New Points and doctrine changes

[Galron]

Wow, I dont know about you guys but most of my marine lists just went down about 200-250 points. How did you guys fare?

Tac marines are back on the menu as being useful, maybe more so than intercessors if you like using troops.

The doctrine thing is great, especially for Iron Hands and Salamanders.

Yeah we lost AoC but we get a heck of a lot more bodies unless you were running a ton of vanguard vets and assault terminators. 

[macradam_hue]

Am I reading it right with regards to upgrades, for example both flavours of Aggressors now the same price?

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Unfortunately, yes. They pretty much made all wargear free.

[Casual Heresy]

My dual Kratos and Guilliman list has dropped to 1800pts. My current thinking is to shore up the list's weakness with speed and numbers by adding two five man assault squads for objective grabbing plus ten points to swap the melta cannon Kratos' combi-melta for a multi melta.

[Karhedron]

Generally very welcome, particularly with AoC going away. Sticky ObjSec looks nice and could easily justify 1 or 2 fast cheap units for zooming around and trying to "tag" as many Objectives as possible in the late game. Fully loaded Assault squads are looking promising here.

 

The Repulsor got a massive points drop to the point where it might actually be worth fielding. 225 points for all those guns is actually pretty decent and the Transport capacity is just a bonus.

 

Weirdly, Reivers at 16ppm might actually be worthwhile. They are the cheapest Primaris body in the army and get free Deep Strike, 3 Attacks and a special gun. Get a squad and drop them on an Objective T3. Eve if the enemy kills them, they will have to actually walk over there and tag the Objective to stop them scoring until the end of the game.

 

I think the tail end of 9th is going to see some strange shenanigans.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I find it hard to believe some are upset we got points reduction. SM were way overcosted before. Compare an Impulsor to a Killrig… it was just insane. We have plenty of great units as well. I guess some people will never be happy.

[Lemondish]

The only real issue I have is with the Deathwatch changes. Losing the AoR was always going to be a big hit, but missing out on the Doctrine changes hurts as well.

 

Veteran bodies going up is unfortunate, especially with the loss of the Kill Team Strike Force and AoC, but it does mean highly tooled vets are back on the menu. Combi-melta and storm shield Vets seem likely to take centre stage.

 

The unfortunate reality that primaris Kill Teams are just extra steps towards making some non-Troops units obsec remains, only now with cheaper Reivers, Aggressors, and Plasma Inceptors.

[Cruor Vault]

20 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Generally very welcome, particularly with AoC going away. Sticky ObjSec looks nice and could easily justify 1 or 2 fast cheap units for zooming around and trying to "tag" as many Objectives as possible in the late game. Fully loaded Assault squads are looking promising here.

 

Weirdly, Reivers at 16ppm might actually be worthwhile. They are the cheapest Primaris body in the army and get free Deep Strike, 3 Attacks and a special gun. Get a squad and drop them on an Objective T3. Eve if the enemy kills them, they will have to actually walk over there and tag the Objective to stop them scoring until the end of the game.

 

Sticky OBJ is only for troops.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Is still really good… especially for Primaris Crusader Squads !!

[Lemondish]

22 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Is still really good… especially for Primaris Crusader Squads !!

Indeed. Or for Deathwatch Kill Teams. Can bring some Indomitor teams with obsec Plasma Inceptors and cheaper Heavy Intercessors, for example. Or the big bolt spewing units with Aggressors.

 

With troops also playing a role in giving you more CP, that might be useful.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm actually glad AoC has gone. AP-1 weapons are worthwhile again in an allcomers list, bringing Tactical Doctrine back in relevance, which is also good now I can sit in it.

 

Being able to hold onto Devastator Doctrine an extra turn helps so many support units too.

 

I'm happy with those changes.

[Tokugawa]

Staying on dev doctrine all the game will make IH very happy.

[Lemondish]

4 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Staying on dev doctrine all the game will make IH very happy.

They're very likely to surge ahead in representation. They were already one of the more competitive options among Codex Marines, specifically as successors, and this will just improve that list approach tremendously.

 

Which begs the question as to whether IF will gain a similar boost by association. More Marine armies playing with more vehicles means more targets for Legacy of Dorn, which can now apply across the entire match if you desire...

[firestorm40k]

I'm currently building a 500 point Boarding Actions all Primaris force, with two Lieutenants - one just with Power Sword, the other with Storm Shield, Sword, and Vulkite. Previously there was about 15 points difference between the two, but now they're the same - have I got that correct? 

 

That seems pretty wild to me if it is - the Shield Lieutenant should be more durable than the other one, so I'd have thought the different points would make sense 

 

Anyway, with these changes, my planned force is now 95 points cheaper - I can squeeze in some Agressors now 

[Lord_Ikka]

My fun, teaching-40k Primaris Ultras list went down 265 points, which gives a bunch of options. Right now I'm looking at adding in another 3 Eradicators, 3 Aggressors, and upgrading all my Assault Intercessors to Veterans. I'll also drop a single Bladeguard to grab a shield LT, and then switch out a Firestrike turret for an Impulsor depending on the game. Quite a big change and I'm intrigued to see what the better SM players will do in competition. 

[Casual Heresy]

Only just realised how much these changes benefit my Black Templars lists.

 

Points wise, the dual Redemptor and Volkite Contemptor version of my list has dropped to 1754pts, which I'm immediately tempted to fill with a ten man Assault Intercessor Squad with fist of Balthus and an apothecary. My original list though drops even further to just over 1600pts. That version would benefit from adding some dreadnoughts as most of its long range firepower is multi-meltas and whatever Helbrecht gets launched at.

 

Biggest thing though is sticky objectives on Troops. I currently use 3 primaris crusader squads, two of which have rifles to keep a hold of my home objective and give fire support to the choppy things. Being able to grab and go means I can play much more aggressively with everything. My Dreadnoughts and their Techmarine babysitter have always been enough to handle the backfield. Now I feel much better about advancing all my troops forward to better contest the mid-field.

[Fenriwolf]

Having a super doctrine back feels nice as IF. 

 

I'm currently looking at stuff like sternguard, bikes and the return of the obvious inceptors...Lots of legacy of dorn worthy firepower that can be pumped out for cheap when you start throwing plasmas and meltas everywhere

[Karhedron]

Blood Angels definitely got hit by these changes. The main competitive build at the moment was focussed around Sanguinary Guard so the loss of Armour of Contempt makes them a lot more fragile. Allowing Marines to remain in the Devastator doctrine does not directly weaken those like BAs who need to wait for the Assault Doctrine to kick in but it does shift the relative balance of power. It is not the end of the world as the Sanguinary Priest's Chalice does allow us to kick units into the Assault Doctrine early.

 

On the plus side, a lot of mobile fire support options like Plasmaceptors and MM Attack Bikes got a lot cheaper. My 1500 point TAC list has gone down by nearly 250 points. That is a free Land Raider (or a big chunk of Death Company).

[Malakithe]

Can someone explain the changes to the doctrines?

[Karhedron]

24 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Can someone explain the changes to the doctrines?

 

Marine armies can now choose to remain in the Devastator or Tactical Doctrines all game if they want. This is quite a boost to Chapters like Iron Hands and Dark Angels but provides no benefit for melee orientated Chapters who still have to wait for T3 for their super-doctrine ability to kick in..

[Galron]

27 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Can someone explain the changes to the doctrines?

If you are in the doctrine you prefer then you now have the option to stay there instead of being forced to change it to the next one like we were before. Iron Hands and Imperial Fists can stay in Devastator doctrine so they keep their super doctrine all game. Turn two Everyone can switch to Tactical Doctrine and chapters like Salamanders and Ultramarines can stay there. Turn 3 if you are in Tactical then you can drop to Assault for those benefits for chapters like BA who benefit from it.

[Minsc]

Went trough the update and compared them to the current (old) costs and... (wall of text incoming.)

TLDR: Most Primaris units went down in cost to compensate loss for AoC while Firstborn units are all over the place, some even becoming more expensive without AoC (certain Centurion-loadouts), with some kits costing waaay less (Sternguard stacked with melta-weaponry.)

---HQ---

*Captain; No change. Free Wargear except TH is cheaper and JP is still +25.

*TA Captain; No change. Free Wargear except TH which is cheaper.
(Example: TA Captain /w TH, SS went from 120 to 105 pts.)

*Captain on Bike: No change. Free Wargear except TH which is cheaper.

*Phobos Captain: -10 pts

*Gravis Captain: -10 pts

*Captain /w MCHBR: -10 pts

*Chaplain: -10 pts. Free Wargear except JP.

*TA Chaplain: -10 pts.

*Librarian: -10 pts. Free Wargear except JP.

*Phobos Librarian: -10 pts.

*TA Librarian: -10 pts, Free Wargear.

*Lt: No change. Free Wargear except JP.

*Phobos Lt: -10 pts.

*Riever Lt: -10 pts.

*Primaris Captain: -10 pts. Free Wargear.
(Ex: Primaris Captain /w Relic Shield-kit went from 105 pts to 80 pts.)

*Primaris Chaplain: -10 pts.

*Primaris Chaplain on Bike: -10 pts.

*Primaris Librarian: -10 pts

*Primaris Lt: -10 pts. Free Wargear.
(Ex: Primaris Lieutenant /w Volkite-kit went from 90 to 65 pts.)

*Primaris Techmarine: -10 pts.

*Techmarine: No change, but Plasma Cutter is now free...yay?

---Troops---

*Assault Intercessors: -2 ppm + free wargear.
(Ex: 10 Assault Intercessors /w TH, Plasmapistol went from 215 to 170 pts.)

*Intercessors: -2 ppm + free wargear.
(Ex: 10 Intercessors /w TH, 2 AGL went from 230 to 180 pts.)

*Heavy Intercessors: -5 ppm + free Heavy X.
(Ex: 5 Heavy Intercessors /w HB went from 150 to 115 pts.)

*Incursors: -3 ppm + free mine.
(Ex: 10 Incursors /w mine went from 220 to 180 pts.)

*Infiltrators: -4 ppm + free upgrade.
(Ex: 10 Infiltrators /w Helix went from 250 to 200 pts.)

*Tacticals: No change, but free wargear.
(Ex: 5 Tac's /w TH, MM, combi-melta went from 135 to 90 pts.)
(Ex: 10 Tac's /w TH, MM, combi-melta, melta went from 235 to 180 pts.)

---Dedicated Transport---

*Drop Pod: No change...

*Rhino: No change, but free stormbolter. Yay?

*Razorback: No change. Free weapons.
(Ex: Razorback /w Twin AC went from 130 to 100.)

*LS Storm: No change.

*Impulsor: -10 pts + free wargear.
(Ex: Impulsor /w Shield Dome, IHHS went from 130 to 100 pts.)

---Elites---

*Aggressors: -10 ppm, free FGL.
(Ex: 3 Aggressors /w Boltstorm went from 135 to 90 pts.)
(Ex: 3 Aggressors /w Flamestorm went from 120 to 90 pts.)

*Ancient in TA: -10 pts.

*Apothecary: -10 pts.

*Bladeguard Ancient: -10 pts.

*Bladeguard Veterans: No change, but free pistol to the Sgt, yay.
(They technically never gained AoC to begin with so.)

*Assault Centurions: +5 ppm(!), free wargear.
(Ex: 6 Centurions /w 2x Flamers, CAL went from 330 to 360 pts.
(Ex: 6 Centurions /w 2x Meltas, Hurricane Bolters went from 420 to 360 pts.
(Guess Flamers + CAL is a dead build now. More expensive and lost AoC. All hail our melta+hb overlords...)

*Company Ancient: -10 pts.

*Company Champion: -5 pts.

*Company Veterans: No change, no free wargear, nothing.
Clear indicator that this unit is about to get removed.

*Contemptor Dread: -10 pts

*Dread: No change, free wargear.
(Ex: Dread /w AC, stormbolter stayed at 120 pts.
(Ex: Dread /w Twin Lascannon, Heavy Flamer went from 145 to 120 pts.)

*Venerable Dread: No change, free wargear.
(Ex: Venerable /w AC, stormbolter stayed at 135 pts.)
(Ex: Venerable /w Twin Lascannon, Heavy Flamer went from 160 to 135 pts.)

*Ironclad: No change, free wargear.
(Ex: Ironclad /w meltagun, stormbolter stayed at 135 pts.)
(Ex: Ironclad /w 2 HF, 2 HKM, IAL went from 160 to 135 pts.)

*Redemptor: No change, but free IRP and OGC so -10 pts if you equip those.

*Invictor: -20 pts

*Judiciar: -10 pts.

*Primaris Apothecary: -10 pts.

*Reivers: -2 ppm, free wargear.
(Ex: 10 Reivers /w Hooks went from 190 to 160 pts.)

*Relic Terminators: -1 ppm, free wargear.

*Scouts: -2 ppm, free wargear.
(Ex: 5 Scouts /w Cloaks and Snipers went from 80 to 60 pts.)
(Ex: 10 Scouts /w Cloaks, Shotguns, TH, combi-melta went from 185 to 120 pts.)

*Servitors: No change.

*Sternguard: No change, free wargear(!).
(Ex: 10 Sternguard /w just SIBs stayed at 200 pts.)
(Ex: 10 Sternguard /w 2 MM, 8 Combi-melta and PF went from 290 to 200 pts!)

*Assault Terminators: No change, free wargear(!).
(Ex: 5 LC Termies /w Teleport went from 170 to 165 pts.)
(Ex: 5 TH Termies /w Teleport went from 220 to 165 pts.) - All hail our new TH/SS-terminator overlords.

*Terminators: -5 ppm, free wargear.
(Ex: 5 Terminators /w Cyclone ML, Teleport went from 220 to 165 pts.)

*Vanguard: +1 ppm(!), some wargear cheaper, some free.
(Ex: 10 Vanguard /w JP, 10 SS, 9 Powerswords, 1 Relicblade went from 310 to 280 pts.)
(Ex: 10 Vanguard /w JP, 9 Powerswords, 10 Plasmapistols, Relicblade went from 307 to 230 pts.)

*Veteran Intercessors: -2 ppm, free wargear.
(Ex: 10 Veterans /w TH, 2 AGL went from 250 to 200 pts.)

*Primaris Ancient: -10 pts.

---FA---

*Assault Squad: No change, but free wargear.

*Attack Bikes: No change, MM-upgrade is free.

*Bike Squad: No change. Free wargear, much cheaper MM-upgrade.

*Inceptors: No change. Plasma Exterminator is free so feels like an autopick.
(Ex: 6 Inceptors /w PE went from 300 to 240.)

*Invader ATV: -10 ppm. MM is now a free upgrade.
(Ex: 1 Invader /w MM went from 85 to 70 pts.)

*LS Tornado: No change, free wargear.

*LS Typhoon. No change, free wargear. (still overpriced)

*Land Speeder. No change, free wargear.

*Outriders: -10 ppm.
(Ex: 3 Outriders went from 135 to 105 pts.)

*Scout Bikers: No change. Free wargear on Sgt. (still rubbish.)

*SS Hailstrike: -10 pts.

*SS Hammerstrike: -20 pts.

*SS Thunderstrike: -15 pts.

*Suppressor Squad: -10 pts.

---Heavy Support---

*Devastator Centurions: +15 ppm(!), free wargear.
(Ex: 3 Dev Cents /w Grav went from 195 to 210 pts.)
(Ex: 3 Dev Cents /w HBs went from 225 to 210 pts.)
(Ex: 3 Dev Cents /w LCs went from 255 to 210 pts.)

*Devastators: +5(!) ppm, free wargear.
(Ex: 5 Dev's /w 4 LCs went from 150 to 115 pts.)
(Ex: 10 Dev's /w 4 LC's went from 240 to 230 pts.)

*Eliminators: No change.

*Eradicators: No change. MM now free so feels like an autopick.

*Firestrike: No change. Twin Las-talon is now free upgrade as it always should've been.

*Gladiator Lancer: -25 pts, free wargear.
(Ex: Lancer /w IHS, IRP, AL went from 165 to 125 pts.)

*Gladiator Reaper: -30 pts, free wargear.
(Ex: Reaper /w IHS, IRP, AL went from 195 to 150 pts.)

*Gladiator Valiant: -30 pts, free wargear.
(Ex: Valiant /w IHS, IRP, AL went from 215 to 170 pts.)

*Hellblasters: -3 ppm.

*Hunter: No change, but free stormbolter!!!

*Stalker: No change, but free stormbolter!!!!!!!!

*Land Raider Godhammer/Crusader/Redeemer: No change. Free wargear. (Up to 35 pts cheaper.)

*Predator Annihilator/Destructor: No change. Free/cheaper sponsons, so 20 pts cheaper if you take 2 Lascans and 30 pts cheaper if you take HB. Dont forget the free stormbolter!

*Repulsor: -50(!) pts. Free wargear.
(Ex: Repulsor /w Twin Lascan, OGC went from 295 to 220 pts.)

*Repulsor Executioner: -50(!) pts. Free wargear.
(Ex: Repulsor Exec /w HLD, IHS, IRP went from 320 to 250 pts.)

*Thunderfire Cannon: No change.

*Vindicator: No change, but free wargear, so -15 pts if you take a siegeshield and stormbolter.

*Whirlwind: No change, free stormbolter and vengeance launcher is a free sidegrade (so -15 pts if you used to take those.)

*Kratios: Not even in the update, guessing GW forgot they gave this thing rules for 40k...?

---Fliers and Fortifications---

*Stormhawk Interceptor: No change. Free wargear. (Up to 45 pts cheaper.)

*Stormraven Gunship: No change. Free wargear. (Up to 30 pts cheaper.)

*Stormtalon Gunship: No change. Free wargear. (Up to 20 pts cheaper.)

*Hammerfall Bunker: -75(!) pts.

So that's about it.

I'd say the winners are the units who gained a massive pointcost reduction to compensate for the loss of AoC, especially in conjunction with free wargear - while the loosers are the units who gained no or a very tiny reduction to compensate for the loss of AoC. There is a heavy theme among the winners I'd say; It's very Primaris-focused.

Winners:
- Characters who use Storm/Relic-shields and became cheaper
- Assault Intercessors
- Intercessors
- Incursors
- Infiltrators
- Heavy Intercessors
- Aggressors
- Maxed out Tacticals.
- Maxed out Scouts.
- Sternguard with certain loadouts. (all the melta you can bring.)
- Vanguard with certain loadouts. (powerweapons+plasmapistols)
- TH/SS-Terminators
- Terminators
- Reivers (I guess?)
- Hammerfall Bunker.
- Repulsors
- Gladiators
- Anything Multimelta-related.

Losers:
- Company Veterans.
- L.Claw Terminators.
- Sternguard with certain loadouts (Special Issue Boltgun-loadout.)
- Various Dreads with certain loadouts. (lost AoC without becomming cheaper.)
- Rhinos.
- Drop Pods.
- Scout Bikers.
- Assault Squad.
- Inceptors /w Assault Bolters.
- Cheapest Land Speeder loadouts.
- Eliminators
- Firestrike Turret.
- Stalkers.
- Hunters.
- TFC.
- Whirlwind.
- Dev Centurions /w Grav.
- Assault Centurions /w Flamers.

Middling:
- Everything else. (Basically everything that became slightly cheaper - but lost AoC.)

Note that I'm not saying that "winners" are suddenly good or that "loosers" are suddenly bad, just that they (imo) ended up better or worse with this update.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Minsc

[Lord_Ikka]

Eradicators also get the heavy melta rifle upgrade for free now, which is nice.

[Captain Idaho]

Bikers get free wargear so I wouldn't say they lost out?

[TheNewman]

The doctrine thing seems like a mis-step, it's a return to the original 8th ed Doctrine system and that was changed for a good reason.  I'm reserving judgment until I know what (if anything) GW does with the Vanilla codex supplements, but the current situation isn't good.

 

I'm not thrilled about AoC going away either, I know it was a bandaid but the problem it was covering is still there.  My marines have felt pretty flimsy even with AoC, without it they die if you looked at them funny.  At this point I'm seriously considering blu-tacking painted buttons onto all of my Firstborn and playing them as Stormshield veterans for the rest of the edition, at least that way they'll feel like elite troops.  If I wanted to play a horde army I'd get my 'nids out.