Discussing Ark of Omens T. Pack and Deathwatch

[The Eye of Damocles]

Hello All

 

I am thinking that ark of omens won't really change things much for us List wise? We can already take plenty of Elite and heavy infantry in troops via killteams. What's left, spamming dreadnoughts?

    I imagine that some other factions are going to be unbearable with the amount of heavy and elite spam which is going to make it even harder for deathwatch. 

 

I'm starting a 40k league in Jan/Feb at my game club and I was going to use Deathwatch for fun but without much hope of victory, now I feel that there is next to zero hope of victory which makes me think I should play my Tyranids instead. 

 

Any ideas guys?

[Duke Danse Macabre]

We can still compete even at high levels but we have to think in terms of ablative wound units, rerolling 1’s on key unit choices,  use of our deep striking and our first born.

 

Due to vet unit choices they will be allot stronger especially if the free SS rumour holds true.

personally I wouldn’t worry too much and would look heavily at our strongest areas and where we have saved the most points once we know more.

[Lemondish]

The biggest changes here are that the Doctrine adjustment in the balance dataslate doesn't apply to us, the Aircraft adjustment kills the Corvus, and we no longer have access to the Kill Team Strike Force Army of Renown according to the content validity document.

 

I hope everyone still has their Veterans with Storm Shields, as I'm thinking those will likely be where we shift. The cost of a Veteran body went from 20 to 27 points, but all Wargear is free so every single one of them should be given an upgrade to make use of that. A Veteran with a Storm Shield and a Deathwatch combi-melta/plasma gets both pieces of Wargear for free now, not to mention all the heavy ordnance is free.

 

Primaris Kill Teams are just cheaper now, and there's likely decent play from a few Indomitor Kill Teams splitting off some obsec Plasma Inceptors. Can also do some silly stuff with an Infiltrator/Reiver combat squad setup that deploys Infiltrators forward and drops deep striking 16pt Obsec Reivers all over the place.

[Azaiel]

I´m not going to start re-arming my DW veterans, again. Going from stormbolters and Storm shields in 8th to the points and restrictions on special ammunition in 9th is not something I'm falling for again.

 

Nope, I´m sitting this one out since when 10th arrives in six months it will all change again. Hopefully the DW codex then is not among the first to be released and we can have a dose of powercreep.

[Lemondish]

22 minutes ago, Azaiel said:

I´m not going to start re-arming my DW veterans, again. Going from stormbolters and Storm shields in 8th to the points and restrictions on special ammunition in 9th is not something I'm falling for again.

 

Nope, I´m sitting this one out since when 10th arrives in six months it will all change again. Hopefully the DW codex then is not among the first to be released and we can have a dose of powercreep.

I'm thinking this is probably the approach I'll take. The big winners here are things I neglected to magnetize when I first built those units ages ago anyway.

 

I am looking at continuing my primaris Deathwatch projects, but I'm really kind of still disappointed in the way the kill teams are just extra steps to getting obsec on things rather than a mixture of specialists like they are for Firstborn.

 

An interesting option to break Mission Tactics is to bring allies, though. Like Knights.

[Brother Lame]

I'm feeling pretty vindicated in my previous decision to arm my Vets with combi weapons & chainswords and special weapons and storm shields, rather than going full cheapo with my builds. The bad news this has basically destroyed build diversity on one of the coolest, most versatile units in the game previously. Absolutely zero reason now to take anything other than combi-weapons and beefy melee weapons/storm shields or heavy weapons when you're paying a flat 27pts for any given Veteran loadout. Keeping them cheap and cheerful for objective playing is actively gimping yourself when the aforementioned Veteran loadouts cost the same as bolters and chainswords and the latter has zero benefits over even just combi-flamers and lightning claws (a 1 pt reduction from before I believe). Hell my previously sub-optimal squad loadouts are still sub-optimal because my chainswords could be power weapons or fists, and those special weapons full blown combi weapons.

 

I can't imagine any of this will stick honestly, this feels way too wacky and ill thought out to be anything other than a fleeting experiment that'll be put behind us in 10th edition when they try something else entirely.

[justicarius6]

For the highly customisable "your dudes" Deathwatch this update is very annoying. Sure, free items everywhere! But now I'd need to bloody well re-arm them all once again! When combi's and stormshields/powerfists/thunderhammers are free across the board why wouldn't you take them? (Answer: rule of cool).

 

P.S. I can see the cost of combi weapons shooting back up on eBay....

[angrom]

So I noticed something. Seems that the entry in the new pts document doesnt have an entry for the blackshield. Does that mean he is free now? That could explain why vets are now 27 pts 4 vets at 27 and a free black shield bring it back to 22 pta per model.

Do you think it is the case?

[Lemondish]

9 hours ago, angrom said:

So I noticed something. Seems that the entry in the new pts document doesnt have an entry for the blackshield. Does that mean he is free now? That could explain why vets are now 27 pts 4 vets at 27 and a free black shield bring it back to 22 pta per model.

Do you think it is the case?

No, because then the same would be true about Sergeants and the like, wouldn't it? 

[angrom]

I am not sure, the sergeant is mandatory model in the unit and always cost the same as the other models. Just usually have access to different options.

The black shield however is an addon model to the unit the same way the terminator the vanguard or the bike is to the unit. It has different stateline, wargear access and and also a separate pts cost. Seems that battlescribe just assigned him 25 pts as this was his cost before but technically we have no idea if the model has a cost or not and what it is.

 

I really would like to know as of he is free it changes the proteus kill team from really not worth to very tempting ro take now.

 

What is consensus on that and missing datasheets pts?

[Lemondish]

I still don't think a Blackshield would be free. I think it's the same price as everyone else in the unit. I don't think they had a separate points cost until 9th as well, and I don't recall them being free in 8th when they weren't listed. The MFM lists the unit and ppm value so it seems to me to be pretty clear, but I'm also interested in what the consensus is.

[Cleon]

Oh, I assumed free as in a free upgrade, so Sgt, 4 vets and a Blackshield costs the same as Sgt and 5 vets. Were people suggesting he was actually completely free?

[Lemondish]

16 hours ago, Cleon said:

Oh, I assumed free as in a free upgrade, so Sgt, 4 vets and a Blackshield costs the same as Sgt and 5 vets. Were people suggesting he was actually completely free?

That's the impression I got from angrom's original question, but I could be mistaken there.

[angrom]

16 hours ago, Cleon said:

Oh, I assumed free as in a free upgrade, so Sgt, 4 vets and a Blackshield costs the same as Sgt and 5 vets. Were people suggesting he was actually completely free?

Yes that is my impression.
Obviously this is discussed nowhere else so hard to find a consensus.

My arguments are the following:

1) we all noticed that the 27 pts per veteran seems silly. sure we can load all the biggest/most expensive wargear (except the thunder hammers) but I doubt this was GW intention as they tend to balance costs base don what is available in the box to equip.

When you equip 1 frag cannon, 1 inferno bolter, some melee equipment then you realize that based on the old cost of the equipment our vets cost exactly the same as before or worst are more expensives.

(all wargear being included in their cost instead of free like all space marines on top of losing AOC)

However when you consider a free black shield then the unit cost drops by about the same as other marine factions.

 

2) The black shield is different from the Sergent and the rest of the veterans as it is an add-on to the squad and has it's own point cost which was so far always mentioned separately in the codex and previous balance dataslate.

A good example is another mixed unit like black templars crusaders where there is a different entry for the neophytes and then when the rest cost the same they say "other models" here there is no ambiguity.

Since GW stated that anything that is not mentioned in dataslate is free and that unlike the veteran bikers, vanguards and deathwatch terminators have their costs mentioned elsewhere,the black shield has no entry anywhere which could indicate it's actual cost.

 

I really would like to confirm this but I don't think GW will care about us enough to bother FAQ or clarify this. however to me, for our faction this makes the difference between making the proteus really bad for the cost (especially compared to other chapter equivalents or gravis) to something balanced with the rest of the points changes and usable.

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by angrom