BA and the Balance Dataslate (Now live)

[Jolemai]

Any thoughts here folks? How do you see them unfolding for us?

 

tl;dr is no more AoC, points decrease on most vanilla stuff, sticky objectives, free upgrades on most vanilla stuff

Edited January 5, 2023 by Jolemai

[Cleon]

To be honest I'm not really putting any serious thought into the leaks as without knowing how the BA units are treated (where do you base point the Death Company with free wargear? Are they going to splat Sang guard as an over reaction?) there's not enough there to really work with.

 

On a wider note, I'm glad AoC has gone in principal, but I wish they'd replace it by doing a wider errata to downgrade a lot of weapons AP (and remove the Marine AP super doctrine) to make armour work better for everyone.

[Blindhamster]

I think we'll see BA drop significantly from our "top" place among space marines.

 

Sanguinary Guard will probably be spammed a bit less.

 

Bladeguard and Storm Shield terminators will make a (triumphant) return.

 

Probably going to see an increase in stuff like devastators now that they're rumoured to keep the extra AP all game too, and weapon options may be free?

 

Much like smash captain from BA was the main reason many players used BA before, Sanguinary guard have been for a while, I foresee a lot less BA in general in tournaments.

[Karhedron]

I normally run a mix of Plasmaceptors and Attack Bikes for fire support so my TAC list has gone down around 10% which is a decent unit to add.

 

I am probably not going to revise my list heavily in light of this as we know 10th is coming with a new Marine codex soonish. My guess is there are bigger changes ahead so the meta will probably be fairly short-lived.

[Jolemai]

 

This thread is what appears to be gaining traction. Points at the start, leaks a few posts below.

[Jolemai]

Wonder if we will get an FAQ for the Predator/Land Raider changes too? Or will they just wait for the next vanilla Codex when they unleash the new Primaris range (and maybe roll in the 30k stuff too?).

 

Looking like my Firstborn will survive another edition at least 

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, Jolemai said:

Wonder if we will get an FAQ for the Predator/Land Raider changes too? Or will they just wait for the next vanilla Codex when they unleash the new Primaris range (and maybe roll in the 30k stuff too?)

 

Given how long Chaos had to wait for their second wound, my guess is that we will need to wait for the new vanilla codex to pick up the buffed vehicles but I would be happy to be proven wrong. I am also hoping that the 30K vehicles get rolled in as a I rather fancy a Spartan, especially since the new AoO detachment makes it much easier to roll in LOWs.

[Jolemai]

 

Balance dataslate and points drops have gone live.

[Morticon]

DC got more expensive base, but with all the free gear look golden. 

Sang Guard with full melta is going to be first on the next emergency nerf list imo (or they will go Legends) and this is their last sales!

 

DC Intercessors with a hammer and a grenade launcher at 35points cheaper than they are now is glorious.   Maybe worth playing. 

 

Attack bikes also look too good to be true and are likely going to shift to legends because of it :( 

[Jolemai]

You reckon a lot of stuff is on it's last hurrah then?

[Karhedron]

If they squat Attack Bikes I will just run mine as ATVs. I can't see SG going to Legends though as they are one of the newer plastic kits, they are a key unit for Blood Angels identity and there is no Primaris equivalent. 

 

My Plasma Inceptors are very happy with this change and my Devastators might get a bit more mileage now. I see lots of Grav Cannons in my future. My Assault squads with full melta from 7th will be visiting the armoury to get their Jump Packs fitted asap. 90 Points for an Assault squad with 2 melta guns and PF + Inferno Pistol on the Serg? Yes please! 

 

Having said that, I don't plan on massively changing anything on the basis of this slate. 10th is likely coming out in the summer with a new Codex so enjoy stuff for as long as it lasts but don't count on anything being permanent.

[Morticon]

13 minutes ago, Jolemai said:

You reckon a lot of stuff is on it's last hurrah then?

Absolutely. 

We just lost two of our strongest secondaries after being spoiled for all of Nephilim. 

Now we only get the option of Relentless Assault :(

[Jolemai]

Where have you seen that?

[Xenith]

19 minutes ago, Morticon said:

Attack bikes also look too good to be true and are likely going to shift to legends because of it :( 

 

Weren't they at 50pts, then bumped to 60 with the first manual? A lot of this is just reverting back to a time before they started nerfing things to keep the new 9th codexes in line with older 8th ed codexes. 

 

I think a lot of this in insane, and we'll see some severaly broken lists for the end of 9th, before a great reset. Great move from GW. 

 

I pointed out elsewhere, my ABR intercessor squad with thunderhammer has dropped from 120 to 90points. The thunderhammer alone was 20 I think, now free. That's a 25% drop.  Terminators at 33ppm is mad, especially as storm shields are back on the menu now AoC is dead. You can take 30 THSS terms for 990pts. 

 

Another big winner for me is outriders. These might just be new stars of the show. They were 45pts, deemed broken, then bumped to 50, and not used, now they're 35 pts for a 14" move, T5, 4W model with 6A on the charge. That's a better profile than most elite characters that cost 70+ points. 

 

Essentially free wargear on captains is awesome - 110pts for a captain with jump pack, relic blade and storm shield might be a winner. Likewise a TH/SS TDA captain for 105pts. 

 

Free power weapons on vanguard vets is great. It's now kind of laughable that a vanguard vet with power weapon is 20pts and a howling banshee is 19. You gain +1S, T, W, Sv, for a point at the cost of 1A -1 to hit and advance and charge/no overwatch. 

 

Eviscerators in Assault squads are now free, so 90pts gets you 5 deepstrike dudes, 2 meltas, inferno pistol, power fist and eviscerator. 

 

For BA specific units, not much to write home about. Mephiston at 125 would make me want to try him out. Dante is still a lot at 165, with his main benefit being essentially free CP.

[Morticon]

---> 

 

 

[Karhedron]

48 minutes ago, Xenith said:

Another big winner for me is outriders. These might just be new stars of the show. They were 45pts, deemed broken, then bumped to 50, and not used, now they're 35 pts for a 14" move, T5, 4W model with 6A on the charge. That's a better profile than most elite characters that cost 70+ points. 

 

And the Ap-1 on their chainswords is more relevant again now that AoC has gone away.

[Jolemai]

Their bolters too.

 

I wonder if Martial Legacy has gone given the metawatch video said they wanted CP to simply power stratagems?

 

 

[The Unseen]

My thoughts are that Blood Angels will go back to bottom-mid bracket for marines. We're still gonna be better than IF, but IH, Deathwatch, DA, and Wolves are going to be far superior. And maybe WS. But we lost AoC, we lost all our unique secondaries except Relentless Assault (And Behind Enemy Lines got buffed to be much closer as well), SG don't care about free wargear, free Inferno pistols are cute and all, but good luck getting all of them into range, and Angelus Bolters are actually a solid gun; and Thammer DC got slightly cheaper, the hammers aren't free they just cost 10 instead of 15. Power Sword and Inferno/Plasma pistol squads got notably cheaper though since those are now free, and might be the pivot. (DC themselves went up 2 ppm, but if you were taking any upgrades at all they're cheaper, and theres no reason to ever run chainsword DC pretty much)

 

Remember, any generic marine unit that isn't balls to the walls melee will always do better in other chapters, since we have basically 0 relevant buffs to generic units. The sole exception being plasma Inceptors, which do look pretty good with hitting on 2's the turn they drop in. But other chapters are now getting to their super doctrines and then NOT leaving all game. We are still stuck waiting till turn 3 for ours. Terminators, some vehicles, and troops all got the biggest pts drops, and those units are better in other chapters. DA alone can now put 40+ perma-transhuman obsec terminators on the table, with maxed out firepower and mixed squads of shields and guns. Deathwatch can get several hundred points of free special weapons, Wolves can take wolf-guard terminators with free combi-weapons everywhere and thunderwolves just got cheap and nasty, etc.

 

I for one am not going to go crazy on ripping apart models and/or trying to repaint weapons only for 10th to come out in 6 months and completely change everything again, I'm just gonna play Killteam and Heresy while GW throws free wargear all over the place without actually balancing anything.

[Rhavien]

I'm also a bit miffed about the combat doctrine change. If they want to make marines better in general, then why leaving out the chapters that have a melee super doctrine? Do they count our +1 attack and scars/wolves doctrine that high? 

This free war gear also seems really weird but especially for firstborne. They just have so darn many options and combinations. 

 

But after the initial irritation I'm looking forward to play some games with those new points. The point drops for most vehicles look juicy. I mean I just played a gladiator valiant at 200p a couple of times, so why not for 170p with all the upgrades I can sprinkle in. Just in my last match I wished those auto launches wouldn't cost any points. 

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Rhavien said:

I'm also a bit miffed about the combat doctrine change. If they want to make marines better in general, then why leaving out the chapters that have a melee super doctrine? Do they count our +1 attack and scars/wolves doctrine that high?

 

BAs and Wolves were the highest scoring Chapters for the last 6 months apparently (48% and 45% respectively). Mind you, BAs were largely successful on account of Sanguinary Guard and AoC.

[Jolemai]

Had possibly my last Nephillim game tonight and I'm really going to miss AoC  

It literally keeps me in games this edition.

[Jolemai]

Goonhammer Reviews are up:

 

Overview -> Chapter Approved: Arks of Omen – The Goonhammer Review | Goonhammer

Marines -> Chapter Approved: Arks of Omen Review – Space Marines | Goonhammer

 

Interesting tl;dr for what we're seen so far. Possibility of seeing some more variations in out play (so whilst some lists will remain ABC, some will build for Oaths once more, some hybrid styles, etc)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Pretty sure my plasmaceptors will see some more action now.

[The Unseen]

On 1/8/2023 at 5:55 PM, Jolemai said:

Had possibly my last Nephillim game tonight and I'm really going to miss AoC  

It literally keeps me in games this edition.

 

I kept a running total of how many wounds I saved where AoC mattered in a recent game vs HoD eldar. For the record, I won that game by tabling the opponent turn 4 because he was limit testing and just tried to alpha strike me off the board with shruiken shots when he went first. It almost worked, but my counterpunch and some key consolidation tags meant that I could muscle him off the table over turns 2 and 3. At the end I had 2 characters, 6 assault marines, and 3 DC out of an all infantry save a whirlwind jump list. Without AoC, I would've been tabled on turn 2, rather than being able to throw punches with depleted units, other than my characters who were hiding and the assaults who came down turn 3. Non-tuned marine lists that aren't taking maximum advantage of the pts drops and wargear changes are I think worse off than before the update, and I think BA is substantially worse overall.

And I'm not going to try and 3d print 30+ inferno pistols to run a tuned BA list. Cause that might be good enough, since now every SG, VV, and DC model can have a melta pistol, for free. But it won't last through 10th, and it doesn't look like it'll be fun either.

[Rhavien]

It seems Cawl's manufactorii (manufactorums?) churned out some serious amount of special wargear. No more shortage for hammers, fists plasma and inferno pistols at all! Except of course you are member of the honored Vanguard veterans of your chapter somehow. I find it kind of funny to think about such stuff from an in universe perspective from time to time. 

Regarding the tabletop I also won't change anything for now. Sure, if I have a fully kitted out model availible I'll take it instead of a barebones one. But I'll try not to break Wysiwyg.

If the 10th edition codex will somehow keep this formula for free wargear I'll open my bitzbox and adopt as much as I can. 

If they keep it free then I really hope they balance the options against each other. But this would just generate more strange situations. How deadly needs a flamer to get against infantry to balance its cost against a melter? How many shots for a stormcanon to make it worthile against a multimeter? Thinking about it there is no way it stays as it is now.