New Points and doctrine changes

[Minsc]

7 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Bikers get free wargear so I wouldn't say they lost out?

You're right, should probably put them in middling.

[Kallas]

On 1/5/2023 at 8:29 PM, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I find it hard to believe some are upset we got points reduction. SM were way overcosted before. Compare an Impulsor to a Killrig… it was just insane. We have plenty of great units as well. I guess some people will never be happy.

It's not that free wargear is bad, per se, it's mroe that it's lazy and doesn't actually address any internal balance issues Marines have - hell, Sternguard have just rocketed up in peoples' estimations because for 20pts you get free Combi-weapons which makes them significantly more potent; but now Company Veterans are basically screwed because they have to pay for all of their wargear.

 

Or comparing Dreadnoughts, who now have all of their weapons for free, which is good right? Except Multimeltas are still the best option over the Twin Lascannon, because the problem with the TLC wasn't only that it cost a stupid amount, but also because with 9th Ed boards the range is kind of worthless (or at least not really that important) and the Multimelta's extra AP, and extra damage at short range, was more important - and it still is.

 

The changes are useful for improving the state of Marines in general, but they're in a way that is lacking. It doesn't help a lot of things, for example:

Grav Guns are still garbage and never will be taken;

Scout Bikes are the same cost as regular Bike Squads, who now get free special weapons with more wounds and a better base Save for the cost 2" of movement. Oh, and you can add an Attack Bike if you really want to.

Whirlwinds didn't change except for free Storm Bolters/Hunter-killer missiles, so they're still hot garbage; same for Thunderfire Cannons, since they smashed them into the ground from 8E->9E, they are not worth 80pts, let alone the 120 they cost at the moment (with no change from the MFM).

 

The wargear changes improve the potency of Marines in general, but in a lazy way that does not actually improve internal balance.

 

5 hours ago, TheNewman said:

The doctrine thing seems like a mis-step, it's a return to the original 8th ed Doctrine system and that was changed for a good reason.  I'm reserving judgment until I know what (if anything) GW does with the Vanilla codex supplements, but the current situation isn't good.

 

I'm not thrilled about AoC going away either, I know it was a bandaid but the problem it was covering is still there.  My marines have felt pretty flimsy even with AoC, without it they die if you looked at them funny.  At this point I'm seriously considering blu-tacking painted buttons onto all of my Firstborn and playing them as Stormshield veterans for the rest of the edition, at least that way they'll feel like elite troops.  If I wanted to play a horde army I'd get my 'nids out.

About Doctrines, the reason it was changed had a lot to do with buff stacking in 8E which is not nearly as prevalent in 9E. Iron Hands, for example, can't stack a heap of survivability buffs in the same way and make immortal Leviathan Dreadnoughts (they can still do a fair amount, but a lot less).

 

As for AoC...yeah, I kind of agree. It was awkward but it did what it needed to do: make Marines tougher. I was running Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts and they felt sufficiently tough enough to do the job - with the loss of AoC, I'm not sure they will be, especially as we're gonna see an increase in firepower from other Marines too. Many of my magnetised Grey Hunters are probably gonna go back to being either Wolf Guard with (a gun, probably a Combi)+Storm Shield, especially with AOO letting me run without compulsory Troops.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Kallas

[Karhedron]

6 hours ago, TheNewman said:

The doctrine thing seems like a mis-step, it's a return to the original 8th ed Doctrine system and that was changed for a good reason.  I'm reserving judgment until I know what (if anything) GW does with the Vanilla codex supplements, but the current situation isn't good.

 

While that is true, if you look at the results for the last 6 months, the only Marine factions that were performing above trash-tier were the melee specialists (Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels to some extent). Iron Hands and other shooty chapters were unperforming which is probably why GW felt safe in allowing them to remain in the Devastator Doctrine. Yes they get a bigger benefit but as they are an under-performing sub-faction, that is probably not going to be a problem.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Karhedron

[Lemondish]

6 hours ago, Kallas said:

now Company Veterans are basically screwed because they have to pay for all of their wargear.

That feels a lot more like a sign of a future Legends entry than anything.

 

The thing folks still seem to be missing, and honestly it's right there so I have no idea why, is that by making this change at least some variations of these previously dead units are finally viable or at least winding their way into list tests. That's not something we should easily ignore. For those so beaten down by 9th's Marine meta, that's what a win looks like.

 

The only other way you achieve this is a full and complete rebuild of the entire Codex, Supplements, and weapon profiles. This, in its place, is the simplest and easiest way to get folks looking at taking the 80% of Space Marine units that were outright too poor for their points.

 

Honestly, who bloody cares if your barebones options for Dreads or Sternguard or what have you aren't competitively viable, because my brothers, they never were before. Having at least one configuration that makes a vast majority of your units exciting choices again is so much better than where we were before, and you can make all these great choices without the opportunity cost of having to decide between toys or boys.

 

And the best part about this is that Marine armies start to look like humanity's iconic warriors they always should have been, with the best equipment, strapped to the brim with everything they need for the job. Don't discount just how cool these armies will look on the table with super tooled up units taking the field. These are units that were, until this update, completely DoA even with AoC.

 

Take the win, brothers.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Lemondish

[Lemondish]

5 hours ago, Karhedron said:

While that is true, if you look at the results for the last 6 months, the only Marine factions that were performing above trash-tier were the melee specialists (Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels to some extent). Iron Hands and other shooty chapters were unperforming which is probably why GW felt safe in allowing them to remain in the Devastator Doctrine. Yes they get a bigger benefit but as they are an under-performing sub-faction, that is probably not going to be a problem.

Exactly right, and they even highlighted this as their intent in the metawatch video.

 

Also we have to consider the rumours of supplement updates as a potential factor here too. What's the timeline look for that, and if it's going to happen, will it happen in a way that better balances these options across armies?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"It's not that free wargear is bad, per se, it's mroe that it's lazy and doesn't actually address any internal balance issues Marines have - hell, Sternguard have just rocketed up in peoples' estimations because for 20pts you get free Combi-weapons which makes them significantly more potent; but now Company Veterans are basically screwed because they have to pay for all of their wargear."

 

I agree with Lemondish, what you’re really asking for is a completely rewritten overhauled codex but we are close to the end of this edition. What I do not want is what happened transitioning from 8th to 9th… codex SM 2.0 with supplements that was OP followed by the next edition codex which was heavily nerfed. So maybe cool your jets and be a bit more patient. A lot of people are super excited about the points break and tbh SM units this edition were criminally overcosted for what we got this edition.

Edited January 7, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Minsc]

Yeah for what its worth, I'm way more excited to give my Salamanders a go (even if they lost no-reroll-wound for that rather unimpressive ignores-AP1) than I have been fore quite a long time.

 

Internal balance - even between the same units - might be skewered (but when wasn't it?), but plenty more units look fun and viable with this update than previously.

 

Is it a bandaid to compensate for losing AoC, and something that might change again in 10th? Absolutely, but right now I'll gladly take it!

[XeonDragon]

For Raven Guard, I think being able to stay in tactical doctrine for turns 4 and/or 5 is great for us, as it gives us 3 or 4 turns to take out characters. Currently, at least the way I play, I feel that turns 2 and 3 result in a "mad rush" to shoot and kill characters (which is what we are good at) and, in my experience, if there are lots of characters or a couple of hard ones (e.g a T9 Hive Fleet Gorgon Tervigon with a 4++!) that either wasn't enough time, or left you exposed. 

 

I think that for RG, this means we can use eliminators or other shooting units to plink away for 2 turns, before hurling in the melee units to finish them off. It just gives us more time to do what we do best - kill characters. 

 

In addition, I think the changes to scouts and phobos units in terms of points only help us make fluffy lists. Changes to VGVs with lightning claws not great, but overall, I think RG lists (pure or successor) are more viable now. 

[Tacitus]

On 1/7/2023 at 3:49 AM, Kallas said:

It's not that free wargear is bad, per se,

I'd even argue it's not free wargear.  Look at what dropped and what didn't. 

 

1)  Units devoted to Optional Options: Combat Veterans, Vanguard Veterans, etc.  - the ones with the optional options generally didn't get free wargear.  Maybe a few items went free, but the big ones you think of first did not. 

2)  Units with Trade-off Mandatory-Options:  Aggressors, Sternguard, Terminators - Terminators had to have an off-hand.  Power Fist, Chain Fist, Storm Shield, 2nd LC - They were the same price before - Power/Chain Fists for shootinators, Stormshield/LC for bashinators.   They're the same price (vs Each other) now.  The price of fists just went down resulting in basically points drops for the unit not free wargear.

3)  Units with I'm-at-1995-so-I-might-as-well options - Icarus Rocket Packs, Pintle Mounted gun barrels. 

 

That last one makes me think this is test balloon for the gentle nudge closer to Power Level.  The units in Group 1 have/had too much swing in value to go Points-Disguised-as-Power-Level.  The Units in Group 2 were straight points drops - and mostly the free weapon swaps won't change how/what you do with them.  The units in Group 3 were a flat Points Drop + a little value boost because they were probably bad - now most of them are Meh, not having made it to good.