Balance Dataslate and Munitorum Field Manual changes

[TrawlingCleaner]

Balance Dataslate

Munitorum Field Manual

 

Changes to the Balance Dataslate:

Armour of Contempt is gone for all Power Armoured armies

Creations of Bile's fight on death now only happens on a 4+ per model

 

Points changes:

Abaddon: +50

Chaos Lord: -10 points on TH and free upgrades

Warpsmith: - 10 points on TH

Legionnaires: All upgrades are free except the Balefire Tome which is still 20pts

Terminators: +3 points

Helbrute: -10 points on twin las and all other upgrades are free

Predators: -30 points on Las sponsors, all other upgrades are free

Defilers: +10 points and free upgrades

Vindicators: Free upgrades including Siege shield

All standard SM Vehicles: Free upgrades, including combi weapons and Havoc Launchers

Mark of Slaanesh: +5 points

 

Terminators, Abaddon and MoS taking a hit is not really a surprise, free upgrades on Legionnaires and vehicles is actually very handy!

 

How does this change your lists?

Any improved picks you might try out?

Edited January 5, 2023 by TrawlingCleaner

[WrathOfTheLion]

I was eying some predators before now, I think this might be the excuse to grab one or two.

[Kaiju Soze]

Doesn't really change much on the list I was using which, at 1250pts has saved about 40pts on existing upgrades, so basically enough to put an 8 model Khorne Legionary squad back up to 10 models.  Although cheaper Helbrutes might be worth trying out.

[Relic]

My very initial thought is that taking a near company of Legionaries could be fun - free upgrades on them bar the marks and Balefire tomb is interesting. Admittedly other armies like Death Guard have had this for a while and haven't set the world on fire, so I doubt it is good as it looks. But Legionaries can take a lot of toys..

[Verbal Underbelly]

Free heavy flamers on my helbrute's double fist action??? I'll take that. Free upgrades on the squads is most welcome. I don't have to sacrifice weapons options at smaller point games sizes now. Pretty happy. 

 

Am I right in thinking that icons on legionary squads are now free as well?

Edited January 5, 2023 by Verbal Underbelly

[Malakithe]

Time to spam some Legionaries. Bile is still great. Now...Hellbrute vs Venomcrawler debate time.

[Kaiju Soze]

8 minutes ago, Verbal Underbelly said:

Am I right in thinking that icons on legionary squads are now free as well?

Looks like it, since they're listed on other units (like Chosen).

[Prot]

My gut reaction is the win rate of Chaos competitively is going down substantially. The top stuff was largely Bile which got hit and MoS. 

 

I said this before but I really wish Abaddon would go back to his old rules (I mean precodex) and old points. He was just as good, no one played him, and now he's in every list and the price shall be paid. (along with termies).

 

So I didn't use Abe and Termies in my lists a lot, but I just wouldn't now. Way too many points, and it's layered hit with the loss of AoC.

 

Legionaries getting free upgrades is cool, but the loss of needing any/many troops with the new detachment probably has me down to 1 squad to legally take a squad of Cultists.

 

Less MoS I guess?  

My Predators will probably feature sponson Lascannons now more often (they were always the first thing cut in the lists).

My Helbrutes will potentially have Lascannons (although I doubt it just because of how rare Melta is for chaos)

In my Iron Warrior Legionaries I took heavy choices all the time, now that being free is interesting and might absorb my IW termie cost bump.

I don't take Rhino's since the Landraider became playable, but I do have some with old Havoc launchers I'll definitely use.

Unfortunately still no use for a Defiler... I can hardly fit it on our tables, but I'd like to try one just for old times' sake.

 

IW will be interesting. I can't tell you how much I enjoyed telling people they couldn't reroll to wound. It came up far more often than I thought. Losing that will definitely hurt.

18 minutes ago, Kaiju Soze said:

Looks like it, since they're listed on other units (like Chosen).

 

I had to re-read that. Yea, good catch... free Icons for Legionaries!

 

Maybe this is my own wishlisting, but I really really thought Chosen would get some form of reduction considering Termies. Even if just their overpriced Combi weapons (I still don't understand this). Really a let down there.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Prot

[Galron]

No real changes to my main IW army. The terminator upcharge is pretty much covered by the free crap on everything else. Oh yay. No drastic change like it is for my loyalist marine lists which all get a mass of free stuff. My Howling Griffens effectively went down 200+ points so great, possibly two more quartered units I need to paint, thanks GW.

 

Still looking forward to my AoO IW Bombardment list, I get a buttload of upgrades :)

Edited January 5, 2023 by Galron

[Verbal Underbelly]

Just looked at my 1000 point EC list - the bumping up of MoS mostly kills any benefits of the free wargear. I'm about 30 points better off - it does kind of encourage me to just go all in with larger squads with more upgrade though. Taking more vehicles with more upgrades seems really attractive too. 

It does seem to signal the end of the edition where free upgrades are added somewhat liberally.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Verbal Underbelly

[Relic]

Not personally a big fan of free points as a design thing, game does not need more models/bigger armies. 

 

Also - No amour of contempt, our Terminators go up, whilst Space Marines go significantly down..

[WrathOfTheLion]

4 minutes ago, Relic said:

Not personally a big fan of free points as a design thing, game does not need more models/bigger armies. 

 

Also - No amour of contempt, our Terminators go up, whilst Space Marines go significantly down..

Yeah, a bit bizarre that the SM ones would get so much gear for free, ours are a higher base cost and still have to pay for wargear on top of that. I'll probably still run them, I think most of my lists will have some extra points laying around now. I think just the free stuff on the Legionaries will well cover the added tax from the termies in my lists.

 

2 hours ago, Prot said:

I said this before but I really wish Abaddon would go back to his old rules (I mean precodex) and old points. He was just as good, no one played him, and now he's in every list and the price shall be paid. (along with termies).

 

So I didn't use Abe and Termies in my lists a lot, but I just wouldn't now. Way too many points, and it's layered hit with the loss of AoC.

I used Abaddon in my first game with Black Legion with this Codex, but when I went down to 1500 points, I just couldn't justify him even at 300. Dropping him and bringing in the Lord Discordant instead was a good choice then, and will definitely stay so now. Maybe swap out the disco lord with a Daemon Prince, depending on the day.

[Tallarn Commander]

Wow! Since I'm a casual player who likes to use Legionaries, Helbrutes, Defilers, and Predators my lists got a huge point drop. My 2000 point  Night Lords and World Eaters lists just got between 170 and 200 points cheaper. Huzzah! 

 

I don't use Termies that much this edition so the points hike for them doesn't affect me. And I've never used Abbie so his increase is no big deal to me.

 

Even my Blood Slaughterers went down. It's like GW realized I lose most of my games and gave me these points drops because they felt bad for me. :)

Edited January 5, 2023 by Tallarn Commander

[Toldavf]

The terminator nerf kills them, they are more expensive than a grey knight termy which is just plain dumb. these nerfs +AOC loss should see us drop to the floor on win rate. 

[dice4thedicegod]

Yeah, the “year of chaos” is over…

[Toldavf]

21 minutes ago, dice4thedicegod said:

Yeah, the “year of chaos” is over…

Not in the balance team office it isn't. 

[TrawlingCleaner]

I think Chosen and Bikes are both good replacments for those feeling the pinch on Terminators.

Chosen are a full 11 points cheaper, are faster, free powerfists and have more transport options. The downside of course is they don't have a 2+ save or Invuln and have 2 less shots. It's swings and roundabouts, for sure, but taking 15 Chosen for the price of 10 Terminators is definitely tempting.

Bikes are also a good shout in my opinion, what they lose in the form of Accursed weapons they gain in speed and an extra pip of Toughness (if I remember correctly T5 3+ save is statistically tougher than T4 2+ save)

 

It'll be very interesting to  see the differences this brings to people's lists!

[Relic]

I love my Chosen, but comparing them to Legionaries now - a Mark of Khorne 10 man Legionaries with Chainswords, Icon, Powerfist, Heavy Chainaxe, Meltagun, Reaper Chaincannon/whatever special/heavy weapon you like is 195pts vs a Chosen squad that is 270pts for a similar setup. Those 75pts nearly get you a Rhino (with Free Havoc Launcher/Combi Melta now..). 

 

The extra wound, strength and +2 AP on the Chosen could be worth the extra points, but my gut says Legionaries as they also have obsec. 

 

[techsoldaten]

22 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

I was eying some predators before now, I think this might be the excuse to grab one or two.

Laspreds are a good option.

 

My main list includes Abaddon and 3 laspreds. The points changes make this combo cheaper than before. 

[Plague _Lord]

I'm glad I went down the chosen rabbithole as they look to be much better than termies in an IW army. Allthough no wound rerolls was pretty great, having pseudo AOC should let them slug it out against other elites pretty good.

 

Legionaries do look tasty, though rhinos are still so overosted I don't see myself using them much.

[Prot]

On 1/5/2023 at 3:08 PM, Toldavf said:

The terminator nerf kills them, they are more expensive than a grey knight termy which is just plain dumb. these nerfs +AOC loss should see us drop to the floor on win rate. 

 

I don't want to be a doomsayer, and maybe the 'floor' isn't where I'd put them..... there's always Imperial Fists for that! However, it's pretty bleak looking.

 

I'd like to see how it plays out, but last night my Word Bearers friend and I had a game, and I switched to my White Scars to do an experiment. Keep in mind White Scars rank extremely low competitively (I'm talking down there with Ultra's, and Imperial Fists). 

 

What I do with White Scars is take a lot of iconic (IE: crappy ) units. So they went down in cost a lot.

 

Long story short, he paid new points, and so did I, using the new detachment. He got hammered. I had about 280 points extra in my list, he got his lassponsons, a kitted out squad of Legionaires and his 10 Man termie brick shot up notably.

 

I almost tabled him BUT I will say we both disappeared. It literally felt like... I'm going to expose one unit, and try to kill you with it, then I disappear. His turn was the same thing, something would poke out a corner and then disappear. 

 

Only 2 units managed to be truly hard to shift: His Termies, and my Bladeguard Vets.  I guess we both got used to AoC. I think after a turn he was shocked how much he lost, then his response I'd feel the same. (I lost 3 ATV's with MM's, 2 Outriders, a Thunderstrike speeder, and troops... wow)

 

I honestly think whoever went first had the advantage. We do play with a lot ruins. (6 in total, 4 have a large footprint).

 

I think Bile, and Abaddon collectively saw a ton of play in tournaments. They are both effectively hit very hard. I don't understand why GW hit Chaos with a multilayered bat. I think combined with the loss of AoC, it's too much. 

[Karhedron]

The irony is that Chaos had a winrate of 51% according to the last Metawatch which is almost exactly where GW apparently want it. Now the problem is that Chaos seemed to lean on a few power builds like Bile + Warptalons and Black Rune Terminators. However it was largely these builds holding up the winrate. Nerfing those and removing AoC will definitely see CSM slumping. I appreciate that automatic choices are bad for variety but if the winrate is about where it should be then other options need buffing up to the same level.

[Tokugawa]

Quite a bit CSM wins/advantages came form brainless broken allied Tzeentch flamers. CSM themselves shouldn't be the thing nerfed hard.

[Prot]

7 hours ago, Karhedron said:

The irony is that Chaos had a winrate of 51% according to the last Metawatch which is almost exactly where GW apparently want it. Now the problem is that Chaos seemed to lean on a few power builds like Bile + Warptalons and Black Rune Terminators. However it was largely these builds holding up the winrate. Nerfing those and removing AoC will definitely see CSM slumping. I appreciate that automatic choices are bad for variety but if the winrate is about where it should be then other options need buffing up to the same level.

I actually didn’t know the win percentage.  That’s very interesting.  Amazing they would make such impactful changes on a faction in target range yet tread so lightly with Nids and Voltann. 

3 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Quite a bit CSM wins/advantages came form brainless broken allied Tzeentch flamers. CSM themselves shouldn't be the thing nerfed hard.

This I did know. I didn’t mention it because I honestly never used them, but hire right a lot of top Chaos armies had them in the list. 

part of me is shocked how hard GW came down on chaos but after all this time, I expected it. 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

5 hours ago, Prot said:

I actually didn’t know the win percentage.  That’s very interesting.  Amazing they would make such impactful changes on a faction in target range yet tread so lightly with Nids and Voltann. 

This I did know. I didn’t mention it because I honestly never used them, but hire right a lot of top Chaos armies had them in the list. 

part of me is shocked how hard GW came down on chaos but after all this time, I expected it. 

These changes are baffling but shouldnt really surprise anyone given how things have gone for CSM in the past.  These last 6 months have been the exception not the norm.