Balance Dataslate and Arks of Omen

[WrathOfTheLion]

Hello fellow denizens of the Rock,

 

With the new balance dataslate and points changes, and now the FAQ to allow Deathwing/Ravenwing detachments using the Arks of Omen detachment in the new season, there are a lot of changes out and about now.

• Munitorum Field Manual
• Balance Dataslate

 

What are y'all looking at doing? What changes do you plan on making to your lists? Are there any units that you weren't taking before, that now you're thinking of taking?

 

Are you considering a boarding actions force to play games with that?

• Boarding Actions Mustering Rules

 

Starting this thread to discuss any and all the changes in these new campaign books and balance documents relative to Dark Angels/successors.

[Karhedron]

Arks of Omen are nice for opening up a couple of extra HQ slots for a TDA Libby or Biker Chaplain. With the discount on many Terminator and Biker units, slotting these in should be easy enough as well. Outrider squads seem like particular winners from the points drops.

 

The loss of AoC stings a little, especially for Terminators but the price drop means more boots (or wheels) on the ground. It also means that all the Ap-1 weapaons we have access to become a bit more meta-relevant, as does the entire Tactical Doctrine.

 

Being able to combine the benefits of both Deathwing and Ravenwing in AoO would have been nice but might have been a bit much to expect. The old combo of Vanguard + Outrider still exists and while we have to pay 3CPs for the privilege, it might still be worth it, particularly in larger battles.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

The old combo of Vanguard + Outrider still exists and while we have to pay 3CPs for the privilege, it might still be worth it, particularly in larger battles.

 

The old combo of Vanguard + Outrider no longer exists, at least not in Arks of Omen games.

 

Playing an Arks of Omen match means using an Arks of Omen Detachment.

[Karhedron]

True but the balance slate updates are applicable to all games, not just AoO ones.

[phandaal]

11 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

True but the balance slate updates are applicable to all games, not just AoO ones.

 

Yes. However, the intent of this thread seems to be to discuss the changes relative to Arks of Omen.

[WrathOfTheLion]

52 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

Yes. However, the intent of this thread seems to be to discuss the changes relative to Arks of Omen.

Sorry for any notification spam, accidentally clicked solution while trying to reply.

 

The intent is for any changes with either the balance dataslate/munitorum manual, boarding actions games themselves or the Arks of Omen season, as long as it's relatively clear what context you're talking about.

 

We could split into further threads if we want, but I figured we'd have something to discuss whatever combo of these books and documents and how it pertains to us over the next six months or so.

[Handsome Fred]

There is a faq for the 1st and 2nd company detachments in aoo too. 

Just like before if you have only innercircle/deathwing or ravenwing you have obsec. 

 

Tbh I'm very curious about our angels with aoo, I can see a lot of good options despite we lost aoc we still have our transhuman with the first company 

[WrathOfTheLion]

2 hours ago, Handsome Fred said:

There is a faq for the 1st and 2nd company detachments in aoo too. 

Just like before if you have only innercircle/deathwing or ravenwing you have obsec. 

 

Tbh I'm very curious about our angels with aoo, I can see a lot of good options despite we lost aoc we still have our transhuman with the first company 

With how cheap upgraded terminators are, I think making a big brick of kitted out obsec Deathwing Terminators is going to a bit nuts.

 

It'll just be finding the right stuff to back it up. Dreadnoughts will probably be a good choice, along with Talonmasters/Black Knights, as you should be able to take them in a Deathwing detachment, given they have the inner circle keyword.

[FarFromSam]

Unfortunately I find the new detachment too restricting.   Our biggest strength was having unique obsec units in DWT, and RW Bike Squads.  Using them to pick where to fight, and on terms that were favorable to us, Usually in the midfield, and then stealing objectives.   That's where I found most of my success.  Losing obsec on both of those units means stubborn defiance is also no longer viable.  

 

So, maybe the new way forward will be 30 th/ss DWT , 12 plasma inceptors, and 9 MMAB... but that seems boring, and weak for Playing the missions.

 

What I'd like to see is the old rule of take: Sammael RWBS = troops

Belial DWT = troops

Azrael DWT + RWBS = troops

Or let us take vanguard detachments at -3cp

 

Knowing there's a new edition on the horizon,  and that DA will be getting some (hopefully) love in AoO, it feels like GW is rewarding players who've collected tons of models (say a whole 1st company) or are willing to spend a lot to buy them. 

 

 So it'll be an interesting little stint...  and I'd guess I'm probably going to end up spamming 55 terminators for a while, and earn some well deserved scorn from my friends.   Eerily similar back to the days when the only playable DA lists were toting around TH/SS with cyclones.  The only difference is now everyone's SS is 4++.  

 

Excited for what comes next.

[ValourousHeart]

On 1/6/2023 at 7:49 AM, Karhedron said:

Being able to combine the benefits of both Deathwing and Ravenwing in AoO would have been nice but might have been a bit much to expect. The old combo of Vanguard + Outrider still exists and while we have to pay 3CPs for the privilege, it might still be worth it, particularly in larger battles.

 

I too was hoping that we would get little more flexibility with the AOO detachment.  On the upside Sammael,  Talonmaster, RW Black Knights, RW Apoth, Banner and Champion all have the Inner Circle keyword and the Captain on bike can get it with Rites of Initiation.  So we could include them in a first company detachment as an option for a Black and White list that only used a single detachment.

[Lion El Jason]

Ravenwing is pretty much dead in AoO.  I have been doing ok with them in Nephilim but I got 300 points to spend and no FA slots to spend them on so its just characters and black knights.

If you take enough attack bikes to be viable, you get no obsec.  If you want both you bloat out your elites with sub par options.  

As long as you are restricted to 6 FA, they aren't really viable.

 

Mixed wing is gone too.  Its easier to ally with Leagues of Votan than it is to ally DW with RW.

 

Deathwing could be close to 50 terminators plus Azrael and Ezekiel.  Thats a reasonable basis to start from.

The remaining Secondary, Stubborn Defiance, is great for DW too and 10 Deathwing Terminators with TH&SS and 2 CML will happily get you max points for it.

Talonmasters may well go in a good DW list now, even with the points drop, Strike Masters just seem overcosted.  Azrael's rerolls plus the Talonmaster should be enough to elevate some shooting to tolerable from pointless, so maybe massed storm bolters and Azrael will be good.

 

With free gear, my attempt at double heavy flamers is likely no longer valid.

Strange new times!

[Karhedron]

6 hours ago, Lion El Jason said:

Ravenwing is pretty much dead in AoO.  I have been doing ok with them in Nephilim but I got 300 points to spend and no FA slots to spend them on so its just characters and black knights.

If you take enough attack bikes to be viable, you get no obsec.  If you want both you bloat out your elites with sub par options.  

As long as you are restricted to 6 FA, they aren't really viable.

 

In Nephilim the Ravenwing Outrider detachment also only had 6 FA slots. What did your build look like before?

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think Ravenwing is at a distinct disadvantage because of the single detachment, with little/no keyword crossover with the rest of the army. You can give characters, dreadnoughts, etc. the Deathwing/Inner Circle keyword, as well that some Ravenwing units have it (Black Knights, Talonmaster, Sammael, Apothecary, Ancient and Champion), and a lot of other named/generic characters have it (Interrogator-Chaplains, Asmodai, Lazarus etc.).

 

So just the way those keywords are constructed, there's a lot more ways to get other things into a Deathwing army.

 

Having the mobile obsec on Outriders and Bike Squads is certainly nice, but given the nature of the detachment and that lots of other armies are going to just straight skip their troops, I do have to wonder how much that would actually matter.

 

* I think all Librarians have the Inner Circle keyword as well, so that adds all of them to any list building.

Edited January 16, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[phandaal]

Ravenwing can forgo Obsec on their bikes and bring a couple of Troops units if they really want to. Toss out some infiltrators for stubborn defiance while your attack bikes and Talonmaster obliterate anything that comes close. No need for Obsec if your opponent's objective-grabbers are dead.

 

Can always go with Rites of War if Obsec is really that important.

 

The main strength of Ravenwing will be sitting in Devastator Doctrine for the entire game, blasting away with super mobile heavy weapons.

[WrathOfTheLion]

7 minutes ago, phandaal said:

Ravenwing can forgo Obsec on their bikes and bring a couple of Troops units if they really want to. Toss out some infiltrators for stubborn defiance while your attack bikes and Talonmaster obliterate anything that comes close. No need for Obsec if your opponent's objective-grabbers are dead.

 

Can always go with Rites of War if Obsec is really that important.

 

The main strength of Ravenwing will be sitting in Devastator Doctrine for the entire game, blasting away with super mobile heavy weapons.

Yeah, I was thinking of following up with some similar comments after giving it some thought.

 

There's a lot of factors in play - flyers got nerfed, so the Nephilim Jetfighter and the Dark Talon probably won't see as much use.

 

As you mentioned though, obsec will probably not be that important. Obsec can be nice, but it's not overly important when any troop, etc. can either be blasted off the board or smashed with a heavy hitting elite unit. Add that many armies will likely just forgo having troops/obsec entirely, you can just focus on hitting them with the more powerful units. So as you say, you can do a 'mostly' Ravenwing army, losing obsec on the bikes but trading it for filling whatever holes you need.

[Lion El Jason]

Permanent Devastator is obviously going to be good, another reason not to bother with normal bikes and outriders.
Also I considered AoC an overall RW nerf due to the majority of weapons being -1 AP so losing it actually helps our offense more than it hurts defence.  

 

TBH is 6x3 Attack Bikes with Multi Melta now the core of the list?

[FarFromSam]

The Rule of 3 keeps MMAB down to 3x3 squads.  And I have to say that I really admire yalls optimistic outlook on losing ObSec.   Being able to move across the board and steal positions with a cheap unit was huge for my game plan.

 

While our fire power went up, the way we win games has plummeted.  Stubborn defiance feels dead.  Real dead.  Not having obsec DWT to secure it makes it a liability.    Oaths is also hamstrung, and won't be worth taking.  So that leaves us with what secondaries?   That's the puzzle we have to solve.   We got more lethal, but so did a lot of other armies.   

 

So, 6 slots... I'm leaning towards DW for obsec.   But I'm excited to see the ways to we score points.  Raw power doesn't translate to more games won,  but it helps. 

[phandaal]

3x3 MM Attack Bike squads, 3x bike squads with attack bike attachments. 2x Talonmasters, one with Arbiter's Gaze.

 

Then whatever else you want. In recent tournaments, Dark Angels players have used Infiltrators to go out and get their Stubborn Defiance objective. Unless I am misreading, only Troops have baseline sticky objectives in Arks of Omen. That is another point in favor of not taking a pure Ravenwing detachment.

 

Inceptors are another viable option, dropping in to help delete things with Dark Age.

[FarFromSam]

2x10 DWT,

3x3 MMAB

1X6 P. Inceptors

2x5 infiltrators

 

Ic is where things get tricky

Talonmaster Talonmaster, or talonmaster then apothecary+ancient, orrr chaplain on bike, apoth+ancient and another toss away unit.  It's similar to my pre AAO only now the DW termies don't score.

 

[phandaal]

Maybe Sammael and Talonmasters. Reroll ones on all of those heavy weapons would be nice.

[Khornestar]

Didn’t want to clutter the forum by making a post list for this, but I’m going to be running an army of all juggernaut riding World Eaters and using ravenwing rules.

 

Only bikers are in this list, not going to use any infantry or vehicles. I wanted to pack as many bikers/juggernauts in the list as possible.

 

Is it dead in the water? It’s 100% for fun but doesn’t seem like the worst list of all time:

 

AoO detachment Elites selection, 2000 points:

 

HQ: 
 

Chapter Master on Bike: Thunder hammer, Storm shield

Primaris Master of Sanctity on Bike

 

ELITES:

 

Black Knights x8: Corvus hammers, Plasma talons 

Black Knights x8: Corvus hammers, Plasma talons

Black Knights x8: Corvus hammers, Plasma talons

Ravenwing Chief Apothecary: Plasma talon

Ravenwing Ancient: Plasma talon 

Ravenwing Chapter Champion: Relic - Blade of Triumph, Plasma talon

FAST ATTACK:

 

Bikers x8: 2x melta gun, Thunder hammer
Bikers x8: 2x melta gun, Thunder hammer

Bikers x8: 2x melta gun, Thunder hammer

Edited January 23, 2023 by Khornestar

[WrathOfTheLion]

Do you know what you're playing against? I thinking the list might have a hard time dealing with larger hordes, but that might not be a problem if you're not playing against that.

[Karhedron]

48 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Do you know what you're playing against? I thinking the list might have a hard time dealing with larger hordes, but that might not be a problem if you're not playing against that.

 

There are 24 bikes in that list which is 96 bolter shots within 12". Hopefully that should be adequate for horde clearance. Having said that, hordes do not seem popular in the meta at the moment.

[WrathOfTheLion]

21 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

There are 24 bikes in that list which is 96 bolter shots within 12". Hopefully that should be adequate for horde clearance. Having said that, hordes do not seem popular in the meta at the moment.

I don't know if the meta is something we should be considering in a game about taking world eater juggernauts as Ravenwing for the fun of it. Never know when there's a big blob or two of poxwalkers or something like that.

[phandaal]

A mixed-wing Dark Angels list just made it to the top 4 of a major tournament this past weekend. Basically what we discussed here.

 

Ravenwing melta and Talonmaster, Infiltrators, Deathwing anvil.