White Scars Post Arks of Omen

[Prot]

So although a pretty quite area of the forum, and probably one of the worst marines in competitive play, I'd like to think this may be one of the most fun changes the army has seen in a while.

 

I do think the AoE Detachment change gives the ability to make much cooler lists. I love the changes to the new Primaris Speeders, as well as Outriders, and especially ATV's. 

 

Aggressors and White Scars are a nice combo too. 

 

The thing I thought was going to happen that didn't was give a greater ability to access the Assault Doctrine which I think is critical for the army. (Getting to the fight early doesn't help if you hit like rubber). The rumour was apparently wrong, although the order of Doctrine changes does get a little more flexible again.

 

Transports work better too, and those Plasma Inceptors being assault weapons look fairly potent as well.

 

Any thoughts or ideas for your White Scars?

[Dr. Clock]

The points drops open things up quite a bit, and make a few old favourites shine through for sure.

 

My list picked up about 10 marines on these changes.

 

Noting that this is basically a fluffy list based on Dark Imperium and Indomitus, I am pretty excited to finish off the last 10 Assault intercessors i've had kicking around in my desk for a couple years since finishing the second Outriders unit and speeders for theme:

 

Gravis Captain

Primaris Chaplain (bike)

 

15 Assault Intercessors (probably 3x5 for maximum assault sergeants)

10 Intercessors (20 wounds on backfield screening)

 

5 Bladeguard (obviously)

10 Reviers (now the cheapest marine you can run because worst weapons, but natural DS and pseudo-fly + shenanigans strat = 2x5 for late game)

 

2x3 Inceptors

2x3 Outriders

2x1 Stormspeeder Thunderstrike (I said it was a fluffy list)

 

1x3 Eradicators

1x5 Hellblasters

 

That's 200 wounds and a broad toolkit; it's gonna be fun.

 

I've always played a balanced list with a few shooting units behind the 'speartip' that's usually positioning for turn 3 rush. You can always strat into assault with a unit per turn if targets of opportunity present, but I like the early game 'joust' position and skirmish game as well. Being an assault doctrine army doesn't mean that you should eschew shooting entirely IMO. Having a few shooting options pays dividends early and late, I find, since for the most part opponents are so distracted by the assault rush that they either split fire and don't do enough to either firebase or assault elements, or simply forget about the shooting altogether...

 

FTR this is 5th Co. Storm Lords with elements of the 8th and 10th, so it'll be fun to do the last 10 assault Intercessors in 7th Co. purple helmets. Gotta stoke those Fierce Rivalries amirite? ; )

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

[Prot]

I played my first game last night with the new points... 

 

Last night my Word Bearers friend and I had a game, and I switched to my White Scars to do an experiment. Keep in mind White Scars rank extremely low competitively (I'm talking down there with Ultra's, and Imperial Fists). 

 

What I do with White Scars is take a lot of iconic (IE: crappy ) units. So they went down in cost a lot.

 

Long story short, he paid new points, and so did I, using the new detachment. He got hammered. I had about 280 points extra in my list, he got his lassponsons, a kitted out squad of Legionaires and his 10 Man termie brick shot up notably.

 

I almost tabled him BUT I will say we both disappeared. It literally felt like... I'm going to expose one unit, and try to kill you with it, then I disappear. His turn was the same thing, something would poke out a corner and then disappear. 

 

Only 2 units managed to be truly hard to shift: His Termies, and my Bladeguard Vets.  I guess we both got used to AoC. I think after a turn he was shocked how much he lost, then his response I'd feel the same. (I lost 3 ATV's with MM's, 2 Outriders, a Thunderstrike speeder, and troops... wow)

 

I honestly think whoever went first had the advantage. We do play with a lot ruins. (6 in total, 4 have a large footprint).

 

I think Bile, and Abaddon collectively saw a ton of play in tournaments. They are both effectively hit very hard. I don't understand why GW hit Chaos with a multilayered bat. I think combined with the loss of AoC, it's too much. 

 

The White Scars on the other hand could not take advantage of the core tactic of advance and charge. Simply put, Word Bearers hit MUCH harder than marines, and definitely harder than White Scars, so I had to play like... an Ultramarine, be cagy, and wait til turn 3 which is hard to do.

 

His Termie brick almost cleaned me out. I think my Aggressors were a notable improvement, everything else truly felt like a one shot wonder (aside from Bladeguard).

[Dr. Clock]

Yep - seems about right.

 

I like Marine vs. Marine fights to be dynamic and decisive, not grinding and stalematey. I think AoC made everything a brick, and bricks into mega-bricks. A few reasonable bricks is okay for the game, but they shouldn't be nearly as unassailable as AoC terminators were getting IMO.

 

Now we all actually have to 'use it or lose it'.

 

I don't know what other armies you may play, but I think marines are back to MSU trading with slightly more staying power. Go above 5 at your peril, as maxing number of units is the best way to reduce opponent fire efficiency / trading economy.

 

I'd be interested to see what adding 2-3 light reserves units will do to the first turn advantage - did either of you use many, or just line up and charge across from turn 1? I already go hard on 4x deepstriking units, but throwing hellblasters, Eradicators and even Outriders up the sides for a couple turns and deploying basically just Intercessors and hidden speeders at the start might be fun now that it doesn't cost all the CP. Like - would it make sense to be even MORE cagey by leaving half the army off the table to angle for turn 2 shooting and turn 3 rush? I do love a good beta strike lol.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Prot]

35 minutes ago, Dr. Clock said:

Yep - seems about right.

 

 

 

Now we all actually have to 'use it or lose it'.

 

I don't know what other armies you may play, but I think marines are back to MSU trading with slightly more staying power. Go above 5 at your peril, as maxing number of units is the best way to reduce opponent fire efficiency / trading economy.

 

 

I play a lot of armies. White Scars are one of the oldest marine armies I have that are mostly painted, and they are one of the worst armies I own, so I wanted to try them first because the changes were so huge.

 

Yes, MSU is better I think too, not just for trading, but options. (IE: a lot of first born squads will have fun with all the free options/sergeants, etc)

Quote

 

I'd be interested to see what adding 2-3 light reserves units will do to the first turn advantage - did either of you use many, or just line up and charge across from turn 1? I already go hard on 4x deepstriking units, but throwing hellblasters, Eradicators and even Outriders up the sides for a couple turns and deploying basically just Intercessors and hidden speeders at the start might be fun now that it doesn't cost all the CP. Like - would it make sense to be even MORE cagey by leaving half the army off the table to angle for turn 2 shooting and turn 3 rush? I do love a good beta strike lol.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

So as I was making the list I was running out of time while calculating point changes. I decided to try resolving that by pulling out the Repulsor, and just using it for carrying 3 eradicators. I was considering putting it in reserves but he had a lot of cultists, and the foot print of our forces made it a bit dicy.

 

In the future I would go back to some reserves. With White Scars though I don't usually do more than a squad since I'm all over the board and it's easy to get too far ahead of the rest of my force. I think we were so destructive to each other it just would have been the most delicate stuff I put aside. The ATV's were really disappointing... I was shocked how quick they disappeared. Same with Outriders. It'll take some getting used to without AoC again.

[Dr. Clock]

22 hours ago, Prot said:

The ATV's were really disappointing... I was shocked how quick they disappeared. Same with Outriders. It'll take some getting used to without AoC again.

That's for flippin' sure...

 

Looking forward to a game with the Lords of Storm, but not until I have the last 10 Assault Intercessors painted methinks. I actually think 20 Salamanders terminators is higher up my play queue ; )

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

[Prot]

Yes, but to be fair to White Scars, I think with the right combo of White Scars' tricks, they could make very good use of assault terminators. They come in, and with a Litany get a bonus to charge, use the 3D6 pick the highest for the charge, and they are very nearly a sure thing. (Assault Termies just got a great boost).

 

And the disappointment in the ATV's is hard to take, but I don't want to just put them away and pull out attack bikes, even if it is the more economic move.

 

Some things I really think will work for Scars: Aggressors. Not super hard hitting, and they need re-rolls, but Advancing and firing was really decent with AoC gone. I really feel like they need something to help though, I don't know what. I had a Primaris LT (basically outfitted like a Bladeguard) and he had Plume running so with the reroll 1's wound it really helped them a bit. 

 

Plasma Inceptors. I have to get these rolling for these guys. Just a good synergy with advancing/firing normal.

 

Anything else to come up with for White Scars specifically out of this update?

[Dr. Clock]

All makes sense. The terminator list is Salamanders simply because my oldmarines are painted that way (and Lamenters tbf); Storm Lords for me is Primaris only force.

 

Keep playing the ATVs if you like them, I say; pretty sure you can find a way to keep them relevant, just may need a change in tactics... They may not be as points-efficient as attack bikes or Inceptors for sheer firepower, but for cheap skirmishing and scoring in units of 1 or 2 I could see it.

 

Inceptors have been my MVPs plenty of games. I've done 3 plasma and 3 bolter for ages so I'll not be changing the bolters over (expect they'll return to the cheaper of the 2 in due course).

 

This begs the question: what's your 'ideal Fast Attack loadout' looking like, assuming max of 6? I've basically locked myself to 2x Inceptor, 2x Outrider and 2x speeder for the foreseeable because I... also play alot of armies lol.

 

Aside from any slam dunk new releases I'm not likely to buy anything new for them this year (just working on backlog of Intercessors and second Indomitus Lt and Captain to turn into a pair more Bladeguard).

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

 

 

[Prot]

Great point about the ATV's. It's one of those things where I have 3 that are half painted. (I do a lot of weathering with enamels/oils on my White Scars and it's usually the finishing touch but takes a while).

 

So while they sit there in in an unfinished state, it certainly is tempting to finish them now that they got the reduction. 

 

If I'm being honest I'm tossing the idea around of Scars or Wolves to finish the edition with this points drop. But again, being honest, the Wolves appear to offer so much more until T3 of the game. More tricksy Psychics (although Scars is solid). Fights last, and the ability to put a squad in Assault Doctrine with a psychic power is incredibly potent for Wolves, and would have been massive for Scars.

 

The unique units Wolves have is quite an advantage now too.  But the one thing that pulls me back to Scars is the fiction (surprised how well GW writes the Scars). The fact I have a fair amount painted/assembled, and... the Speeed!

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This begs the question: what's your 'ideal Fast Attack loadout' looking like, assuming max of 6? I've basically locked myself to 2x Inceptor, 2x Outrider and 2x speeder for the foreseeable because I... also play alot of armies lol.

 

I have been trying to use 6 for sure. The thing is Outriders being so locked down is frustrating, but at least now with extra slots it doesn't feel as handcuffed now in the list to take a squad of 3 Outriders. Still very mediocre performance (I wish the bolters were Assault).

 

So for me here's what I'm running for testing purposes:

- Thunderstrike Speeder (better value now, hits hard, but still absolute paper, the BS 2 is what keeps me trying it.)

- Outriders. (super inflexible, no fists, no specials, but big point reduction)

- ATV's (as mentioned, not so good..... Also I think if I recall they can't be brought back by an Apothecary anymore...But healed? So 8 wounds can come into play, but rarely).

 

For effectiveness:

- Plasma Inceptors (Love that these are assault weapons).

 

I don't know what to take though for Vanguard Vets or Terminators. One of them seems critical, but I can't  decide. The VV with shields are higher priced now I believe, and the Termies are slow, but hammer/shield seems a good deal now.

[Dr. Clock]

Yep yep; I hear you on the Outriders... I wish they could come in larger units or even just 'buy 3 a second unit that automatically combat squads into 2 units at deployment' so that you could get more than 3 in each FA slot. That could end up in a spam scenario with 6x3 at max, though given their lack of flex I don't think that'd be super abusive. It's definitely weird that only Deathwatch can take units larger then 3, and get ObSec on them at that. Assault weapons would certainly make them more appealing, as would even just a power sword. Such is life.

 

At current points, Terminators are most likely better value that VanVets, although they lose a bit in terms of theme... TH/SS with jump pack and 1 less wound certainly does not seem 5 pts better than a terminator, although a more traditional 'mixed unit' might be a bit cheaper without losing much value: 6 jp vets with 2 double claws, 2 pf and 3 shields is 187 points, which seems reasonable and will still leave a mark in Assault Doctrine with dmg 2 claws and dmg 3 fists. Assault terminators are definitely a good deal though and advance and charge is no joke for them... Dmg 4 hammers will give anyone fits!

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[bc99]

I have one squad of bikes I’m working on. I’ll have another for the full list. I’ll use them for screening out my opponent’s army, to allow my army time to get into striking range. 
 

I’ve gone with a couple of assault intercesor squads with one regular intercesor squad. I may build a unit of heavy intercesors for holding mid.

 

Blade guard of course. I have one melta ATV and felt like I should keep it out of sight to deploy quickly to counter bigger threats.

 

I’m definitely taking some aggressors and another redemptor. My final HQ will be a bike chaplain to zoom about where needed.

 

My biggest issue has been getting there too fast meaning into combat before turn 3. It’s hard not to as I need to get up to the objectives to counter them. I haven’t finished my blade guard yet but they’ll be a big help in that. Also I’ve got them a transport if needed.

Edited January 17, 2023 by bc99

[Prot]

Well I loved the Aggressors and my plans have changed since the GW oopsie FAQ. Plasmaceptors a would have been auto include for WS but not anymore. 
 

also hammers aren’t free so this brings VV back into the conversation over Termies for me. 

[INKS]

I've got a list but am a little lost now with the inceptor increase. not sure what is going to take their place.

[Prot]

Inceptor 'oopsie' certainly hit my White Scars harder than any other army. I'm not sure where to take the army right now. I have a few test games under my belt, and still not sure about the Primaris fast units being worth it at all to be honest.

[XeonDragon]

I think assault squads and aggressors are looking interesting for a first disposable wave to lock opponent in combat and then a 2nd wave to knock them down. Other ideas in the thread are all awesome. 

[Prot]

I was thinking of going full vanguard assault squads to hit a little harder.  Aggressors for sure though. Love how they have worked so far. 

[brother_b]

I have no desire to run regular marines vs. primaris. In fact the only reason I took a non-blood angel army is because I didn’t want my best units to be basically legacy units.

 

I really love the scars play style; they’re so fast and hit hard. That being said sometimes they get there too fast and and suffer.

 

My first wave may have to be bikes, dreads, and blade guard, to be followed by squishier assault intercessors.
 

This seems counterintuitive but I have to get to the objectives and I need something with a little more staying power.

[Prot]

I'm curious how long you've been playing White Scars... only reason I ask is I find they don't hit hard at all. At least not harder than any other marine army, until T3. But I personally believe they hit 'soft' compared to all the other assault based marine armies prior to  T3. (And in some cases T3 doesn't make a huge difference.)

 

In no particular order for assault prominence I put White Scars below:

Blood Angels

Black Templars

Space Wolves

 

And that's just marines. We have consider what we fall WAY below on the assault hierarchy.... 

World Eaters

Emperor's Children

Death Guard (They are just a magic bullet for white scars)

Creations of Bile

Word Bearers

Red Corsairs

 

I consider all of those Chaos choices to be better at either staying around in close combat our just out smashing White Scars.

 

 

I mean recently maybe this has changed, but since Arks I was most excited to try the White Scars and all of the units I consider 'fluffy' really stunk it up... Outriders/ATV's, etc.

 

And for sure you can get there too fast, but I try to convert that to early scoring because the way I look at it is this:

 

- What do we bring to the table that no one else does? Speed + Advance + Shoot short range weaponry.  (The assault part, to me, is nearly meaningless unless you're facing a glass cannon).

 

- Early board dominance. I WISH we had a redeploy strat. We need that in a big way. And Encirclement is somewhat diminished with the 'free' reserves now. But be that as it may, we might be one of the best at taking Engage. (With Arks it becomes slightly easier early game to get 4 quarters.)

 

- I think rotating a list around scoring our secondaries is huge. We aren't good enough at surviving or assault to make the game around those factors. So I like to score early, and try not to fade before T3 is well under way.

 

 

 

 

[brother_b]

On 2/6/2023 at 9:31 AM, Prot said:

I'm curious how long you've been playing White Scars... only reason I ask is I find they don't hit hard at all. At least not harder than any other marine army, until T3. But I personally believe they hit 'soft' compared to all the other assault based marine armies prior to  T3. (And in some cases T3 doesn't make a huge difference.)

<snip>

 

If the quote was for me I've been playing about 1-2 years. I have only played smaller points games regularly, meaning 1000-1500ish. That being said I think my input is still valid as I believe we're likely having the same issues.

 

They do not hit hard turns 1 and 2. If you can last until turn 3 all of a sudden you're hitting very hard. The caveat is, what's really left of your army by that time doesn't do much. And if you're swinging against high toughness models it's an uphill slag for your Intercessors.

 

I've also found the "fluffy" units to be horrible. I like the ATVs for a first turn 1 hit, but at this point I've only got 1 built and it's not enough. I feel that even with 2 or 3 it might not make that much of a difference as they feel very swingy. For my outriders I think they're just horrible. I wish they had power sword or thunder hammer options for a little more oomph.

 

Basically everything you've written feels correct Prot. I have no super unit like Abaddon, I have no staying power, my basic army-wide ability is amazing, but I get there too fast, before it kicks into play.

 

RE: Death guard, ugh it's a huge pain to fight this army. When turn 3 does role around nothing matters for my assault intercesssors, as the -1 damage erases my ability to kill a single unit with a failed chainsword hit. Instead I still need to rely on my special weapons, and I'm left wanting all game long.

 

I have no suggestions besides bring more Redemptor Dreadnaughts, and even they are lacking without an invuln save.

 

For Chogoris!

[Prot]

Agreed. I only ask about the overall play history you have with the scars because it's  been getting worse imo. I do pay attention to meta data, and I think we had a 'blip'. The blip lasted about 5 days when Assault Plasma Inceptors were 'accidentally' over discounted. I never got to try that, and to be honest it felt like that short period of tournament success leaned incredibly hard into that unit.

 

I heard a rumour that Scars and Ultra's were due to get their supplements in 2023, but the advent of 10th has delayed those for the foreseeable future. No idea if it's true but it means we have to figure out another way.

 

I do LOVE the new dreadnought for White Scars, flank/encirclement the new dread and then a 3D6, pick 2, charge has a good chance of leaving a mark. 

 

For conventional units, I don't know.

[brother_b]

And I think the blip of the five days with the plasma interceptors was a blip that most of marine armies felt as it what a big buff (so I read on the internet).
 

Blood angels, of course, surprisingly won the Las Vegas open, but that is such a hyper focused list, that none of our other armies can even get close.

 

I have been focusing on finishing my Admech so no I don’t have any recent games. That being said, recently I put together some more models and I’m going to try and create a type of first wave, second wave assault force.

 

First wave of bikes and a bike chaplain to take an objective or forward screen, and a second wave or my Assault Intercessors, blade guard, and dreads.

 

I’ll likely get pasted especially when facing any type of high tough army as my anti tank, anti toughness shooting is almost non existent or only enough to focus on one unit a turn.

[Prot]

Yea that Blood Angel list doesn't really count for me as it was a Nephilim tournament to end the LVO season. So... AoC was in effect. The winner of that event doesn't seem to rate the Blood Angels that highly anymore but they all claim doom when changes come through. He literally had a rematch vs. Orks when he got home and pasted Orks again so take that for what it's worth.

 

Back to WS... I play against BA quite a bit and the inherent +1 to wound is incredibly potent, and of course the thing I always say about those 'supplements' is they have a great range of unique models that are fantastic at what they do... Sanguinary Guard, Wulfen, Primaris Crusaders, etc. So we always have to find our magic with base codex units that work best with the traits. 

 

I plan on pulling out the White Scars tonight. No idea what I'll be facing but my list will be using a few units I don't normally use with White Scars. Most notably Hammer/Shield assault termies. 

 

I typically take a 'fast wave' of Outriders, and ATV's guarding a chaplain. But they rarely do anything. The second wave does most of the work for me. I'm also going to use some Phobos shenanigans to get some points in this one.

 

Our Secondary isn't horrible. It's not as easy as the Wolves one, where they simply have to be engaged, or charging. Scars have to actually kill something. So I'll be hunting weak targets. :)

 

[brother_b]

Awesome let me know! I’m actually building this army kind of correctly meaning I’ve got only a few models unbuilt instead of a pile of plastic. I definitely want brutalis dread but have been considering heavy intercessors to plop down on a forward objective.

The other thing is I rarely spam units, even good ones, with troops obviously the only exception. I like Aggressors and might try another unit of eradicators.

 

Again let me know how your fight goes! For Chogoris!

Edited February 11, 2023 by brother_b

[Ulfast]

How did it go Prot in the game?

[Prot]

On 2/10/2023 at 6:13 PM, brother_b said:

Awesome let me know! I’m actually building this army kind of correctly meaning I’ve got only a few models unbuilt instead of a pile of plastic. I definitely want brutalis dread but have been considering heavy intercessors to plop down on a forward objective.

The other thing is I rarely spam units, even good ones, with troops obviously the only exception. I like Aggressors and might try another unit of eradicators.

 

Again let me know how your fight goes! For Chogoris!

 

6 hours ago, Ulfast said:

How did it go Prot in the game?

 

I did a longer report to not muddy this topic on the White Scars forum.

 

.... I'm ready for the Brutalis Dread!! Bring it on!