim it’s annoying as heck. Seriously I’ve talked with three employees and they all said Primaris aren’t going anywhere.

Edited February 17, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Blindhamster]

I’m assuming you mean someone more than regular store staff members? Having been one myself in the past, I can confirm we got told nothing, and nor did the managers

[Kallas]

1 minute ago, Blindhamster said:

Having been one myself in the past, I can confirm we got told nothing

Same.

 

And it also ignores the very real possibility that plans change. Hell, they may have planned to remove Firstborn and now aren't; maybe they didn't plan to remove them, and now they are. We don't know, but everyone has their own guesses.

 

Personally, I think they will can 40k Firstborn - we haven't seen a proper Firstborn release that wasn't Horus Heresy in ages, and (as I've pointed out before), Primaris are front and centre in every single Marine-focused image; the current Codex has only a handful of Firstborn images at all (excluding the Datasheet mugshots) and most of them are old artwork pieces - the only models we see are Primaris.

 

From a business perspective it's understandable, they want to recoup their investment and make a profit, but it's still extremely disappointing, especially when one considers that Firstborn were hardly bad sellers before Primaris came along. New weapons and vehicles would have been easy enough to bring in line with Firstborn without the whole Primaris introduction, and even armour updates and changes aren't impossible - the biggest problem is the method they took to perform these changes.

 

But getting off topic. I think Firstborn will get removed as an eventuality - I do think backlash (eg, WHFB->AoS, and the Primaris introduction) has slowed those plans, even with the successes the Primaris line has.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The codex is ready to go for some time now, they aren’t going to revise it. Regarding sources they are knowing.

[Captain Idaho]

16 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Yeah I said similar about tactical intercessors, though I’d personally replace the current bolter stat block with the three bolt rifle variants as they’d actually synergies nicely with the tactical special/heavy options which would be cool

 

Yeah I imagine having Assault Bolters with Flamer would be amazingly useful, or even better having some sniper bolters backing up my heavy bolter objective campers... 

 

I'd love that.

 

Though I imagine it's standard bolter with specials and heavies, then upgraded bolters if no options. Like an upgrade path almost. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

There's a few that do end up on the cover - both the SW and DA books have Terminators in their 9E cover art, and the SM codex has Land Speeders and a few other things in its cover art.

 

That said, store managers and employees aren't told anything. The closest we can get to them being told something, is that they're not allowed to take off in June, so we know the 10E launch is almost a given.

[Kallas]

Just now, WrathOfTheLion said:

There's a few that do end up on the cover - both the SW and DA books have Terminators in their 9E cover art, and the SM codex has Land Speeders and a few other things in its cover art.

I did say that most Firstborn are only depicted in artwork, most of which is old.

 

But generally speaking, even when they are featured, they are lurking behind masses of Primaris. Hell, look at the 9th Codex Cover Art - it's all Primaris in focus, then there's a Terminator Chaplain behind, and then blurry Land Speeders further back.

 

Contrast that with the back cover: it's all Primaris models. Not a single Firstborn in sight, literally, despite having more datasheets than Primaris.

[Tacitus]

9 hours ago, Kallas said:

Same.

 

And it also ignores the very real possibility that plans change. Hell, they may have planned to remove Firstborn and now aren't; maybe they didn't plan to remove them, and now they are. We don't know, but everyone has their own guesses.

 

I believe they were going to can first born.  I've been playing for years, the only time I bought new models was when a new unit came out, or even more rarely a new kit with a better look came out.   With SM being the cash cow that keeps the lights on, they had to generate more sales out if it is my guess.  So they were going to "advance the story" by replacing first born with Primaris.  

 

Then HH took off.  Now I suspect (most) firstborn kits will come from HH with dualpurpose Datasheets and transfers.  I think there's still models to release, and I suspect quite a few are even "ready to go" but won't because the marketing isn't there yet.  Jump Packers to release with Sanguinor-ius and the new Dante for example. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

On 2/17/2023 at 1:01 PM, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Primaris >> FB

 

Thats canon too. All the SM heroes wanna be Primaris too. They’ve got all the best McGuffins too. 

 

The problem with definitive terms like "all" is that I can annhilate your argument with a singular exception. 

 

Like, say, Gabriel Seth.

[Captain Idaho]

Indeed, Knights of Maccragge has a Primaris character who is busting chops and taking names, thinks of himself as superior to Firstborn...

 

...then he sees Prabian (a Company champion) in action and realises he is nothing in comparison to such a hero of the Chapter as he and Sicarius.

 

These were Firstborn. 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

"Were."

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

 

The problem with definitive terms like "all" is that I can annhilate your argument with a singular exception. 

 

Like, say, Gabriel Seth.

That’s a meme now, because he has since accepted them because they did indeed have traits of a true son of sanguinius (both flaws)

[Captain Idaho]

It wasn't about the acceptance. It was whether Seth is inferior to Primaris or not.

 

He's certainly not.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I meant collectively.

[Captain Idaho]

Remains to be proven, as Chaos fans might have something to say about that 

 

The background on Primaris is part of what turns folk off to be honest. It's a little deus ex machina to put it kindly and diplomatically.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The retcon to cancel culture it would be even worse. Yeah much worse.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Every topic that is first born versus Primaris invariably turns into the Primaris cancel culture crew party.

[Captain Idaho]

It's really not. No one has said that once in this thread, save a single time it being facetiously said in reply to something you said.

 

In fact, the first person to bring up cancelling anything in this thread was you, @BLACK BLŒ FLY and that was regarding Firstborn in response to an opinion of the removal of a keyword in a datasheet to make a Codex more coherent. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I take the removal of the keyword as just that. That is the most commmon perception. To be honest I don’t think these types of threads are healthy.

[Captain Idaho]

It's not a common perception, it's your perception. In fact, several people who have said about the keyword disappearing in this very thread are fans of Primaris.

 

Not only that, if GW removes the keyword "Primaris", keeps their rules and miniatures, this clearly wouldn't have anything to do with cancelling Primaris.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Seriously how can they be Primaris if they aren’t Primaris? 

 

Maybe it is too hard to discuss not in person. I am serious and not joking around.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Because they're Space Marines. The actual difference between Primaris and an actual marine is barely notable. For the same reason you can look at a Marine and Primaris and wonder why they both can't ride in a Land Raider, you can look at them and wonder why 2 extra organs gives +1 wound, +1 attack, and several strats that used to be given to both.

 

Initially GW wrote Primaris as the god like beings that were super better at everything because they were trying to convince people to buy them. Then they realized how ham fisted and stupid that was and have been back tracking ever since. If you compare the differences described in early Primaris lore to current Primaris lore it is wild how much they've backed off the differences. And the reason is, nobody wants lore that sells a new product by taking a dump on the old. It's lazy and disrespectful. It also makes it impossible to balance Chaos against Primaris, because the Firstborn have been fighting Chaos just fine for the past 10,000 years, and Primaris haven't changed that. 

 

So in short, there's nothing we can do about Cawl and the idiot who birthed that particular brain turd. Pulling a mass of storage unit marines and all new forms of equipment out of nowhere, creating stealth Dreadnought battlesuits that don't require a mostly dead pilot, etc. Those abortions of theme are here to stay.

 

But we can back off of throwing all the actual 40K that those stupid ideas are built upon out the window and mix them in with respect. At least until GW realizes that their current release plans has a time limit and there's nowhere to go once all the Primarchs  are back, and we have to hit the End Of Days button.

[Tacitus]

33 minutes ago, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

Because they're Space Marines. The actual difference between Primaris and an actual marine is barely notable. For the same reason you can look at a Marine and Primaris and wonder why they both can't ride in a Land Raider, you can look at them and wonder why 2 extra organs gives +1 wound, +1 attack, and several strats that used to be given to both.

 

Initially GW wrote Primaris as the god like beings that were super better at everything because they were trying to convince people to buy them. Then they realized how ham fisted and stupid that was and have been back tracking ever since. If you compare the differences described in early Primaris lore to current Primaris lore it is wild how much they've backed off the differences. And the reason is, nobody wants lore that sells a new product by taking a dump on the old. It's lazy and disrespectful. It also makes it impossible to balance Chaos against Primaris, because the Firstborn have been fighting Chaos just fine for the past 10,000 years, and Primaris haven't changed that. 

 

So in short, there's nothing we can do about Cawl and the idiot who birthed that particular brain turd. Pulling a mass of storage unit marines and all new forms of equipment out of nowhere, creating stealth Dreadnought battlesuits that don't require a mostly dead pilot, etc. Those abortions of theme are here to stay.

 

But we can back off of throwing all the actual 40K that those stupid ideas are built upon out the window and mix them in with respect. At least until GW realizes that their current release plans has a time limit and there's nowhere to go once all the Primarchs  are back, and we have to hit the End Of Days button.

The difference between Gravis/Terminator gives +1T and +1W - Extra Organs gives Firstborn an extra S, T, and W - Ive got no problem with extra extra organs gives other bonuses.   Comparatively Abbadon - the biggest Terminator this side of a Primarch - can ride in a Land Raider.  Even average sized Terminators can - but a power armored Primaris chapter master named Azrael cannot.  Nobody says the extra organs makes a primaris Mk X Chapter Master bigger than a Terminator.  In other words there's no fluff reason for the Land Raider countering logic there. 

 

Initial Primaris Fluff was always overblown and I expected some regression.  I don't think it was meant to "sell" us the models because more often than not that fluff ran counter to what the players would have wanted anyway - no Black Rage in BA?  BA players didn't want that.  No fangs for Wolves?  Pass.  I think that initial "marketing brochure" was more like the Starship Troopers movie where it was a tongue in cheek immersion commercial type thing along with a secondary purpose of buying them time to release some of the chapter specific stuff Primaris weren't supposed to be "vulnerable" to. 

 

I like what they did with the Warsuit.  Its specifically not a Dread, but Dreads have access to some sweet sweet loving that the Warsuit then doesn't get for lack of the keyword.   I thought it was a nice tightrope walk and showed the promise GW often fails to deliver. 

 

At the rate they're going its going to take a long time to get all the Primarchs back, and I suspect we get a new design paradigm where the Primarchs all go back into hiding, stasis etc. before we get them all anyway.   I'm pretty sure the whole Primaris thing was just to jumpstart Marine buyers into buying new stuff.  I suspect most marine players have been playing Marines the longest of their armies (they come in the Starter Sets) and have a full or nearly full collection (they come in the Starter Sets) so they, like me, only bought new kits when the unit was new, or the sculpt/options sprue was new and a drastic improvement over the old one.   Now suddenly we have a ton of new units with new options to buy. 

[Sir Clausel]

4 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Seriously how can they be Primaris if they aren’t Primaris? 

 

Maybe it is too hard to discuss not in person. I am serious and not joking around.

The rumor is that ONLY the keyword is being removed. All the lore and that stuff is not rumored to be removed. They will still be primaris. It will just remove the divide gamewise to some extend. 

Firstborn dont have a specific keyword and they are still Firstborn